WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 4

Chul · 08/21/08, 8:13 PM

One suggestion would be to add how much self healing a pet will be doing during a fight (i.e. with Improved Leader of the Pack and Loyalty).

brigwyn · 08/21/08, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I believe the same cast-queue system that allowed Mages/Warlocks to ignore latency should be in play for Hunters. It's easy enough to test that on Beta. If it is there, there is no need to model latency/lag/spamspeed or anything like that. (Man, they are eliminating all the crap that made writing the original spreadsheet such a pain in the ass. I picked a lousy time to retire.

)

I think you might be right on that point that the cast-queue system is in play. But not entirely sure abou that. But I think this is purely in the Beta and not the existing BC so I can't test it. I'll ask at the Lodge to see if anyone there can test it and report the findings.

As for he modeling latency/lag/spam speed.. Even with the cast-queue system wouldn't this still be someone it play? There might be a ton of shots that either clip or just don't get fired if the mob dies or goes los during the fight. not sure just a thought.

As for your retiring.. your right. that was a big mistake .but i'm sure you'd be welcomed back with open arms. ;P

Shandara · 08/22/08, 3:46 AM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I believe the same cast-queue system that allowed Mages/Warlocks to ignore latency should be in play for Hunters. It's easy enough to test that on Beta. If it is there, there is no need to model latency/lag/spamspeed or anything like that. (Man, they are eliminating all the crap that made writing the original spreadsheet such a pain in the ass. I picked a lousy time to retire.

)

If someone in beta could test this then..?

I thought the cast-queue system affected spells with a cast time, so you could send the command to cast a spell slightly before the previous cast was done.

What I want to know is how much (if anything) latency adds after the GCD before a new instant or fast cast (like steady shot with enough haste) gets through.

It's easy enough to test on live, hit rapid fire and disable any UI error message addons. During steady shot cast you will get 'Another spell is casting' spammed in the combat log. After it has finished but before the GCD is done you will 'Not yet recovered', same as trying to start a steady shot right after an instant like Arcane Shot.

In short I want to know 2 things on beta:
a) The minimum time between 2 instants
b) The minimum time between steady shots

Indora · 08/22/08, 7:59 AM

Here's an example with 200ms Latency, 50ms avg. SpamSpeed & 1.4 Seconds Steadycast:

0.0 click. The gcd starts.
0.2 steady cast starts
1.5 gcd ends
1.55 click2. The gcd starts, although the previous steady is still casting!
1.6 steady completed
1.75 Second steady starts

In short I want to know 2 things on beta:
a) The minimum time between 2 instants
b) The minimum time between steady shots

At the moment it's like that: (and I'm pretty sure it's the same in beta)
a) 1.5 seconds. Assuming inhuman SpamSpeed.
b) 1.5 seconds / casttime if it's >1.5 seconds. Assuming inhuman SpamSpeed and < ~500ms Latency.

edit:

You claim there's a 'spamming delay' which increases the GCD.

I agree on that. While you the GCD has not recovered your commands don't go through yet, but once it IS finished your next command will
a) Come late because of human reaction time even with spamming (i.e. spamming delay)
b) will have to reach the server (i.e. latency)

This is what you meant, no?

You misunderstand point b. There is a delay until the information reaches the server, however, the gcd is controlled client-side and starts instantly, even if the client hasn't recieved the 'ok' message from the server.
(--> Spamming Steady Shot will result in 1,5 + Spamming Delay Seconds per Shot)

If it is there, there is no need to model latency/lag/spamspeed or anything like that.

SpamSpeed is important, as it lengthens the gcd and thus reduces your Specials per Second.
Lag can be ignored, as long as it isn't extremely high. This is because you can't start the next gcd if a cast has more than ~500ms left (I don't know the exact value).

Another example with 200ms latency, 50ms SpamSpeed & 1.7 Seconds Steadycast:

0.0 click, gcd 1 start
0.2 Steadycast 1 start
1.5 gcd 1 end
1.55 click 2, gcd 2 start
1.75 steady 2 wants to start, but has to wait until the previous cast is over.
1.9 steadycast 1 end
1.9 steadycast 2 start (No delay! Neither because of lag, nor of SpamSpeed or anything else)
3.05 gcd 2 end
3.1 click, gcd 3 start
3.6 steadycast 2 end
3.6 steadycast 3 start
4.6 gcd 3 end
4.65 click, gcd 4 not starting yet, as there are more than 500ms left on previous cast
4.7 click, gcd still can't be started
4.75 click, gcd still can't be started
4.8 another click, <= 500 ms left, gcd 4 start
5.3 steadycast 3 end
5.3 steadycast 4 starts
6.3 gcd 4 end
6.35 click, gcd 5 can't start yet
6.4 click, gcd 5 can't start yet
6.45 click, gcd 5 can't start yet
6.5 click, <= 500ms until end of previous cast left, gcd 5 start
7.0 steadycast 4 ends
7.0 steadycast 5 start
....

The first 2-3 gcds look like you can still shoot with an 1.55 frequence, although the casttime is 1.7 seconds, what is somehow confusing. But once the 500ms buffer time is completely used, you're shooting one steady every 1.7 seconds. The 'saved' time from the beginning results in 500ms wasted time after the last gcd.

Maybe you can better understand this when I try to 'draw' it for you:

GCD (1.5 seconds, 100 ms SpamSpeed)         delayed          delayed
|-------------| |-------------| |-------------|  |-------------|   |-------------| 
Steady (1.8 seconds)
|----------------||----------------||----------------||----------------||----------------|

Fortunately there's a way to exploit this effect:
Having a > 1.5 seconds Steady casttime doesn't mean you have to shoot less than 1 Special every 1.5 Seconds.
All you have to do is to rotate steadys with instants.

GCD (1.5 seconds, 0 ms SpamSpeed)
|-------------||-------------||-------------||-------------||-------------|
Steadycast (1.7 seconds)
|----------------|            |----------------|            |----------------|             
Instant (~~)
                  |                             |

This way, the casting time reaches into the next gcd, without delaying it. But as it isn't possible to buffer more than 500ms, you can't shoot more than one (or maybe two) steadys in a chain. Shooting a shot with <1 second casttime allows you to start using the buffer time again.

Even in german, it's difficult for me to explain these things, I hope you understand everything. :|

Shandara · 08/22/08, 9:46 AM

Thanks for the clarification. It should basically mean latency is irrelevant if it's small enough not to eat up your spell-queue buffer.

The 500ms buffer you talk of is the spell-queue and indeed I believe it's around that size.

Unfortunately, the way the long cooldowns work it's not always possible to alternate steadies and instants. I'll have to think about it a bit and see if I can find a way to represent it without going back to a shot rotation (although implementing a shot rotation like Cheeky's is now much easier when we don't have keep track of the auto-shot timer.

Edit:
As an aside, the current model I have basically assumes you click right as the spell ends and not in the spell-queue, thus giving every shot +latency.

Juggernaught · 08/22/08, 10:27 AM

Noticed a few of the value drop down ranges in the Cunning Pet talent tree are wrong;

Boar's Speed
Spiked Collar
Avoidance
Lionhearted
Carrion Feeder
Great Resistance
Cornered
Wolverine Bite
Roar of Recovery
Bullheaded

Also Spiked Collar is listed as "Spiker Collar"

Shandara · 08/22/08, 2:29 PM

Update:

- Lock and Load is now a 10%/20%/30% chance to proc
- Added %-based mana values for silencing shot, explosive shot and chimera shot
- Serpent Sting now scales with 20% of your RAP, instead of 10%
- Explosive shot base damage/scaling changed to 345+20% RAP and ticks for a quarter of that
- Noxious Stings implemented
- Survivalist now increases stamina by 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% instead of Health
- Aspect of the Beast now increases pet AP by 10%
- Kill Command changed to a 60 second cooldown
- Implemented Rapid Fire
- Reworked shot rotation logic to more closely resemble reality, abilities don't fire more often than would be possible with GCDs
- added Wasp pet family and Sting family skill (assumed not to supposed to stack with Faerie Fire)
- added Worm pet family and Acid Spit family skill (stacks 5 times and assumed not to stack with Sunder Armor)
- added Spore Bat pet family and Spore Cloud family skill (stacks with other debuffs)
- Changed a lot of pet skills to latest version from wowhead (most have been normalized to 6 ranks at level 1/16/32/48/64/80)
- fixed dropdown values of Cunning pet talent tree
- Added lvl 75 vendor ammo and new wotLK engineering ammo
- added WotLK scopes
- added new steady shot low-level rank
- Added in Glyphs (Aimed Shot, Arcane Shot, Aspect of Beast, Bestial Wrath, Aspect of Hawk, Multi-Shot, Rapid Fire, Serpent Sting, Steady Shot)
- Saving profile now also saves Glyphs
- Added Unleashed Rage buff (select uptime)

The shot rotation currently assumes you wait with pressing your button until the spell/ability has finished casting. It doesn't take into use the spell-queue. Still working on that.

If I forgot any changes today's patch brought, let me know.

Ravenfire · 08/22/08, 4:45 PM

Shandara,

2 errors and 1 technicallity with the newest sheet.

The errors: With Glyph of Serpent Sting selected the spam rate of Serpent Sting fails to change and neither does the damage Serpent Sting deals, although the duration of Serpent Sting does correctly increase. The extra 3 seconds basically means that Serpent Sting goes from [(total damage / 5) * 5 ticks] to [(total damage / 5) * 6 ticks], thus basically gaining 20% more damage per a full duration application. The extra 3 seconds also means the time between applications becomes 18 seconds from 15 seconds.

The technicallity is that on the Calculations tab you have Serpent sting as having a cooldown of 15 seconds. This is false as it CAN be spammed at the rate of the GCD, now obviously doing so yeilds 0 damage (since it'll never tick) and wastes tons of mana if done against a single target. Against multple mobs you can easily tab-sting-tab-sting-etc-etc.. and have 1 serpent sting per mob. I'd suggest you change the "Spammed DPS" calculation to be "SerpentStingDamage/SerpentStingDuration". This also needs to be reflected in the "Shot Rotation" tab as a non-MM hunter will "spam" Serpent Sting based on its Duration, not its cooldown.

Edit: In theory this Glyph SHOULD cause an increase in Chimera shot damage for a MM hunter by approximately 0.4*1 ticks worth of Serpent Sting. A meh glyph for MM's and OK glyph for Surv's, but I think both MM and Surv Hunters wouldn't mind it being changed to a straight +20% damage. MM's would get the same effect from Chimera as currently, but would also gain damage from the actual ticks they see before refreshing Serpent Sting via Chimera; While Surv hunters would also gain +20% damage but still maintain a slightly higher proc chance for LnL (chance to proc every 15 seconds vs. every 18 seconds).

Shandara · 08/22/08, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenfire

The errors: With Glyph of Serpent Sting selected the spam rate of Serpent Sting fails to change and neither does the damage Serpent Sting deals, although the duration of Serpent Sting does correctly increase. The extra 3 seconds basically means that Serpent Sting goes from [(total damage / 5) * 5 ticks] to [(total damage / 5) * 6 ticks], thus basically gaining 20% more damage per a full duration application. The extra 3 seconds also means the time between applications becomes 18 seconds from 15 seconds.

This is a bit odd, since I put in quite a bit of time to make sure the 3 seconds extra would work. The thing is, it's basically an extra 1 tick, so the DPS doesn't change, but as you say the 'use rate' of Serpent Sting should change.

And it should, at least in my settings the frequency of use on the Shot Rotation properly changes to the new duration, despite the 'cooldown' being 15 seconds. The same goes for the Mana Per Second column, it properly shows the decrease in mana use.

I agree that 'cooldown' is a bit of a strange word in combination with this sting. But it's the easiest way to limit the frequency of Serpent Sting without building in more exceptions in the logic behind the shot rotation.

On the calculations tab it is indeed in error, since it doesn't count the extra tick of damage.

I'll reorder where the damage increase is calculated so it makes more sense (it's done halfway somewhere now, which is why the discrepancy appeared).

Edit:
This should automatically fix the Chimera shot bug so it gains the extra damage from the glyph as well.

Ravenfire · 08/22/08, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

This is a bit odd, since I put in quite a bit of time to make sure the 3 seconds extra would work. The thing is, it's basically an extra 1 tick, so the DPS doesn't change, but as you say the 'use rate' of Serpent Sting should change.

And it should, at least in my settings the frequency of use on the Shot Rotation properly changes to the new duration, despite the 'cooldown' being 15 seconds. The same goes for the Mana Per Second column, it properly shows the decrease in mana use.

I agree that 'cooldown' is a bit of a strange word in combination with this sting. But it's the easiest way to limit the frequency of Serpent Sting without building in more exceptions in the logic behind the shot rotation.

On the calculations tab it is indeed in error, since it doesn't count the extra tick of damage.

I'll reorder where the damage increase is calculated so it makes more sense (it's done halfway somewhere now, which is why the discrepancy appeared).

Edit:
This should automatically fix the Chimera shot bug so it gains the extra damage from the glyph as well.

Ahh I see.... the Shot Rotation tab has every thing correct except for an accurate "cooldown" and correct damage dealt. The Calculations tab, however, in addition to the "inaccurate" cooldown and total damage done also fails to reflect the new MPS via a change in the DPM (which the Shot Rotation tab DOES do).

Shandara · 08/22/08, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenfire

Ahh I see.... the Shot Rotation tab has every thing correct except for an accurate "cooldown" and correct damage dealt. The Calculations tab, however, in addition to the "inaccurate" cooldown and total damage done also fails to reflect the new MPS via a change in the DPM (which the Shot Rotation tab DOES do).

Exactly, I merely forgot about the presentation. Should be fixed next version.

Indora · 08/24/08, 7:53 AM

The result of 3 hours without anything to do:

-Talents!C28 & K27 are protected
-default Buffprofiles aren't compatible
-Buffs!C21 & C49 are protected

calculations!
-E79 is weird. Shooting with a 2 second (<4 sec internal cd) frequency leads to enormous mana gain

In addition, it ignores average delay between end of internal cooldown & hit.
Here's my suggestion for this cell: =E78/(E77+1/E75/2)
(E75 should be Shots per Second then)

-H30 should be =Sum(H18;H29) instead of =Sum(H18:H29)

-Your Wild-Quiver calculation ignores increased auto shot frequence
-H34-H37 should be normalized (*2.8 instead of *RangedWeaponSpeed)
-H60 & H66 should use "AutoShotBaseDamage" instead of "AutoShotDamage", which includes Wild Quiver & Modifiers
-Chimera Shot's Serpent-Sting based Damage isn't increased by imp. SS
-K10 should be RangedWeaponDamage instead of -Dps
-K104 doesn't include Damage Adjustments
-N7: Marked for Death increase the damage by 5%, not by 10%
-N30 (EW calculations) include serpent sting, which cannot crit
-N136 =|= N153 (with x/3 L&L)
-N161 should be seperated to Effective Bonus for Arcane shot & -Chimera Shot

-Your Cobra Strikes model doesn't include double-proccs, here's my suggestion:

Uptime = 1 - chance not to procc ^ attacks in 3 pet GCDs
= 1 - (1 - critchance * 0.6) ^ ((1/steady-frequency + 1/arcane-frequency + 1/kill-shot-frequency) * 4.5)

Because of Kill Shot's high cooldown of 35 seconds, I think it's possible to ignore his possible higher critchance.
edit: it isn't possible to have Cobra Strikes & Sniper Training at the same time anyway <.<
In addition, N146 doesn't include possible less Specials per Second because of missing focus.

Well, that's all for now, haven't looked into pet Calculations yet.

Ah, I've forgotten the most important thing: please change these colors!

Shandara · 08/24/08, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by Indora

The result of 3 hours without anything to do:

-Talents!C28 & K27 are protected
-default Buffprofiles aren't compatible
-Buffs!C21 & C49 are protected

calculations!
-E79 is weird. Shooting with a 2 second (<4 sec internal cd) frequency leads to enormous mana gain

In addition, it ignores average delay between end of internal cooldown & hit.
Here's my suggestion for this cell: =E78/(E77+1/E75/2)
(E75 should be Shots per Second then)

-H30 should be =Sum(H18;H29) instead of =Sum(H18:H29)

-Your Wild-Quiver calculation ignores increased auto shot frequence
-H34-H37 should be normalized (*2.8 instead of *RangedWeaponSpeed)
-H60 & H66 should use "AutoShotBaseDamage" instead of "AutoShotDamage", which includes Wild Quiver & Modifiers
-Chimera Shot's Serpent-Sting based Damage isn't increased by imp. SS
-K10 should be RangedWeaponDamage instead of -Dps
-K104 doesn't include Damage Adjustments
-N7: Marked for Death increase the damage by 5%, not by 10%
-N30 (EW calculations) include serpent sting, which cannot crit
-N136 =|= N153 (with x/3 L&L)
-N161 should be seperated to Effective Bonus for Arcane shot & -Chimera Shot

-Your Cobra Strikes model doesn't include double-proccs, here's my suggestion:

Uptime = 1 - chance not to procc ^ attacks in 3 pet GCDs
= 1 - (1 - critchance * 0.6) ^ ((1/steady-frequency + 1/arcane-frequency + 1/kill-shot-frequency) * 4.5)

Because of Kill Shot's high cooldown of 35 seconds, I think it's possible to ignore his possible higher critchance.
In addition, N146 doesn't include possible less Specials per Second because of missing focus.

Well, that's all for now, haven't looked into pet Calculations yet.

Cheers,

The H18;H29 thing luckily didn't change anything because it was all percentages, but that was quite a typo... heh.
The judgement of wisdom thing is just a placeholder really. I really should redo it. Rather than model it, it should just give xx mana every 4 seconds, since the chance to proc is apparently 100%.
Both Multi-shot and Steady Shot had errors in the normalization, thanks for noticing. I'll fix them for the next version.
Buffs should be fixed/changed next patch, been working on them to try and make them save/load faster
Are you sure about Marked for Death? The talent calculator says 2% damage/crit bonus for each talent point
Cobra Strikes will now use the average time for a pet special as opposed to just the pet GCD and will only use the rate for pet specials that can actually crit.
With the cobra uptime change, I actually looked closely at what I was doing and the uptime isn't used at all. Basically, once we know the uptime we know what part of the pet's special attacks is covered under Cobra Strikes and we can calculate the effective crit bonus. Basically, with an uptime of 33%, a third of your pet's specials should have a 100% crit rate, the other 2 the base crit rate. The combined crit rate should be 100%*Uptime + (100%-Uptime)*PetBaseCritChance. Subtract the pet base crit chance to find the bonus crit%.

As for the color scheme, I'm open to suggestions, I don't particularly like or dislike Cheeky's choices myself.

EDIT: The Judgement of Wisdom thing is confusing because it says mana per second rather than Mp5, it's fed back to the Buffs tab where all the Mp5 bonuses are gathered. The name of the calculation is in error, it should be 'Mana per 5 seconds'

EDIT#2:
On second thought, Judgement of wisdom should work like this:
1) You get a proc, internal cooldown starts
2) 4 secs later, internal cooldown ends
3) You need to fire a shot and it needs to hit, takes X time
4) you get another proc, total time elapsed 4+X

Mana gained is Y, mana gained per second is Y/(4+X)

Indora · 08/24/08, 9:25 AM

JoW: My suggested "model" is simply 4 seconds + average time from end of cooldown until you hit the target. That's more precise than just 4 seconds.
Marked for Death: Uh, you're right, it was 5%, now it's 10%.
The Cobra Strike Uptime is used in N149, but you calculated it again (N146/N145) instead of just using N147. ^^
Colors: I really dislike lurid colors. Apart from that every color is fine.

(Lists look great!)

edit:

EDIT#2:
On second thought, Judgement of wisdom should work like this:
1) You get a proc, internal cooldown starts
2) 4 secs later, internal cooldown ends
3) You need to fire a shot and it needs to hit, takes X time
4) you get another proc, total time elapsed 4+X

Mana gained is Y, mana gained per second is Y/(4+X)

That's exactly what I meant.

Shandara · 08/24/08, 10:20 AM

Update:

- Added Rhinos as pet family
- Reordered Serpent Sting damage calculation so that it shows up properly in the reference table on 'Shot Rotation'; also adds the bonus damage from the Glyph to Chimera Shot
- Calculate Attributes now calculates the haste rating needed to reach the soft cap and displays the dps gained from going +1 haste over the haste cap. The rating is the rating needed on TOP of your current gear.
- added froststorm breath
- added stamina/intellect scrolls to hunter buffs (stamina/intellect don't stack with priest/mage buffs)
- added WotLK scrolls, guesstimate for strength/agility (new ranks 30/35)
- You can change Separation Anxiety and Sniper Training range again
- fixed normalization of weapon damage/ammo damage for Multi-shot and Steady Shot
- Chimera shot's serpent sting damage bonus is affected by imp. Steady Shot now
- explosive shot ticks now are affected by all damage increasing talents/procs/buffs
- Cobra Strikes now uses the correct steady shot frequency
- Expose Weakness now uses the combined auto-shot rate with _critting_ specials rate, instead of overall specials rate
- Cobra strikes should now account for possible reprocs and only affects specials that can actually crit
- changed color scheme. Yellow = user input, brown = informative, red = titles/NYI

EDIT: And fixed JoW like discussed above, but forgot to write a change log entry about it.

EDIT2: Uploaded wrong version by mistake, should be correct now.