Scorpids fall way below, of course. Given the frequency / infrequency of Monstrous Bite stacks falling and Savage Rend being worthwhile or useless, looks like it's about a dead even heat with those four pets.
I assume Trauma/Mangle is included in those numbers? Without it I would assume Cats and Raptors to be quite a bit below the pack, making them highly situational pets. Good enough when it is there, but far from OK when there is no Mangle. And seeing the Mangle debuff is a little rarer than the CoE debuff I think it is safe to expect Cats to overall not be worth it (6.24% less pet-DPS even with Mangle is tough).
I have a quick question regarding this sheet.. first of all i have to say its very usefull..
I opened it with openoffice but it doesnt work.. however that aside i was looking at the future-Gear tab.
Can someone explain to me why Black Ice is the best DPS weapon for a hunter, over the Betrayer of Humanity axe?
or even the Cryptfiend polearm??
Yes this weapon has nice hitrating, but on all other aspects the other 2 weapons are better stats-wise.
So how/why is it that in the sheet.. black ice has more dps then Betrayer/cryptfiend?
I assume Trauma/Mangle is included in those numbers? Without it I would assume Cats and Raptors to be quite a bit below the pack, making them highly situational pets. Good enough when it is there, but far from OK when there is no Mangle. And seeing the Mangle debuff is a little rarer than the CoE debuff I think it is safe to expect Cats to overall not be worth it (6.24% less pet-DPS even with Mangle is tough).
Raptors are that close to devilsaurs because of the AP proc and not because of the DoT so lack of mangle does not hurt them as much as cats.
Nonetheless I think the Savage Rend proc is a bit overvalued in the spreadsheet as it is modeled as a damage adjustment instead of as a pet AP adjustment which means in the spreadsheet it amplifies base damage which it should not.
For MM it seems like cats are still the best pets, at least with mangle or trauma. Without it raptors are slightly better. Wasps are considerably better if you don't have a minor armor debuff in the raid.
This should alllow those with OpenOffice to be able to at least use the spreadsheet, even if the macros don't work.
I was just about to try this, when I discovered the version I had saved as .ods (which at first had Error:508 all over the place), upon reopening had no more errors... Very strange, but it works, I'm happy and I didn't even have to use this fix.
In any case, in my version this line is protected and therefor uneditable. If this is the case for others also, then try what I did: save as .ods sheet, close the sheet, reopen the sheet.
I have a quick question regarding this sheet.. first of all i have to say its very usefull..
I opened it with openoffice but it doesnt work.. however that aside i was looking at the future-Gear tab.
Can someone explain to me why Black Ice is the best DPS weapon for a hunter, over the Betrayer of Humanity axe?
or even the Cryptfiend polearm??
Yes this weapon has nice hitrating, but on all other aspects the other 2 weapons are better stats-wise.
So how/why is it that in the sheet.. black ice has more dps then Betrayer/cryptfiend?
looking forward reading your reply,
kind regards,
kashuu
That changes depending on your gear and talent....if you are below the hit cap or a bm, for example, than to hit takes a greater significance than all other stats (if you are BM the pets needs as much to hit as possible). In my case, black ice is 3rd, but is has moved up and down. It is just a tool to help you make choices.
I had an earlier post trying to figure out how to apply armor debuffs to bosses, and like an idiot, did not see how you had to use the modifier tab to properly apply sunders, etc.
After checking stuff out, and trying to figure out which pet to use after the patch since scorpions are no longer viable (a gorilla has higher dps), I took a peek at the cunning pets once again, being MM and still having some mana issues.
Roar of recovery still needs numbers, so if anyone in the ptr could pass along the scaling numbers (I know the author of the spreed sheet has requested assistance with this before), it would be great.
I did notice how spore clouds do not carry a dps figure, at least on the last versions of the spread sheet. Doing some real quick math, I figured it would add roughly about 9 dps by itself, without any raid/hunter buffs or talents, just spiked collar. Could anyone confirm that for me? Does the armor reduction still hold in conjunction with the other 2 categories of armor reduction (major+minor)?
Fully buffed, and with my current gear/build a cat comes out about 98 dps more than a spore bat, but the total dps difference is only 45.89, without adding anything for spore cloud. If the 9 dps figure is about right, I would say it would further increase the dps of the bat by roughly 20 to 25. Factor in Roar of recovery, and I think my total damage would surpass my total damage with a cat, and that is with RoR as it is now. Wouldn't it make the spore bat the most raid friendly pet for non BM hunters for it's armor debuff component?
I'm not sure how the modeling works exactly as I haven't delved into the sheet that much.
With my gear and spec (Surv) on the newest version of the sheet I'm showing a Raptor at 365.75 dps (no buffs) and a Sporebat at 357.13 dps (Spore Cloud #1, Smack #2). I saw it at 331.59 setting it at Spore Cloud #1, Wolverine Bite #2, Smack #3.
It seems odd to me that they would be that close. The ferocity should do at least 5% more just from their pet class modifier, where it looks like they're doing about 2.5% more.
It's interesting that Cunning pets are getting that close. It's adding 12% damage to them for Feeding Frenzy, which comes out right. I can't find anything wrong with the math. Might be an overall DPS increase to switch to a Cunning pet such as a Chimera and use that for Roar of Recovery.
Although it's still showing Wolverine Bite as a DPS loss.
I have some numbers using a level 80 Chimera against the heroic testing dummy on the PTR. Dummy was low health, so feeding frenzy was active, and ferocious inspiration procced as the pet crit, of course. Pet AP was 1408, Spellpower was 448. The "min" numbers may be a bit off because I messed up and went into viper during the test, which would have lowered the pet's AP. Test ran approximately 5 mins.
Min Avg Max
Melee
Hit 241 263 286
Crit 486 526 569
Bite
Hit 253 288 328
Crit 513 577 639
Froststorm Breath
Hit 336 434 509
Crit 569 637 725
Wolverine Bite
Hit 585 603 622
Crit 1171 1196 1209
Posted earlier, I think the dps loss from wolverine bite is a product of the average. In reality I think it will be a dps boost when it does happen, but it will most likely happen a bit less than what the spread sheet is averaging it out to be.
Did any one had a chance to run some damage numbers on spore cloud?
Posted earlier, I think the dps loss from wolverine bite is a product of the average. In reality I think it will be a dps boost when it does happen, but it will most likely happen a bit less than what the spread sheet is averaging it out to be.
I don't see why using average numbers would bring it down. The average Wolverine Bite hit is larger than the average crit for bite, and is only lower than the average crit for Froststorm Breath. There's no evidence to suggest that the crit rate for Wolverine Bite is any lower than the others (if anything, it's higher than Froststorm Breath, which possibly uses spell crit) so the average damage for WB as modified by crit rate will always be higher than anything else. There shouldn't be any way for dps to go down by incorporating it. Replacing any special with a WB, on average, should be a damage increase.
That's assuming that WB conflicts with the other specials by tying up the GCD, and it doesn't even account for the fact that it cannot be dodged or parried, unlike the focus dumps and physical specials.
Nonetheless I think the Savage Rend proc is a bit overvalued in the spreadsheet as it is modeled as a damage adjustment instead of as a pet AP adjustment which means in the spreadsheet it amplifies base damage which it should not.
The actual buff it gives is Savagery - Spell - World of Warcraft , which does in fact increase base damage rather than AP as the savage rend tooltip states.
Wolverine Bite is causing a DPS decrease because it isn't added to the pet's DPS total, but it still decreases focus dump frequency. It isn't a family skill and it isn't a focus dump, so it just doesn't have a box in the DPS breakdown at the top of the pet tab. The dps total at the bottom of the rotation window is calculating it correctly, what I did was just replaced the "family skill" and "<focus dump>" parts of the DPS breakdown with just "skills" and linked directly to the rotation total.
Cunning pets seem to be doing really well in the spreadsheet despite any bugs with Wolverine Bite. I have Wind Serpents and Chimera's competing with Devilsaurs dps-wise. That's encouraging.
Cunning pets seem to be doing really well in the spreadsheet despite any bugs with Wolverine Bite. I have Wind Serpents and Chimera's competing with Devilsaurs dps-wise. That's encouraging.
Spellpower -- okay thanks for the clear explanation. As I've said before, we think the way pets scale from both the hunter (or other class) and the player's buffs and then their own buffs is just complicated and leads to weird cases. As long as the Spirit Beast is competitive now (even if his AP buffs don't translate to damage) we're happy. Long term, we need a better solution to the entire system.
---
For comparison:
Rank 6 Sting (Wasp): 75 Nature damage, 0.049 coefficient, 6 sec cooldown, plus the existing armor debuff (that does not stack with Faerie Fire). As a Ferocity pet, the wasp now has 10% extra damage and 5% extra health.
This is a bit confusing. The spreadsheet suggests sting uses spell power, which GC admits is still a problem with pet abilities. But then he gives an example that suggests sting scales directly from pet AP. Are we supposed to assume sting scales with AP, not spell power, or is this a mix up?
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
This is a bit confusing. The spreadsheet suggests sting uses spell power, which GC admits is still a problem with pet abilities. But then he gives an example that suggests sting scales directly from pet AP. Are we supposed to assume sting scales with AP, not spell power, or is this a mix up?
Honestly I don't think he knows exactly what is being talked about. He has the numbers but not the proces for getting there.
I think that Blizzard is doing away with Spellpower based attacked for any attack that are obviously not spells but still work a bit like them (poisons, Sting and the like), much like our own Arcane Shot and Serpent Sting, or Rogue poisons. So Sting is finally an AP attack... or so one can hope. It would only make sense since there is nothing spellpowerish about it, unlike abilities like Lightning Breath and Froststorm Breath.
4.9% AP scaling would make it less powerful than the pure DPS abilities, which in turn is good, as it makes Wasps great when there is no Druid (using a Warlock would not be great for that), but the pure DPS pets should be better in a perfect situation... Depending on Cats and Mangle of course.
Rake will be a real tough one to balance. If they balance it with Mangle in mind then the Cat is poor overall. If not then the Cat is overpowered overall. If put in between then perhaps it is good...
With no gear or talent changes when switching from 81a to 81c, Black Ice becomes #1 2-hander with Journey 2nd and Humanity third. My Hyline Helm of the Sniper jumps to #2 only 26 dps less than the Blue Aspect helm.
Were the changes that dramatic between versions?
Edit: I clicked on the Calc button on the Overview tab and it chnaged things a little. My helm is back down to #4 but Black Ice is still #1
With no gear or talent changes when switching from 81a to 81c, Black Ice becomes #1 2-hander with Journey 2nd and Humanity third. My Hyline Helm of the Sniper jumps to #2 only 26 dps less than the Blue Aspect helm.
Were the changes that dramatic between versions?
Edit: I clicked on the Calc button on the Overview tab and it chnaged things a little. My helm is back down to #4 but Black Ice is still #1
So far, what has jumped at me is that gear with haste has been downgraded, since Steady shot has a component for getting "haste" capped. Since SS will do less damage, getting shooting off faster does not carry as much weight. I will take a peek at it when I have a chance tomorrow, just a brief observation, since my tunic of masked suffering was downgraded from 1 or 2, to 6-7, below even the AC chest.
it seems that if I have [Eternal Belt Buckle] inserted spreadsheet
won't let me change the gem in that slot.
Noticed this with [Torn Web Wrapping] that had no sockets to begin with.
Am I doing something wrong or does the spreadsheet miss this feature?
The [Eternal Belt Buckle] qualifies as a Gear Enchant and should be chosen in the Belt's enchant slot. Once you've done this, one of the slots will show up as "Prismatic Socket X" and you are then able to choose a Gem for it.
The feet enchant "Greater Assault" should give 32 AP, not 35 (this is also preventing it from importing correctly).
I wanted to post that for quite some time now, but I thought that this was known and will be fixed soon.
Well it seems to me that to many people are using Icewalker
01/07/09, 11:25 AM
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