Alot of the stuff (BoJ, Sunwell, t5/6) is surpisingly good. There will still be some items, as you said, that will be hard to replace. (even at 80) For now, until we start seeing more gear and itemization you might leave them in.
If you read the post carefully, I say 'when WotLK raiding hits'. I have no plans to ditch TBC gear right away. But anything pre-Sunwell will probably be replaced when you start Naxx10/25 (excepting Trinkets).
@Chul:
The non-averaging of trinkets/talents was only useful if you'd put them in your shot rotation manually though. Since the current sheet doesn't use an actual rotation, there's no way of doing the effects manually.
Thanks for the bug reports!
Edit:
After thinking about it for a while, Rampage does exactly the same as LotP. Except for the fact that it only lasts 10 seconds. The chance for a fury warrior NOT to crit in a 10 second window is fairly small.
Assume a 40% crit rate for the warrior and doing 1 attack/special per second (probably a lowball figure what with dual-wielding and having instant specials), you'd have a (1-0,4)^10 chance NOT to crit, or 0,6%.
So I'll cop out and just lump it with Leader of the Pack instead of making a separate buff for it. They don't stack anyway so it's a win-win situation!
@Chul:
The non-averaging of trinkets/talents was only useful if you'd put them in your shot rotation manually though. Since the current sheet doesn't use an actual rotation, there's no way of doing the effects manually.
When you're testing, you don't want too many variables so disabling various trinkets, racials and spells becomes handy. For example, when we start really doing DPS checks against the target dummies, I want to be able to turn off as much variability as possible, including the averaging and check the average damage of shots against the spreadsheet.
Also, it helps to check if the spreadsheet is calculating your stats correctly (which makes it hard when the RAP from trinkets and racials needs to be manually removed from the spreadsheet RAP to see if it matches your character sheet).
So think of it as a way to test the spreadsheet. If it is too hard to put back it, don't worry too much, but I personally would find it handy.
Originally Posted by Skillstep
Why is it that other classes feel whole and simple and fluid yet hunter feels like directing a symphony as a paraplegic midget with tourettes?
Frequency of pet abilities should probably consider the GCD. For example, an ability with a 10s cooldown can only really be cast every 10.5s due to the GCD of the pet.
Can other mana costing spell/abilties be included somehow, for example, Bestial Wrath? It's not much, but it all adds up.
Acid Spit (aka pet Sunder Armour) and Sting (aka pet FF/CoW) armour reductions could lower the targets armour if they are in the pets rotation, and their other non-stacking equivalents aren't selected.
Gear Planner bug: Open up the spreadsheet (probably best if it is freshly downloaded just in case), uncheck Leather->Burning Crusade and also 5-man content. Hit Ranged Weapons and 'None' and 'Custom' are shown as #3 and #4 on the list even though it lists their dps as zero. The first time I was playing around with it, I got them both to #1 and #2 which is why I saw the bug.
Originally Posted by Skillstep
Why is it that other classes feel whole and simple and fluid yet hunter feels like directing a symphony as a paraplegic midget with tourettes?
What do you guys think? Personally I feel gear from these instances is basically obsolete anyway when WotLK raiding hits:
* TBC 5-man/quest gear
* Karahzan
* Gruul's Lair
* Magtheridon
* Tempest Keep
* The Eye
* Mount Hyjal
* Black Temple
Exceptions would be trinkets mostly. And maybe 1 or 2 special items.
Obsolete doesn't mean they won't be used for months yet. Not everyone's going to hit 80 immediately and focus on LK raiding. As long as it doesn't hurt your updates to leave the old stuff in, I'd keep them around.
In Pet Calc tab, spiked collar is not working for tenacity tree. It is referencing the wrong value. Set to K9 should be M7.
Would it be possible based on pet family to ignore other trees or grey them out. For example when comparing pets from differing families i.e. Tenacity vs Ferocity it's going to be annoying to change the pet, reset talents, readd talents. I'd imagine i'd have default values in how I spend my talents for each tree that won't be changing so ideally i'd just put them all in and have the ones not relevant ignored.
So Talent Points left/spent would only work on the active pet tree based on pet. Pet calculations would also change to check current pet family. i.e. rough code for spiked collar example If Pet!C4=Ferocity then 1+G9 or if ....
When you're testing, you don't want too many variables so disabling various trinkets, racials and spells becomes handy. For example, when we start really doing DPS checks against the target dummies, I want to be able to turn off as much variability as possible, including the averaging and check the average damage of shots against the spreadsheet.
Also, it helps to check if the spreadsheet is calculating your stats correctly (which makes it hard when the RAP from trinkets and racials needs to be manually removed from the spreadsheet RAP to see if it matches your character sheet).
So think of it as a way to test the spreadsheet. If it is too hard to put back it, don't worry too much, but I personally would find it handy.
This is a good suggestion and I'll work on it.
What abilities to consider though. So far I can think of, these are User-triggered things:
* Trinkets/Gear procs
* Bestial Wrath
* Ferocious Inspiration (well, controllable as in recalling your pet)
* Call of the Wild (alternatively you could just turn it off in the pet rotation
Other candidates (uncontrollable procs)
* Improved Steady Shot
* Wild Quiver
* Cobra Strikes (pet damage only so less interesting since FI is disabled too)
* IaotH and DST (don't affect shot damage, just DPS)
* Lock and Load (doesn't really mess with damage figures of shots, though)
* All mana-regen talents/abilities (don't really apply since we're talking about shot damage testing)
* Expose Weakness (uptime usually high enough not to mess with calculations)
* Master Tactician (only improves crit chance so doesn't mess with damage ranges)
I guess the idea is to switch of random/variable modifications to shot damage so it becomes easier to see average damage and match it in-game.
Obsolete doesn't mean they won't be used for months yet. Not everyone's going to hit 80 immediately and focus on LK raiding. As long as it doesn't hurt your updates to leave the old stuff in, I'd keep them around.
I hit level 77 and gained the following:
1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 2 int, 2 spi, 129 health and 196 mana
Strength, agility, and stamina all conitune to follow the predicted pattern. Intellect and Spirit obviously don't and will have to be noted on a per level basis. A major change to my previous data, I just assumed that the health and mana gains where base gains. I now know that it was a mistake to assume such. The health/mana gains you see when you ding are total gains. To get the base gains you need to subtract the base stat gains, so for level 77 my actual base gains were:
1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 2 int, 2 spi, 109 health and 166 mana
Re-doing the other two levels i have proper data on:
76: 1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 1 int, 1 spi, 108 health and 166 mana
75: 1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 1 int, 1 spi, 107 health and 167 mana
Base health increases appear to increase 1 per level and base mana increases appears to be rather flat though it does appear to vary some. I should have caught this sooner but the Base mana cost of the few spells i was double checking my calculations against weren't off enought for me to notice (knowing the mana cost of chimera shot as being in the 640's for lvl 74 is different then knowing that it cost exactly 647 instead of 643).
I hit level 77 and gained the following:
1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 2 int, 2 spi, 129 health and 196 mana
Strength, agility, and stamina all conitune to follow the predicted pattern. Intellect and Spirit obviously don't and will have to be noted on a per level basis. A major change to my previous data, I just assumed that the health and mana gains where base gains. I now know that it was a mistake to assume such. The health/mana gains you see when you ding are total gains. To get the base gains you need to subtract the base stat gains, so for level 77 my actual base gains were:
1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 2 int, 2 spi, 109 health and 166 mana
Re-doing the other two levels i have proper data on:
76: 1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 1 int, 1 spi, 108 health and 166 mana
75: 1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 1 int, 1 spi, 107 health and 167 mana
Base health increases appear to increase 1 per level and base mana increases appears to be rather flat though it does appear to vary some. I should have caught this sooner but the Base mana cost of the few spells i was double checking my calculations against weren't off enought for me to notice (knowing the mana cost of chimera shot as being in the 640's for lvl 74 is different then knowing that it cost exactly 647 instead of 643).
I think the Int/Spi values are probably rounding errors. It must be somewhere between 1 and 2 so every few levels a +2 value pops up.
Big update:
- Armory import now clears enchants/gems properly again
- TSA, Abomination's Might and similar AP %-increasing talents now don't stack anymore
- Fixed gear planner ranged weapon bug
- Pet skill rotation now limits use of abilities to the GCD
- New option 'Disable Averages' on settings and results. Setting it to 'Yes' will remove the effects of procs and averaged out abilities/talents (like Bestial Wrath and Ferocious Inspiration) from all calculations
- Currently affected abilities/skills: Bestial Wrath, Ferocious Inspirtation, Call of the Wild, Gear procs, Orc Bloodfury, Rapid Fire
- You can now save up to 5 talent specs, exporting and importing them should work as well. You can not name the specs (yet)
- Greatly speeded up the saving/loading of buff profiles
- Ranged Weapon Gear planner now only checks those weapons that correspond to the drop locations you selected. This should hopefully cut down the calculation time a little.
- Option 'Automatic Spell Selection'. Selects spell ranks based on level.
- Great Stamina, Natural Armor, Spiked Collar and Cobra Reflexes are now mutually exclusive for the pet talent trees, so points in other trees don't increase them
I made a lot of changes under the hood (mostly cleaning up stuff, still a lot to do), so I might have broken less obvious stuff.
This is a great spreadsheet. My only suggestion is that there is another offshoot of Cheeky's spreadsheet being updated (pre-WotLK) but it has a very similar name when you download it. I know this is a small request, but would it be possible for the file to be renamed a little differently when it is downloaded? Maybe add "WotLK" in the name?
Still a bug with spiked collar for tenacity referencing the wrong value. Not in the same row as for the other trees so blood of the rhino is counting as the spiked collar value in calc at the moment.
Still a bit of work that could be done with making the pet talent trees mutually exclusive across all values. Basically just mean putting the if Family=Feoricity etc... in all the other calc checks and making the talent point count check on only the active tree as well.
Dunno if helps but could prob just do the work and list the changes? i.e. In Cell C4 change the formula to this etc... just so takes a while longer for you to burn out
This is already in the next version. As for the Spiked Collar bug, it'll teach me actually check the row of a cell before changing the column!
The rest of the pet talents are either exclusive to a tree or not implemented (because they are not DPS-related) so I'm not sure what could be gained by making changes to them.
Also, you may want to add in the target dummies in the target selection list. Someone from Beta will have to give you the armour of them (supposedly at least one now has armour ).
Originally Posted by Skillstep
Why is it that other classes feel whole and simple and fluid yet hunter feels like directing a symphony as a paraplegic midget with tourettes?
One thing which would be handy to see is the average damage of a non-crit and crit for each shot, so we can compare what the spreadsheet calculates compared to what WWS shows us. For example, we do our rotations against the target dummy, generate a WWS and compare the average non-crit in the WWS to the spreadsheet etc. Currently it would be hard to see if the spreadsheet damage calculation of a shot is correct without doing a significant number of shots since everything is averaged out.
There are two ways this could be done:
Simply add two new columns in the Reference table of the Shot Rotation tab (you could even add a third and list the expected crit rate for the shot)
Add two new Control Settings:
Ignore misses/resists: Yes/No
Use crit rate of: 0%/100%/Gear%
The first option is probably the nicest.
Originally Posted by Skillstep
Why is it that other classes feel whole and simple and fluid yet hunter feels like directing a symphony as a paraplegic midget with tourettes?
For completeness sake on buffs, rogues have an equivalent of Blood Frenzy and Heart of the Crusader called Blood Poisoning and Master Poisoner respectively.
EDIT:
Also noticed:
- Wowhead shows Feeding Frenzy is now 6%/12% rather than 20%/40%. Not sure when that happened...
- The change for 'Pet skill rotation now limits use of abilities to the GCD' is missing for the first spell in the rotation.
- Wolverine Bite doesn't seem to use its prerequisite of being active only after a dodge, and the ability itself has its damage affected by dodge in the spreadsheet but that cannot happen according to the tooltip.
- Owl's Focus doesn't seem to do anything that I can see. I had my pet focus starved (so it could only Bite every 4.17s) and gave it 2/2 Owl's Focus and nothing changed. Quick maths: Every 3.33 shots the next is free so the focus is 1/4.33 or ~23% focus reduction with 2/2.
Last edited by Chul : 09/11/08 at 8:35 AM.
Originally Posted by Skillstep
Why is it that other classes feel whole and simple and fluid yet hunter feels like directing a symphony as a paraplegic midget with tourettes?
- Furious Howl now grants +2AP*LevelOfPet for 10 seconds
- Spiked Collar calculations now refer to the correct cell in the tenacity tree
- Aimed Shot and Steady Shot now have correct ranks in the spell selection again
- Kill shot now deals 200% autoshot damage + [30% RAP + 400]
- Aspect of the Viper now returns WeaponSpeed % of total mana per shot and reduces damage done by the hunter by 50%
- The shot Rotation tab now has a 'time to full Mana' indicator to show how long it takes to fill up from 0
- Cobra Strikes only affects 2 pet specials now
- Invigoration only restores 1% total mana now and has a 50/100% chance to proc depending on talent points
- Aspect Mastery only gives 30% of the AP of AotH (instead of 50%), Aspect Mastery now affects the damage penalty
- Lock and Load gives only 2 free shots now (down from 3), i.e. it'll replace only _1_ shot (since the other starts the cooldown)
- JoW now restores 2% BASE mana instead of TOTAL mana
- Added 25-man Tier7 and more loot from various instances
- Wolverine Bite now triggers only on a dodge and can not be dodged itself
- Implemented Owl's Focus
- T.N.T increases Explosive Shot critical strike chance by 3/6/9% instead of 5/10/15%
I hadn't implemented Owls' Focus yet, so that's why it did nothing.
Anyway, I need some help here. I need data on the new armor penetration rating. A lot of the new gear I've added it uses it and I need conversion rates between the new and old. And how it works. The rating converts to a %, no? This is a direct reduction of the target's armour mitigation %, no?
Edit:
Small addendum, uploaded wrong version:
67a 11-9-2008 - Added predicted crit/non-crit values for shots on the Shot Rotation tab. For best accuracy, turn on "Disable Averages" and remove all buffs (for solo testing)
- Redid HitDPS calculations on the gear planner. Removed the option on how to treat +hit. It should now properly determine how much of the hit on an item will be actually used and how much it is worth. This is on a per-item basis and compared to the item currently in a slot.. IMPORTANT NOTE: Rings and Trinkets and Weapons are compared against the TOP trinket/MH Weapon.
- Added Season 5 PvP gear and some more Naxx/Obsidian Sanctum loot
- Armor Penetration currently works AFTER debuffs (no info yet whether this is actually so, so don't PM me about it unless you have tested it in beta and found out how it really is)
- Converted all items with 'Ignore XX armor' to Armor Penetration Rating
I need more information on Armor Penetration Rating, most specifically about how it works. Is it applied before or after buffs?
Hopefully the changes to the gear planner should prevent the 'stuttering items' syndrome where you replace an item and re-sort the gear only to find another item has taken top place (because your +hit changed).
- Squashed some bugs in the gear planner logic to do with haste (it should more accurate now)
- Aspect of the Hawk bonus AP now properly turns off when you switch aspects
- Steady Shot rank 2 now has 120 bonus damage (instead of 150)
- New option 'Turn off Target AP Buffs', disables Hunter's Mark/Expose Weakness on the target
- Some pet specials now scale with 7% of pet AP (all physical implemented ones: Bite, Monstrous Bite, Savage Rend, Gore)
- Disable Averages now turns off Bestial Wrath, Rabid, Call of the Wild, FI, Kill Command and Monstrous Bite for pets
- Reverted JoW change
- Blood Frenzy target debuff is now also a 2% increase for the hunter (was still at 4%)
- Automatic spell rank selection now works on Hunter's Mark and AotH as well
If someone could test pet 'magical' attacks like Lightning Breath and see if they can figure out the scaling that would be much appreciated.
What kind of DPS numbers are people getting out of the spread sheet for their current gear, next patch, at lvl 70? I'm almost certain I'm missing something somewhere, but I'm showing me (4t6ish essentially done with BT gear, 51-10-0) at around 3700 dps fully raid buffed with the level 70 buff profile, level 70 hunter, level 73 target, with 6600 armor. Either I'm doing something wrong and need to keep digging, or there's a bug somewhere, or I'm a very happy man, leaning towards the first. So, what kind of numbers are other people getting for level 70. Oh, just noticed the glyphs, took those out and I'm down to 3550 which still seems, way too high.
What kind of DPS numbers are people getting out of the spread sheet for their current gear, next patch, at lvl 70? I'm almost certain I'm missing something somewhere, but I'm showing me (4t6ish essentially done with BT gear, 51-10-0) at around 3700 dps fully raid buffed with the level 70 buff profile, level 70 hunter, level 73 target, with 6600 armor. Either I'm doing something wrong and need to keep digging, or there's a bug somewhere, or I'm a very happy man, leaning towards the first. So, what kind of numbers are other people getting for level 70. Oh, just noticed the glyphs, took those out and I'm down to 3550 which still seems, way too high.
Well, first of all, pet's get a fairly hefty boost in their DPS from the new talents, but most of all your own dps is a bit higher than it is in TBC thanks to the linking of auto-shot.
Secondly, the level 70 buff profile may not be representative of a real-world DPS situation (i.e. it requires you to be tightly bunched up with all the raid-wide buffs available) and a tank-n-spank fight.
Lastly, while the shot rotation logic is _close_ to what is possible in real-world, it is still just an approximation and is by default set to 0 latency. Noone plays with 0 latency and it has a big impact on how tight the rotation is.
Still, if anyone could do some damage tests with the spreadsheet on a test-mob (like the training dummies) we could see how close we approximate reality.
EDIT: also, check your pet's level to see if it's 70 as well (I often forget that). As an aside, with my gear I should clock in at 3243 DPS versus a 6600 armor level 73 target.
One thing I noticed when testing with TSA is that the pet doesn't get the bonus from the extra +10% RAP the hunter gains from TSA i.e. If your pet is > 45yards away and you turn on TSA, the pet AP doesn't change. It only changes when you get into range and it directly benefits from the aura.
My RAP (no TSA): 2566, Pet AP (no TSA): 856
My RAP (with TSA): 2823 (or 2566*1.1), Pet AP (with TSA): 941 (or 856*1.1)
I'd be interested in hearing if other hunters notice this as well as the spreadsheet passes the extra RAP the hunter gains over to the pet and then also adds +10% (so in the above the spreadsheet would calculate pet AP as 1005.
Note 2:
Feeding Frenzy is +6% damage per point, not +20% damage.
Note 3:
The simplistic result of me testing Lightning Breath is a +4.5% pet AP scaling, although it seems like a more complex 0.125% Hunter AP + 4% Pet AP.
I was playing around with Bite again and I am wondering whether there is different scaling across the different pet types. Would be good if someone else can also test scaling so we can get the best answer.
Originally Posted by Skillstep
Why is it that other classes feel whole and simple and fluid yet hunter feels like directing a symphony as a paraplegic midget with tourettes?
A very close match. I'm not sure what the 15,89% signifies though.
Chimera Shot and Chimera-S Serpent:
Chimera Shot Serpent is dead on at the expected damage on the PTR. It still deals twice the damage the tooltip suggests though:
40% * SerpentStingDamage * 2
Chimera Shot deals slightly more damage than I calculate for some reason.
I spec'ed into this build, forgoing all talents that aren't passive stat boosts (no Mortal Shots, no Marked for Death, etc..).
With 2259 AP and the Fine Light Crossbow, Auto-shot Damage was exactly where I calculated it. No HM on target.
First of all:
1,25 * 1,05 = 1,3125
Why do you divide through 1,375 to calculate the damage without modifiers?
Ok, assuming a 1,3125 modifier, here's the 'actual Spellpower':
Case 1 (756 Pet Ap)
Actual Spellpower = (96 + 111) / 1.3125 / 2 - (40 + 52) / 2 = 32,857
Case 2 (401 Pet Ap)
Actual Spellpower = (74 + 89) / 1.3125 / 2 - (40 + 52) / 2 = 16,1
Assuming the formula is
Actual Spellpower = Pet Ap * x
x = Actual Spellpower / Pet ap
Case 1: x = 0,043462
Case 2: x = 0,040138
These results look quite precise. Of course you didn't have exactly 74 - 89 damage, rather something like 74,8 - 88,9.
Assuming this little difference, it looks like 4% is possible. But there's another thing we have to remind: LB itself has a spelldamage coefficient, too. And it's most likely 0.42857% (casttime / 3.5, instant cast are assumed to have a 1.5 second casttime).
Using the result from above and dividing them through the spelldmg coeffecient, we get:
case 1: 0,043462 / 0,42857 = 0,10141...
case 2: 0,040138 / 0,42857 = 0,09365...
I'm confident we have a 10% Pet Ap -> Spelldmg coefficient, and the typical 42,857% Spelldamage Coefficient for LB.
The displayed Spelldamage is very strange... Assuming y = ax - b:
Spellpower = a * Pet Ap - Base Spelldamage
Spellpower & Pet Ap are known, here's a table for different Base Spelldamages & the two Pet Ap / Spellpower cases:
Looks like the Spellpower shown by WoW is PetAp * 0.588 - 180.... Strange.
Well, I'm confident with the 10% Pet Ap -> Spelldamage multiplier, that's enough for now.
edit:
Argh, stop editing your post again and again!
About the 0.1589: It looks like your Ap modifiers (Master Marksman, Trueshot Aura & Survival Instincts) don't apply to Wild Quiver. 0.1589 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.04 = 0.19995976
edit 2:
Chimera Shot Damage isn't simply Auto Shot Damage * 1.25, it's based on the normalized Auto Shot Dmg.
Thus, it should be (assuming a 32 dps ammu, Blackflight Arrow):
(2259 * 0.2 + 10.7 * 2.8 + 32 * 2.8) * 1.25 = 714,2
Well, still not correct, but closer to numbers you saw.
09/08/08, 1:37 PM
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