This question is about Focus use and focus regen for a raiding BM hunter, and ultimately, talent point conservation.

If this is dealt with elsewhere, please direct me there.

We have base pet focus regen of 24.5 per 4 sec (wowwiki), and then 1 or 2 talent points to be put into Bestial Discipline, which increases the regen rate by 50% or 100%, and 1 or 2 talent points to be put into Go for the Throat, which gives the pet 25 or 50 focus upon a ranged crit.

The spreadsheet has a great section on how much focus regen exists based on talent spec and crit rate (Pet Calculations E29:F38), but I'm having trouble figuring out how much focus regen I NEED - in other words, how much focus my pet uses. It has been suggested that I watch my pet and see if he's not doing anything, but keeping everything working smoothly in a raid is hard enough - I can't pay attention to my pet to really see if he's focus starved.

Say you have a Cat in a Raid/instance setting (no Prowl - or Growl *shudder*). Say the focus-using talents the pet would autocast would be just Rake and Claw. Rabid and Call of the Wild would also be autocast, but they use no focus. (Let's ignore Charge since it can only really happen once per mod at most, and more likely once per group if the mobs are kept less than 8 yards apart, which they usually are.)

According to the spreadsheet, haste seems to increase only base attack speed, not special, focus-using attack speed (much like we Hunters ourselves, I guess), so focus-using attack speed is fixed at 1.25 regardless of buffs.

How can I figure out how much focus my pet uses? I'd think it shouldn't be too difficult a calculation, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around modeling it.

Once I know that, then I can mix and match talent points in BD and/or GftT, at a crit rate, say, of 35%, and with the spreadsheet's focus regen calculation, come up with the best use of these talent points.

I have also had it suggested that I play around with the talent points and see if the DPS changes. That might work but it would still be pretty opaque - just a thumbs up or thumbs down on whether I have enough focus or not - not a way to see if I have too much focus, or a way to plan ahead for when I have x more Crit, for example.

Also - Shandara - if the spreadsheet does the calculations behind the scenes anyway to determine focus use, why not have a handy section on the Pet Calculations tab that shows focus use?

Assuming you want enough focus for your cat to do something every pet GCD (1.25 seconds):

Cooldown of Rake is 10 seconds, which lines up with the GCD with no points in longevity. Every 10 seconds, your pet will cast 7 Claw and 1 Rake. That's 7*25 + 1*20 focus per 10 seconds, or 19.5 focus per second.

If you have points in longevity, your pet will use slightly less focus (since Rake will be more frequent and it's cheaper than Claw). 3/3 Longevity brings Rake cooldown down to 7 seconds. That doesn't divide evenly by 1.25, so part of longevity is wasted here in a situation where your pet always has enough focus for Claw. You'll get 6 Claws followed by a Rake with this rotation, which takes 8.75 seconds of GCD. During those 8.75 seconds you use 6*25 + 1*20 focus, or 19.43 focus per second.

First, I've just started playing around with this sheet to get a little used to it while I level my hunter to 80, where I may use it more often for making gear and talent selections, and I'd like to thank you for the obviously high amount of work you've done in making and maintaining it.

Second while playing with it I noticed a pair of relatively unimportant errors. There are two errors in the dodge calculations (hence why they aren't very important): Aspect of the Monkey is only giving 8% instead of the new 18%, and Aspect of the Dragonhawk is giving nothing.

While these things aren't very important in a DPS spreadsheet, since the value is calculated and displayed I figured it is worth correcting.

Could Improved Icy Talons be included on the Pet Buffs?

@Tsook Thank you for mentioning Longevity - I overlooked it.

Do the pet's regular attacks get in the way of the Special Ability pet GCD? You assumed not, so I will too unless someone says otherwise.

According to what you are saying, in a raid setting (regardless of Longevity, though I think most people see it as a must have at that point in the talent tree) as long as a hunter has 19.5 focus/sec regen, their cat will never run out of focus?

Base focus regen is 24.5/4 sec or 6.125/sec. 1/2 BD would be 36.75/4 sec or 9.1875/sec. 2/2 BD would be 49/4 sec or 12.25/sec - still not enough.

So 2/2 BD by itself is probably not going to be sufficient focus regen for a pet, which is interesting.

Now, GftT awards either 25 or 50 focus on a hunter ranged crit. Haste is in play as well, since faster shooting means more crits/second (and therefore more focus regen/sec) than slower shooting with the same crit rate.

Using the spreadsheet’s Pet Calculations Focus Regen section, I think if a hunter can only get off 1 shot per second and has a 30% crit chance, 0/2 BD and 2/2 GftT will give the cat 21 focus/sec regen – plenty!

I didn’t change my talents around, but even subtracting out the 369 Haste Rating I have from gear, and taking Rapid Fire out of my shot rotation, according to the spreadsheet I still seem to have 1.11 Hunter Shots per Sec (remember – auto *and* special), which gets me to 22.65 focus/sec with a 30% crit rate with 2/2 GftT and 0/2 BD.

With my full gear and rotation, I have just over 1.20 Hunter Shots per Sec and 36.67% Crit (raid buffed, mind). I’d get 28.04 focus/sec with 2/2 GftT and 0/2 BD. 28.04 seems like a terrible waste to me, with a cat. Other more focus-needy pets may be different, of course. I can’t just go 1/2 GftT and 0/2 BD, though, since that would give me just 17.02 focus/sec regen. (This is more than 2/2 BD alone, though.)

But, maybe a point is better spent in BD than in GftT, since it helps me get to the rest of the BM tree, whereas I may not be going much deeper than GftT into MM. How about 1 point in BD and 1 point in GftT? If a hunter has 1.2 Hunter Shots per Sec and 35% Critical Hit chance, 1/2 BD and 1/2 GftT yields 19.5 focus/sec regen.

(By the way, 1.2 Hunter Shots per Sec and 45% Critical Hit Chance would get 19.5 focus/sec regen with 0/2 BD and 1/2 GftT. That 45% is 385 Crit Rating more than I have now though, so it’s way out of reach.)

I had 2/2 GftT and 0/2 BD until now. To me, this means that I can take the point I had in Animal Handler and put it in BD, and take a point out of GftT and do anything with it. Sure, taking a point out of AH does nerf my pet’s damage slightly, but it looks like there are other places I can put it that will not only give me better DPS now, but scale better for the future.


Postscript: On the Pet Calculations tab, I'm not sure I completely understand how the spreadsheet derives the "CrittingShotsPerSecond" number in F32, labeled "Hunter Shots per Sec" or the "CompositShotCritRate" in F33 labeled "Critical Hit chance". Maybe someone can explain? Also, the second number differs from what shows up on the Gear tab, since it seems to include Survival Instincts. I'm not sure why the number on the Gear tab doesn’t include Survival Instincts. Anyone know?

Why would they? Just like for players, autoattacks do not incur any kind of GCD.

As for the rest of your conclusions, they look about right to me in theory. Remember that relying completely on GftT for focus regen is subject to two problems:
1) crit strings/droughts: 30% crit rate does not mean every third attack will crit. You will get strings of no crits at all, starving your pet, and you will get strings of crits right next to eachother, over-capping your pet and wasting focus.
2) movement/other responsibilities: Focus regen from BD functions perfectly regardless of what you are doing. If you rely on GftT, your pet may well be starved when you have to move or trap or any of the other various things you might do during a boss.

Wouldn't the 3/3 Longevity rotation work out to 5 Claws + 1 Rake per 7.50 seconds of GCDs?

Elapsed	Ability	Cost	Next Rake CD
0.00	Rake	20	7.0
1.25	Claw	25
2.50	Claw	25
3.75	Claw	25
5.00	Claw	25
6.25	Claw	25
7.50	Rake	20	14.5
8.75	Claw	25
10.00	Claw	25
11.25	Claw	25
12.50	Claw	25
13.75	Claw	25
15.00	Rake	20	22.0
16.25	Claw	25
…	…	…

(5 x 25 Focus) + (1 x 20 Focus) = 145 Focus / 7.5 Seconds = 19.3333333 focus/sec

Yep, you're right.

I get this to work finally and apparently i have the trial version of Office on this laptop and i can't "unprotect" the sheet so i can actually modify the values, keeps asking for a pswd i don't have LOL. Oh well it looks nice..

The password is built into the sheet on purpose. You will not get it unless you are co-developing it.

There are a great number of fields that are editable by you though: usually indicated in light-yellow.

To be honest, it's not like you have much to choose besides 2/2 BD to go further on to the upper Tiers of the BM tree.
You have 2/2 Imp Mend Pet which is not really a good talent: the reduced mana cost is not a big problem with the mana regeneration you have available on raids nowadays and the dispel mechanic is awful ( having to wait 3 secs before it does the 1st check and even then you have a 50% chance to not dispel and have to wait another 3 seconds).

With 2/2 BD and 1/2 GftT you should be fine according to your calculations, and BD has the advantage pointed above that it's a reliable focus source.

You may also check somewhere on this forum the calculations about how may points are needed on Frenzy to have high uptime with 3/3 Cobra Strikes, probably 3/5 is enough, freeing 1 point to cap Animal Handler.

I was initially confused about it as well, which led to an erroneous assumption in one of my previous posts.

"CrittingShotsPerSecond" actually means the number shots per second that are able to crit. The "TotalShotsPerSecond" value on the Shot Rotation sheet includes stings in it's calculation. If you remove Serpent Sting from the rotation, you will see that the "CrittingShotsPerSecond" is now exactly the same as "TotalShotsPerSecond"

As for "CompositeShotCritRate", yes it includes "Survival Instincts", "Imp Barrage", "T.N.T", "Sniper Training"(Pre-3.1), "Glyph of Trueshot Aura", and Rift Stalkers 4-piece set bonus. The Gear tab only shows the base Crit Chance. I do agree that the Composite Crit Chance as well as the individual crit rates of each shot should be more visible in the sheet.

@ Nagisamuro - thanks for keeping us honest

@ sevla

I do currently have 2/2 IMP, and you make a good point about the flimsy IMP mana benefit.

To put numbers to it, 2/2 IMP saves 20% of 9% base mana each time MP is cast, which is 1.8% of base mana. I have 14355 mana right now, so without IMP, MP costs me 1292, with it it costs me 1034. It saves me 258 mana - basically, one Steady or Arcane - each time I cast MP, which is how often - on average once or twice per boss fight max? Still, the dispel is probably good for a few saves (or Heart of the Phoenix cooldowns, however you look at it), since healers (rightfully) cleanse pets last, if at all.

Anyone else have an opinion on IMP?

In terms of what the options for the points are, in order to get to 35 points and advance further down the tree, you essentially have to spend 4 talent points between 0/2 Animal Handler, 0/2 Improved Mend Pet, 0/2 Bestial Discipline, upgrading Frenzy from 3/5 to 4/5, and I guess upgrading Endurance Training up from 1/5. (The other options - Pathfinding, Catlike Reflexes, ImpAoM and Thick Hide (white damage only) are all non-starters for me. Anyone find PvE value in any of them?)

From the whole analysis above, I'm certainly seeing the DPS value to putting at least 1 point in BD. Using the spreadsheet, nothing that is left has any direct impact on DPS other than 2/2 Animal Handler. (The spreadsheet has the 4th point in Frenzy as a minor increase.) Then the last point. I guess it comes down to what's more valuable - the second point in BD, a point in IMP for the cleansing chance, another point in Endurance Training for general survivability, or the 4th point in Frenzy for a seemingly slight DPS boost. I think for me it would come down to BD or Frenzy. Endurance Training is a nice idea but the health boost is really tiny. I wish I didn't have to put the first point in there.

I will check out 3/5 Frenzy vs. 4/5 Frenzy on the forum and report back, but I think I'd go with the Frenzy. I can't think of too many fights where I'm occupied for solid chunks of time doing things other than shooting, such that the extra point in BD would be important to keep my cat from becoming focus starved.

@ Innersakura

Good info - thanks. Makes a lot of sense.

So, even though stings can crit, and are ranged attacks, they can't cause GftT to give the pet focus? I'd be happy if they did it just on the initial crit, not each tick.

No, they can't crit, which is why he was saying that the "crittingshotspersecond" will equal "totalshotspersecond" if you remove stings from the rotation. If you leave them in, then total shots increases while critting shots stays the same, because you are adding more shots that can't crit.

Serpent sting cannot crit.

Edit - too slow to beat Trevy, sigh.

While on the spreadsheet it may not indicate any value, don't be so quick to judge focus regen issues based completly on that. It is, after all, averaging out Go for the Throat focus regen. As pretty much anyone who raided with a windserpent in TBC can attest to, focus regen doesn't really work in practice how the spreadsheet averages it out. You will end up with more focus regen than you can hold at some points, and dry spells at others, so be careful there.

Base mana is the mana you would have before any gear or buffs. There is no way you have 14K base mana.

As a level 80 Dwarf I have 6101 base mana and yet Rank 10 Mend Pet only costs 454 mana (9% of 6101 is 549, so no idea where the extra mana went to, as I have 0/2 IMP).

That means that each point in IMP will save me 45.4 mana. 2 points for 90mana/cast which is a ridiculous waste of 2 points.

So basically your point is right (not really that useful) but your math was wrong, making it even LESS useful than you stated.

Just keeping you honest

Yeah, thank you. I wasn't properly distinguishing between base mana and buffed to the hilt mana. Still comes out the IMP is wasteful.

The BM tree comes up looking a little soft in the proverbial midsection.

I wanted to check how would a Wolf fare in a raid without BoM and BShout... but it hasn't been implemented apparently.

I tried leaving wolf with just Furious Howl to see how much my and his dps would increase.

His DPS lowered (since less bite were used) and mine was unchanged. Shouldn't mine increase a bit at least?

I have been able to reproduce this, but using a Wolf and clearing all buffs properly makes dps increase when I use Furious Howl. One bug I did find though was that it doesn't purely check whether BoM or BShout are present. The toggle is any +AP buff (which includes food).

This is obviously not how it works in-game (it should stack with food and such). Will be fixed next release.

Would it be possible to sort the gems list by rank, like the gear lists are sorted in the drop downs? It doesn't sound like this would be too hard since they're just items with stats like the gear.

Socket color of course wouldn't need to be taken into account by the sorting, just the highest standalone gems would be on top, and we could try the various ones in each socket manually to see what works out best.

Would make finding the gem you're looking for a lot easier too, since you'd generally be looking at only the top 5-6 choices on the list, instead scrolling through an alphabetical list of dozens of gems you don't care about just to look at the highest available rank of delicate, shifting, glinting, rigid, smooth, vivid or jagged.

Apologies if this is already possible and I've just been missing it.