WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 7

Shandara · 09/15/08, 11:10 AM

I can only say a 7 looks a lot like a 1! I have no idea why I divided by 1.375 when it should be 1.3125.

Pet spell power appears to be solely based on Hunter AP, if we believe what the tooltip for Hunter AP says. The amount of spellpower the pet displays is exactly what it gains from the tooltip of Hunter AP, visibly at least.

Hunter AP  -  Pet Spellpower
414           -  53
575           -  74
735           -  94
897           - 115
999           - 128
1255         - 161

Indora · 09/15/08, 11:23 AM

Pet Spelldamage based on Hunter AP? o0
Well, it looks like that's only another display error and has nothing to do with the damage your windserpent actually does.

I hope you noticed the edits I made with my other post. ^^

Shandara · 09/15/08, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Indora

Pet Spelldamage based on Hunter AP? o0
Well, it looks like that's only another display error and has nothing to do with the damage your windserpent actually does.

I hope you noticed the edits I made with my other post. ^^

I saw them yes.

I did another test on Wild Quiver with the same build I used for Chimera Shot.

2259 AP, No Mortal Shots, No RWS, spec'ed into TSA (but not actually using it), Combat Experience, Careful Aim, Master Marksman (no points in other trees)

WQ: 270 hit, 540 crit

If we take off all the AP gained from Master Marksman, we're left with 2053.

2053 * 0,2 + 10,7*2,8 = 440 * 0,6 = 264

Close, but no cigar yet.

EDIT:
Enabled TSA:
2485 AP, same as above.

WQ: 291 hit, 583 crit

If we take of all the AP gained from Master Marksman we're left with 2259 AP.
2259 * 0,2 + 10,7*2,8 = 289

EDIT #2:
Also re-did some Chimera Shot tests.

Same setup as WQ, TSA + Master Marksman: 2485 AP. Add Hunter's Mark (and imp HM) for 390 AP = 2875 AP.

Observed Damage: 863/1726

Predicted value: ( 2875*0,2 + 10,7*2,8 + 32 * 2,8 ) * 1,25 = (575 + 30,07 + 89,6) * 1,25 = 868

Again close. Makes me wonder if there's some rounding going on somewhere.

EDIT #3:
Did another run on Lightning Breath
2485 Hunter AP
881 Pet AP
319 Pet Spellpower

Observed range: 104-119

Indora · 09/15/08, 6:36 PM

A few suggestions how to improve imp. SS calculations:
First of all, you should differ between % Dmg Bonus for Arcane- and/or Chimera Shot, as they haven't the same frequencies (it's more likely imp SS will improve an Arcane instead of an Chimera Shot).

In Addition, you should add a calculation for imp. SS double proccs:
Every time you shoot 2 or more Steady back to back, there's a chance they both procc and one procc is wasted. Because of this, a Chimera + Arcane + Steady rotation will result in a better utilization of the procc than a Chimera + Steady rotation (it doesn't bring higher Dps though, as you won't shoot as many Steadys).

An 'Actual Procc Chance' could be:
1 - 0.85 ^ (Arcane + Chimera Shot frequency / Steady Shot frequency)

IE with a plain Chimera + Steady rotation, you'll shoot a Chimera every 10.5 and a Steady every 1,75 seconds.
That's 10.5 / 1.75 = 6 Steadys per Chimera. The chance that you won't have a procc in any of the steadys is 0.85 ^ 6.
The chance that you'll have a procc is 1 - 0.85 ^ 6 or 62%.
As result, your 'Actual Procc frequency' will be 10.5 / 0.62 = 16,9 seconds instead of the 1.75 / 0.15 = 11,67 frequency the spreadsheet calculates at the moment. That's a huge difference!

EDIT #3:
Did another run on Lightning Breath
2485 Hunter AP
881 Pet AP
319 Pet Spellpower

Observed range: 104-119

Hmpf. It should have been (881 * 0.1 * 1.5 / 3.5 + 46) * 1,3125 * 1.05 (Cunning pet!) = 115,4278125 damage on average, instead of 111,5...

Chul · 09/15/08, 7:52 PM

Originally Posted by Indora

Assuming the formula is
Actual Spellpower = Pet Ap * x
x = Actual Spellpower / Pet ap

Case 1: x = 0,043462
Case 2: x = 0,040138

These results look quite precise...

You can see the pet uses 4% of its AP when it has low AP, and 4.3% of its AP when it has a higher AP. On my tests, with around 1000 pet AP, it uses 4.5%. So as I alluded to in my post, there is something else we're missing. It don't believe it is just the 1.5/3.5 kinda of scaling.

EDIT:
I'll post some data from a lvl 65 Core Hound in case someone wants to work it out:

Hunter AP	Pet AP (+Spell Damage)	Damage Range
185	318 (23)	77-97
2070	733 (266)	114-133
2438	814 (313)	119-139

Damage multipliers: Happy (1.25), Orc (1.05), Ferocity (1.1), Spiked Collar (1.09), Unleashed Rage (1.2)=1.888425

Indora · 09/16/08, 9:50 AM

You can see the pet uses 4% of its AP when it has low AP, and 4.3% of its AP when it has a higher AP. On my tests, with around 1000 pet AP, it uses 4.5%. So as I alluded to in my post, there is something else we're missing.

This doesn't have to be the case.
As the Damage range values we get are rounded, it's possible the pet had for example 119.9-139 instead of 119-139 damage. That's a difference of ~0.47 damage after calculating the damage multipliers in.

Pet AP	Damage	avg Damage	\multipliers	\basedmg	Dmg per Pet Ap
318	77-97	87		46,07013781	11,07013781	0,034811754
733	114-133	123,5		65,39841402	30,39841402	0,041471233
814	119-139	129		68,310894	33,310894	0,040922474

Increasing the average Damage (before multipliers) in case 2 by 0,5 and decreasing it by 0,5 in case 3:

avg Damage	\multipliers	\basedmg	Dmg per Pet Ap
887		46,07013781	11,07013781	0,034811754
123		65,13364312	30,13364312	0,041110018
129,5		68,57566491	33,57566491	0,041247746

This time, you get a higher multiplier with more Pet Attack Power.

Shandara · 09/16/08, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Indora

Hmpf. It should have been (881 * 0.1 * 1.5 / 3.5 + 46) * 1,3125 * 1.05 (Cunning pet!) = 115,4278125 damage on average, instead of 111,5...

The 1.3125 modifier already includes the cunning one, no?

Mood (125%) * Cunning (105%) = 131,25%

So it should've been (881*0,1*1.5/35+46) * 1,3125 = 109,9 average

Which is very close (and probably the result of rounding).

I've taken your suggestions on Imp. Steady Shot for the next version.

justbekuz · 09/16/08, 2:50 PM

I am getting an error when I try to load up a character from the armory in the latest version of the spreadsheet.

"Run Time Error 91"
"Object variable or with block variable not set"

Edit: Nothing will change manually either in the gear section. You can change the item, but the stats stay the same no matter what item you choose.

Shandara · 09/16/08, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by justbekuz

I am getting an error when I try to load up a character from the armory in the latest version of the spreadsheet.

"Run Time Error 91"
"Object variable or with block variable not set"

Edit: Nothing will change manually either in the gear section. You can change the item, but the stats stay the same no matter what item you choose.

I just downloaded the last uploaded version and checked it. It works for me, although the server was really slow and messed up the first attempt.

Hmm, bugs/bad responses from the server will often break the automatic calculations (it will disable them to prevent bad things)

Check your options Tools->Options->Calculations, make sure it's set to automatic.

Alternatively, it might have left the sheet in an 'off' status. Hit Alt+F11, select the 'Control Data' tab in the VBAproject list. Make it visible in the properties.

Then check on the sheet if the value 'Throttle Changes' is No (if it is Yes then change it to No). Save the sheet then.

Usually errors pop up the VBscript screen anyway, make sure you reset it (Run->Reset) if you don't close/re-open the sheet.

I could (probably) make it more robust, but in this beta phase things break a lot anyway so I usually just reset it after fixing things.

huntcaudata · 09/16/08, 3:03 PM

Shucks, I meant to mention that right away. You get that error when the character doesn't exist on armory (and possibly other situations). I learned this by failing at spelling my own name.

Shandara · 09/16/08, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by huntcaudata

Shucks, I meant to mention that right away. You get that error when the character doesn't exist on armory (and possibly other situations). I learned this by failing at spelling my own name.

Ah, I've checked and there's indeed a check for the existence of your character, but it's failing. I've modified it to actually work. Should be in the next release.

justbekuz · 09/16/08, 3:35 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

I just downloaded the last uploaded version and checked it. It works for me, although the server was really slow and messed up the first attempt.

Hmm, bugs/bad responses from the server will often break the automatic calculations (it will disable them to prevent bad things)

Check your options Tools->Options->Calculations, make sure it's set to automatic.

Alternatively, it might have left the sheet in an 'off' status. Hit Alt+F11, select the 'Control Data' tab in the VBAproject list. Make it visible in the properties.

Then check on the sheet if the value 'Throttle Changes' is No (if it is Yes then change it to No). Save the sheet then.

Usually errors pop up the VBscript screen anyway, make sure you reset it (Run->Reset) if you don't close/re-open the sheet.

I could (probably) make it more robust, but in this beta phase things break a lot anyway so I usually just reset it after fixing things.

I'm still having problems. Possibly because I'm using excel 2003?

Shandara · 09/16/08, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by justbekuz

I'm still having problems. Possibly because I'm using excel 2003?

Unlikely, since that is what I use to develop the sheet.

Can you try re-downloading and re-trying to get the armory data?

justbekuz · 09/16/08, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Unlikely, since that is what I use to develop the sheet.

Can you try re-downloading and re-trying to get the armory data?

Just did that as I thought I maybe got a bad download for whatever reason...but still getting the same results.
All of the other versions worked just fine for me. I'm not sure why this one won't.

Shandara · 09/16/08, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by justbekuz

Just did that as I thought I maybe got a bad download for whatever reason...but still getting the same results.
All of the other versions worked just fine for me. I'm not sure why this one won't.

If you could upload it somewhere after it bugs for you, so I can take a look it, that would help. If you want to mail it, PM me for an e-mail address.

Indora · 09/16/08, 5:38 PM

The 1.3125 modifier already includes the cunning one, no?

I feel kind of dumb.

Edit: Nothing will change manually either in the gear section. You can change the item, but the stats stay the same no matter what item you choose.

The reason for this is the 'Application.Calculation = xlCalculationManual' command in the visual basics code.
When it's used, the spreadsheet stops calculating everything again and again for every single gem/item/talent... you import from the armory. (That's saving a lot of time and is the reason most of the rotation-buttons became fast again.)
After everything is loaded, it's set to calculate everything automatically (-> every time you change a cell) again.
However, if the import didn't worked and got interrupted, the calculation isn't set back to automatically. You can fix this problem by setting it automatic by hand (tools -> options -> calculations).

edit: Just noticed Shandara explained it already.

Hmm, bugs/bad responses from the server will often break the automatic calculations (it will disable them to prevent bad things)

It's not to prevent bugs, but a bug itself. ^^ As the ScrapeItems function is interrupted, the 'Private Sub CommandButton1_Click()' of the Gear tab simply doesn't get to it's last command, setting the calculations back to automatic.
They are set to manual (or in other words: not calculating) in the beginning of the Sub to prevent the sheet from calculating everything again and again just because of importing another gem. This saves a lot of time.

Shandara · 09/16/08, 5:56 PM

I should have it fixed so it exits gracefully on errors next version.

In other news, I got into beta, but subsequently it broke my access into PTR (and I can't copy any characters into beta because the queue is full), so can't test pet abilities at the moment.

Despite that, it seems that Indorra's assumptions about the scaling are probably correct.

It makes you wonder what the spellpower value on the pet tab is supposed to do though. We also need to examine other magical abilities (Lava Breath, Fire Breath, etc..) to see if they have the same scaling.

Indora · 09/16/08, 6:24 PM

It makes you wonder what the spellpower value on the pet tab is supposed to do though.

It doesn't represent the spellpower your pet have, but the spellpower it get's through your attack power. The value itself is totaly wrong, it's a relict from the pre-LB-scaling-nerf or something like that if I remember right. Quite typical for blizzard not correcting the displayed values.

We also need to examine other magical abilities (Lava Breath, Fire Breath, etc..) to see if they have the same scaling.

I think it's the same for all of them, as Chul's values for Lava Breath look the same like the ones for LB.

Chul · 09/16/08, 8:33 PM

Could you possibly sort the gear in the drop down lists? It'll make it much easier to find a piece of gear you need.

Shandara · 09/17/08, 4:26 AM

Originally Posted by Chul

Could you possibly sort the gear in the drop down lists? It'll make it much easier to find a piece of gear you need.

If you use the sort buttons on the gear planner, the drop down lists on the gear tab get sorted according to it (i.e. most powerful on top, least on bottom).

Except for melee weapons, since those consists of two separate lists for one-handers and two-handers. This is limitation on how the sheet has ordered weapons and I'd have to re-design that part to get it into one list.

Update:

- Madness of the Betrayer trinket +Ignore Armor now valued differently on the gear planner. Previously it was treated as ArP _rating_ which is why it was rated so high.
- Redid Imp. Steady Shot calculations, splitting benefits amongst the 3 possible shots
- Added Dalaran and SW/Org Target dummies to boss list
- Clearing an item slot on the gear tab now automatically clears the enchant as well
- Faerie Fire can now be set at either rank 5 or 6
- Magical pet abilities now scale with 10% of Pet Ap and have a 42.875% coefficient
- Kibler's Bits now is +30str/spi

EDIT:
I just wondered, since Fire Breath is a channeled ability, its coefficient is probably higher. Must remember to test it when I can get back on the PTR.

EDIT:

- Redid Chimera Shot calculations, hopefully bringing them closer to reality
- Master Marksman now increases critical chance by 1/2/3/4/5% and total ranged haste by 1/2/3/4/5% instead of AP by 2/4/6/8/10%
- Explosive Shot now 7% base mana instead of 10%
- Wild Quiver deals 50% damage instead of 60% damage now
- Aspect of the Viper now returns 2 times RangedWeaponSpeed% of your total mana on hit
- Glyph of Aspect of the Viper now increases mana returned by 10%
- Hunting Party and Replenishment buffs now restore 0.25% total mana per second
- Added new Ranks of Kill Shot and Explosive Shot (levels still guesstimates for Kill Shot)
- Sniper Training's Kill Shot crit chance bonus now always works
- Spider's Bite now increases pet critical chance by 3/6/9% instead of critical damage by 10/20/30%
- Fire Breath now has 2 components, an initial hit and a DoT, both scale with pet AP (need testing on this)
- Survival Instinct now increases critical chance of Arcane, Steady and Explosive by 2/4% (instead of 2/4% AP)
- Combat Experience 2/4% agility/intellect instead of 3/6%
- Added Cat 'Rake' Ability
- Added Spirit Beast Exotic Pet (Probably an exotic cat-like, since it has prowl and claw)
- Implemented Spirit Beast family skill 'Spirit Strike'
- Implemented Tier7 Set Bonuses
- Feeding Frenzy is now 6/12% instead of 20/40%

Niouk · 09/18/08, 7:59 AM

Two small fixes :

Wolf's Furious howl has an uptime of 95% in the spreadsheet, but in PTR/Beta it's consummed with your next attack.
I don't understand how Moth's Serenity dust can reduce pet dps (by 10 in spreadsheet), it has no focus cost and it gives 10% AP to the pet for 15sec.

Sorry for bad english : )

Shandara · 09/18/08, 8:01 AM

Originally Posted by Niouk

Two small fixes :

Wolf's Furious howl has an uptime of 95% in the spreadsheet, but in PTR/Beta it's consummed with your next attack.
I don't understand how Moth's Serenity dust can reduce pet dps (by 10 in spreadsheet), it has no focus cost and it gives 10% AP to the pet for 15sec.

Sorry for bad english : )

In the Hunter WotLK thread a poster reported Furious Howl lasts the full 10 seconds now (which is what we all assumed when the ability was changed).

Not all pet abilities are implemented, Moth's Serenity Dust is one of them so it doesn't do anything (and thus decreases DPS).

Chul · 09/19/08, 5:36 AM

A few things:

Rake isn't affected by armour based on my testing
Mortal Shots doesn't affect Auto Shot
Flame Breath's DoT component doesn't receive all of the spell power from the looks of things (unless this is a rounding error again):
- 788 AP = 100-110 plus 84-88 DoT ticks (x1.803 multiplier)
- 365 AP = 64-75 plus 49-53 DoT ticks

Kom · 09/19/08, 12:36 PM

On the PTR Mortal Shots doesn't affect Wild Quiver either.

Also is there any word on the Wild Quiver calculation? I spent a few hours with the level 1 dummies on PTR and got no where. About all I can say is that ammo doesn't affect it. With a low level vendor bow I was getting RAP*18.5% + WeaponDPS*(2.8 or speed) [numbers to small to know which]. However when I switched to a 70 bow I was getting more like RAP*21.5% + WeaponDPS*WeaponSpeed...

EDIT: WOW I am dumb... I used a 2.6 bow for the low level and a 3.0 for the high level.. those numbers looked a bit to symmetric to be coincidence. So for all the tests I've done using a 2.6 bow and a 3.0 using about 10 different AP values, the following formula gives my wild quiver damage:

(RAP*(WeaponSpeed/14) + WeaponDPS*WeaponSpeed)*0.5

Which is quite annoying really, because if I'd spent at least a minute or two to think about what the equation would likely be rather than trying to shove 0.2 and 2.8 in left right and center completely ignoring where it actually comes from I think could have saved myself a fair chunk of time.

Shandara · 09/19/08, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Kom

On the PTR Mortal Shots doesn't affect Wild Quiver either.

Also is there any word on the Wild Quiver calculation? I spent a few hours with the level 1 dummies on PTR and got no where. About all I can say is that ammo doesn't affect it. With a low level vendor bow I was getting RAP*18.5% + WeaponDPS*(2.8 or speed) [numbers to small to know which]. However when I switched to a 70 bow I was getting more like RAP*21.5% + WeaponDPS*WeaponSpeed...

EDIT: WOW I am dumb... I used a 2.6 bow for the low level and a 3.0 for the high level.. those numbers looked a bit to symmetric to be coincidence. So for all the tests I've done using a 2.6 bow and a 3.0 using about 10 different AP values, the following formula gives my wild quiver damage:

(RAP*(WeaponSpeed/14) + WeaponDPS*WeaponSpeed)*0.5

Which is quite annoying really, because if I'd spent at least a minute or two to think about what the equation would likely be rather than trying to shove 0.2 and 2.8 in left right and center completely ignoring where it actually comes from I think could have saved myself a fair chunk of time.

Reorganizing your equation I get:

(RAP/14 + BaseWeaponDPS) * WeaponSpeed * 0.5

Which makes sense really, given how the tooltip says it fires another 'auto-shot'. (And what doesn't make sense it that it deals Nature damage, but that's another story!)

Update:

- Mortal Shots no longer affects Auto Shot

- Furious Howl doesn't stack anymore
- Pet Family Armor modifiers are now all 100%, need testing on the new base armor values at 71-80
- Added some WotLK Trinkets.. Proc chances/internal cooldowns unknown for now (assumed 10% proc chance, 45 sec internal CD for now)
- Pets now gain 45% of the hunter's stamina
- Rake ignores armor
- Wild Quiver isn't affected by Mortal Shots now
- Wild Quiver now deals RAP * WeaponSpeed/14 + WeaponDPS*WeaponSpeed damage (courtesy of testing from Kom)
- Added new Enchants