WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 8

Kom · 09/20/08, 11:54 AM

Having an issue with your Chimera formula also.

With 552 Ap, 53 DPS ammo, 2.6 speed bow with 8.5 DPS.

My average Chimera Shot was 337.5. (max of 345 min of 330)

The formula currently on your spreadsheet gives me an estimated 353.25 damage. Which is a fair way off. Plus the standard blizzard convention for 'weapon damage' only normalizes the AP not the weapon and ammo.

So RAP*0.2 + WeaponDamage + AmmoDamage makes more sense.

Which gives 337.875 damage.

Shandara · 09/20/08, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Kom

Having an issue with your Chimera formula also.

With 552 Ap, 53 DPS ammo, 2.6 speed bow with 8.5 DPS.

My average Chimera Shot was 337.5. (max of 345 min of 330)

The formula currently on your spreadsheet gives me an estimated 353.25 damage. Which is a fair way off. Plus the standard blizzard convention for 'weapon damage' only normalizes the AP not the weapon and ammo.

So RAP*0.2 + WeaponDamage + AmmoDamage makes more sense.

Which gives 337.875 damage.

Thanks, I hadn't had a chance to try out the new chimera shot calculations I made this build. I'm sure the last time I tested it (a build or 3 ago) it was using normalized ammo/weapon damage though.

EDIT:
Also, just tested it on Beta. Chimera shot is all nature damage now (I'm sure it was physical base and nature for the CS-Serpent effect before)

EDIT:
Chimera Shot-Serpent effect now properly deals damage ONCE for serpent sting, instead of double. And it is exactly 40% of Serpent Sting damage.

I have been unable to test crits since I don't seem to crit much as a level 70 vs a level 83 target dummy. So if anyone who can actually log onto the PTR can test what modifiers still apply to Chimera Shot and CS-Serpent, that'd be helpful.

Kom · 09/20/08, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Thanks, I hadn't had a chance to try out the new chimera shot calculations I made this build. I'm sure the last time I tested it (a build or 3 ago) it was using normalized ammo/weapon damage though.

EDIT:
Also, just tested it on Beta. Chimera shot is all nature damage now (I'm sure it was physical base and nature for the CS-Serpent effect before)

EDIT:
Chimera Shot-Serpent effect now properly deals damage ONCE for serpent sting, instead of double. And it is exactly 40% of Serpent Sting damage.

Yep noticed the all nature damage thing also.

Another note also is that Chimera Shot - Serpent deals 40% of theoretical Serpent Sting damage, not what it is actually doing. So where you take the Serpent Sting damage into the Chimera calculations box, need to take it the value before CoE and other adjustments are applied.

EDIT:
Chimera Shot is affected by crit damage modifiers

EDIT:
Sorry poor information in the previous edit, however:
Mortal Shots is not affecting Chimera Shot - Serpent
Meta Gem (I'm assuming) is affecting Chimera Shot - Serpent (although the crits are doing more than they should, no where near mortal shots damage though so it definatly isn't that)

EDIT:
Well I'd say its safe to assume that it is just the Meta Gem affecting Chimera Shot - Serpent.

I've noticed will all my shots on PTR that the meta gem is doing around 6% crit damage rather than 3%. But yes in conclusion, MS does not affect it, but it can be affected by critical damage affecting things, like meta gems.

Shandara · 09/20/08, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kom

Yep noticed the all nature damage thing also.

Another note also is that Chimera Shot - Serpent deals 40% of theoretical Serpent Sting damage, not what it is actually doing. So where you take the Serpent Sting damage into the Chimera calculations box, need to take it the value before CoE and other adjustments are applied.

EDIT:
Chimera Shot is affected by crit damage modifiers

EDIT:
Sorry poor information in the previous edit, however:
Mortal Shots is not affecting Chimera Shot - Serpent
Meta Gem (I'm assuming) is affecting Chimera Shot - Serpent (although the crits are doing more than they should, no where near mortal shots damage though so it definatly isn't that)

EDIT:
Well I'd say its safe to assume that it is just the Meta Gem affecting Chimera Shot - Serpent.

I've noticed will all my shots on PTR that the meta gem is doing around 6% crit damage rather than 3%. But yes in conclusion, MS does not affect it, but it can be affected by critical damage affecting things, like meta gems.

It's probable that the Metagem is double-dipping again (something that was noticed in TBC as well).

My guess is that rather than taking Serpent Sting damage and applying that it just takes a new calculation for CS-Serpent, which is just the base 20% RAP scaling + base damage.

That way Blizzard avoids any double-dipping of modifiers to start with. I'm fairly confident that Chimera Shot and CS-Serpent calculations are correct now. Time to spec SV and test Explosive.

EDIT:
Wild Quiver isn't showing up in the combatlog on Beta.. and it's doing very little damage (Auto Shot hitting for 311-312.. Wild Quiver hitting for 51, but I guess I don't know what portion is being resisted)

EDIT#2:
Ok, I'm seeing weird things with Explosive Shot.
With rank 1 ES and 2112 AP I get non-crits of 518 avg (ES rank 1 is 88-104 + 20% AP, so avg 96 + 2112*0,2 = 518,4). Which is spot on.

But my crits are for 684 (+32% crit bonus) where I expect 777 (+50% crit bonus)

EDIT#3:
Ok, I went to the Blasted Lands mobs to test it (no resists) and I get a +100% critical strike bonus on Explosive Shot (rather than 50% as for spells). I can only assume there's a display bug in the combat log when it comes to criticals and resists (all the criticals on the level 83 target dummy were partially resisted).

Kom · 09/20/08, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

It's probable that the Metagem is double-dipping again (something that was noticed in TBC as well).

My guess is that rather than taking Serpent Sting damage and applying that it just takes a new calculation for CS-Serpent, which is just the base 20% RAP scaling + base damage.

That way Blizzard avoids any double-dipping of modifiers to start with. I'm fairly confident that Chimera Shot and CS-Serpent calculations are correct now. Time to spec SV and test Explosive.

EDIT:
Wild Quiver isn't showing up in the combatlog on Beta.. and it's doing very little damage (Auto Shot hitting for 311-312.. Wild Quiver hitting for 51, but I guess I don't know what portion is being resisted)

EDIT#2:
Ok, I'm seeing weird things with Explosive Shot.
With rank 1 ES and 2112 AP I get non-crits of 518 avg (ES rank 1 is 88-104 + 20% AP, so avg 96 + 2112*0,2 = 518,4). Which is spot on.

But my crits are for 684 (+32% crit bonus) where I expect 777 (+50% crit bonus)

EDIT#3:
Ok, I went to the Blasted Lands mobs to test it (no resists) and I get a +100% critical strike bonus on Explosive Shot (rather than 50% as for spells). I can only assume there's a display bug in the combat log when it comes to criticals and resists (all the criticals on the level 83 target dummy were partially resisted).

Just tried surv for the first time on PTR.

Seems it is 100% and affected by meta gem but not mortal shots. Also Wild Quiver doesnt show in the combat log on PTR either.

EDIT: Late here in Aus now so im off. Final thought though, wait for a AP proc or two -> pop trinket... cast Serpent Sting... Chimera on cd for the rest of the fight... Nerf inc?

EDIT: Ok realistically more AP wouldnt do a great deal, would have to be a damage % buff or proc, and I dont think theres any left that a MM hunter could access.. oh well..

Shandara · 09/20/08, 2:35 PM

Ok, after half an hour of firing Explosive Shots I've noticed the following thing:
a) Sniper Training is always on, no matter the range.
b) The initial hit determines the ticks' damage (not surprising since it's a DoT)
c) all 3 ticks can still proc Thrill of the Hunt and Hunting Party

Steady Shot is weird.. its' doing more damage than predicted and I can't find a reason why.

Against the level 83 target dummy (10900 armor, 48,90% mitigation), with 2112 AP and rank 2 Steady Shot, with a Fine Light Crossbow (29-29 damage) and Blackflight arrows I see:

-> 351 damage

I expect:
Rank 1 base: 108
from AP: 20% of 2112 = 422
Normalized weapon damage: 29/2,7*2,8 = 30,07
Normalized Ammo damage = 32*2,8 = 89,6

Total: 649,6 damage * ( 1 - 48,90% ) = 331

EDIT:
I found out, Sniper Training is ALSO always on for Steady Shot (331*1,06 = 350)

Chul · 09/20/08, 11:34 PM

A few more things:

Can you add the Mangle debuff to target debuffs? It's a nice dps boost to Rake (and presumably the DoT component of Savage Rend since it says that is a bleed effect).
All the glyphs that I can see are Major and shouldn't be able to be selected as minor. Wowhead lists whether something is major and minor now.
TSA and Call of the Wild only grant the pet 10%; the extra RAP from the Hunter isn't included somehow:
- Normal: 846 AP (304 base + 542 from hunter)
- TSA or CotW: 930 AP (334 + 596)
- TSA and CotW: 1024 AP (368 + 656)
However, if you turn on AotB (+10% melee AP) then it looks just like if it had TSA or CotW on it i.e the "hunter" part also has increased by +10%. Since buffs can buff both the hunter and pet, I am wondering whether things like Battle Shout and Blessing of Might would also work this way; where the pet has the buff so it doesn't get any scaling from the extra RAP fro the hunter. If someone has access to other classes buffs then that may shed some light on what is actually happening.

Aseoun · 09/21/08, 4:35 AM

Perhaps I am missing something exceedingly obvious, however, your haste modeling seems incorrect to me. You have steady shot fixed at a 1.5 speed, not 2.0 as I believe it should be. Also, obviously, your haste does not effect your steady shot dps as it should because of this, resulting in it being undervalued.

Shandara · 09/21/08, 4:41 AM

Update:

- Master Marksman's haste bonus is gone, now reduces Steady Shot mana cost by 5/10/15/20/25%
- Rabid now lasts 20 seconds (down from 30)
- Pet base agility values changed (need new info on 71-80)
- Updated scroll values to current Beta
- Ranged Weapon Spec no longer affects Stings and Chimera Shot-Serpent
- Steady Shot now affected by Sniper Training
- Chimera Shot-Serpent now deals 40% of umodified Serpent Sting damage
- Explosive Shot now has a +100% critical damage bonus
- Reworked Rake, damage per tick should now be correct
- Explosive Shot can now be resisted (and miss)
- Mangle now affects Bleed effects (Rake and Savage Rend)
- The portion of Pet AP that's added by hunter AP is now only affected by Aspect of the Beast
- Reworked Savage Rend, both hit and DoT are physical and are affected by armour
- All Glyphs are now Major ones (haven't found any minor ones yet)

@Aesoun
Perhaps you're confused on the Shot Rotation tab. I make a distinction between the cooldown (i.e. the hasted cast time of Steady Shot) and the actual time needed between actions (i.e the GCD) which is the ACTUAL cast time of an ability, regardless whether the castbar finishes before then or not.

So despite Steady Shot being hasted all the way up to 1s for BM spec with a lot of haste, you still can't fire it more than once every 1.5 seconds.

Aseoun · 09/21/08, 5:51 AM

Yeah, I didn't notice the cooldown shown in the table of allowed abilities and never saw the shot priority box cast time value above 1.5 because of windfury totem. Thanks for pointing this out for me.

Kom · 09/21/08, 7:54 AM

Couple of notes with the latest version:
In relation to CS-S, Imp Stings forms part of the base damage, atm CS-S is taking in the damage pre Imp Stings.
CS-S is affected by meta gem on the PTR, as far as I can see the spreadsheet doesn't factor it.

Other then that, looks good.

EDIT: Oh also, possible thought for a future addition, is with all the talent updates, theres a lot of shot specific crit % increases. This changes the calculations of numerous trinkets and talents that rely on crits, big job but I guess they need to be factored in.

EDIT: Couple of other minor things. I can't set the ring slot to None. Also more of a cosmetic thing, but on the version that is released you've got your helm gems in the wrong slots, just means the meta gem bonus isnt being counted for anything. Also Glyph Mastery was removed.

EDIT: Regarding the previous edit. I set it up on my spreadsheet using the following formula (verification of this would be good also!)

Average Crit %:
(SpecialsPerSecond/ShotsPerSecond)*(SteadyShotRatio*SteadyShotCritRate + ArcaneShotRatio*ArcaneShotCritRate + ..etc..) + (AutoShotPerSecond/ShotsPerSecond)*BaseCritRate

EDIT: I've never been great with working out procs and such, but I believe theres a flaw in the calculations for Shattered Sun Pendant of Might.

It's got Scryer time per proc: Cooldown + (1/ProcRate * ShotsPerSecond)
Which equals: Cooldown + (ShotsPerSecond/ProcRate)

So pretty much the more shots your doing per second, the longer it takes to proc. Which is backwards.

I think the intention was 1/(ProcRate * ShotsPerSecond).

Shandara · 09/21/08, 3:39 PM

Hmm, I can set Rings to None on my sheet without problem. Not sure what the problem here is.

As for CS-Serpent, that's correct; I'd forgotten Imp. Stings.

For the crit chances, that's something I should be able to do. Computing a composite crit chance over all your shots based on the % each type of shot has should be easy.

I'd recently cleaned up the helm data list (i.e. putting the meta slot as 2nd for every helm, some had it as first), but I'd forgotten to change it on the gear list I was using for testing purpose. Good catch!

Update:

- Relentless Earthstorm/Earthsiege bonus now applies to CS-Serpent
- CS-Serpent now is affected by Improved Stings
- Selecting TrueShot Aura as a buff (not yours) will work now
- Removed Glyph Mastery extra glyph
- Reworked some trinket calculations (Shatter Sun pendant, Band of the Eternal Champion), please review
- Trinkets/Talents that work off criticals now use the correct critical chance for shots that differ from the base crit chance (e.g. talented Explosive Shot)

Kom · 09/21/08, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Hmm, I can set Rings to None on my sheet without problem. Not sure what the problem here is.

As for CS-Serpent, that's correct; I'd forgotten Imp. Stings.

For the crit chances, that's something I should be able to do. Computing a composite crit chance over all your shots based on the % each type of shot has should be easy.

I'd recently cleaned up the helm data list (i.e. putting the meta slot as 2nd for every helm, some had it as first), but I'd forgotten to change it on the gear list I was using for testing purpose. Good catch!

Update:

- Relentless Earthstorm/Earthsiege bonus now applies to CS-Serpent
- CS-Serpent now is affected by Improved Stings
- Selecting TrueShot Aura as a buff (not yours) will work now
- Removed Glyph Mastery extra glyph
- Reworked some trinket calculations (Shatter Sun pendant, Band of the Eternal Champion), please review
- Trinkets/Talents that work off criticals now use the correct critical chance for shots that differ from the base crit chance (e.g. talented Explosive Shot)

The CompositeCritChance seems to be bugged atm, giving a lower number than the base. Quite late here and I'm falling asleep so can't be to specific atm on what the probably was, I just noticed when I opened it with whatever settings it was on that one of the trinkets showed a lower number than the base.

Also I was fiddling around with the previous version and I think theres an error with shot rotation for Aimed Shot. The settings I applied we're basic Rapid Fire (102%), Quiver and both Haste buffs and 0.2 latency. To give a cast time of 2.07. Upon setting the first shot to Aimed Shot, I get a frequency of 6.81. So if I am right this is implying that you are firing an Aimed Shot every 6.81 seconds, which isn't possible with these settings because even without latency it would be 8.07 seconds between damage hits.

EDIT: Just a note with the Aimed Shot before I head off, if I am correct about it then the correct frequency should be 9.08 I believe, that's what my spreadsheet is giving back, mind you most of my formulas are shortcuts. To late now to try get my head around how yours goes about obtaining those numbers. I'll check back later, see what the prognosis is. Cheers.

Shandara · 09/21/08, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kom

The CompositeCritChance seems to be bugged atm, giving a lower number than the base. Quite late here and I'm falling asleep so can't be to specific atm on what the probably was, I just noticed when I opened it with whatever settings it was on that one of the trinkets showed a lower number than the base.

Also I was fiddling around with the previous version and I think theres an error with shot rotation for Aimed Shot. The settings I applied we're basic Rapid Fire (102%), Quiver and both Haste buffs and 0.2 latency. To give a cast time of 2.07. Upon setting the first shot to Aimed Shot, I get a frequency of 6.81. So if I am right this is implying that you are firing an Aimed Shot every 6.81 seconds, which isn't possible with these settings because even without latency it would be 8.07 seconds between damage hits.

EDIT: Just a note with the Aimed Shot before I head off, if I am correct about it then the correct frequency should be 9.08 I believe, that's what my spreadsheet is giving back, mind you most of my formulas are shortcuts. To late now to try get my head around how yours goes about obtaining those numbers. I'll check back later, see what the prognosis is. Cheers.

's my fault. I shouldn't be trying to add stuff after coming home from a BBQ (and free drinks!). Anyway, the CompositeCritChance is counting Serpent Sting as a shot with 0% crit chance, so it's skewing the rate.

I'll look into the Aimed Shot thing.

EDIT: uploaded a fixed version of the composite crit rate fix

EDIT#2:
Figured out what's ailing Aimed Shot. The cooldown is a fixed 6 seconds, when it should be 6 secs + cast time.

Update:

- TSA should not work correctly as a (external) buff for pets/hunters again
- Aimed shot now has the correct cooldown
- Aimed Shot should now have the correct frequency
- Added a new 'Rotation Test' tab where it builds the selected rotation and tries to find the point where it repeats.

The Rotation Test tab strictly follows the priority queue that's been set up. It doesn't do waiting for CDs; if a shot is on CD it's not used until it's off.
It doesn't factor in procs that affect Steady Shot casting speed, but since with full buffs you'll be below the GCD it shouldn't be a problem. Turn off averaging on the Settings and Results tab if you want to remove those procs.

Ebonleaf · 09/22/08, 1:23 PM

Something is really wrong with the pet tab. When switching around pets, it will sometimes not include abilites as dps or it will read an ability twice and apply the damage twice, raising your overall dps falsely.

When i swap from devilsaur to cat, then change from bite to rake, rake will show 0 dps. Once i change it to claw, rake doesn't work in the first slot, but will in the 2nd. Then it does the double apply thing. Just really wierd stuff. You may want to take a look at it.

Shandara · 09/22/08, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ebonleaf

Something is really wrong with the pet tab. When switching around pets, it will sometimes not include abilites as dps or it will read an ability twice and apply the damage twice, raising your overall dps falsely.

When i swap from devilsaur to cat, then change from bite to rake, rake will show 0 dps. Once i change it to claw, rake doesn't work in the first slot, but will in the 2nd. Then it does the double apply thing. Just really wierd stuff. You may want to take a look at it.

I have been unable to reproduce this. Could you upload a bugged version somewhere for me to look at? I.e. set it up so it shows the bug.

Note that you should never include an ability more than once in the priority queue, since it will count the DPS double. This is not a bug, it's just how it's designed. Call it user-error.

EDIT:
Also note that if you place an ability with a 1.5 pet CD (like Claw) on a higher priority than another ability, anything below it will not be used since it'll use up all the remaining pet CDs.

Ebonleaf · 09/22/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

I have been unable to reproduce this. Could you upload a bugged version somewhere for me to look at? I.e. set it up so it shows the bug.

Note that you should never include an ability more than once in the priority queue, since it will count the DPS double. This is not a bug, it's just how it's designed. Call it user-error.

How about a ss?

Shandara · 09/22/08, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ebonleaf

How about a ss?

<snip picture>

See my Edit of the previous post.

The priority queue is top to bottom. The highest ability is used as much as it can. Bite has a 1.5 Pet CD so it eats them all up.

Reverse the order and it should work.

Ebonleaf · 09/22/08, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

See my Edit of the previous post.

The priority queue is top to bottom. The highest ability is used as much as it can. Bite has a 1.5 Pet CD so it eats them all up.

Reverse the order and it should work.

Ok, I did, and yes, to an extent it does work. However, it still does leave call of the wild and Rabid at 0 dps. Even if i take out bite and monsterous bite making those two the only active abilities. They should raise even his base dps at that point, which they aren't.

And in beta his focus is almost always full, so he almost always has all of his specials going every fight.

Shandara · 09/22/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Ebonleaf

Ok, I did, and yes, to an extent it does work. However, it still does leave call of the wild and Rabid at 0 dps. Even if i take out bite and monsterous bite making those two the only active abilities. They should raise even his base dps at that point, which they aren't.

And in beta his focus is almost always full, so he almost always has all of his specials going every fight.

Rabid doesn't do any damage and neither does Call of the Wild.

Instead the effects are averaged out and added to your pets stat's, since the effects apply to both base dps and pet skills.

You can test this by removing all abilities and then adding Rabid. Base dps goes up. Or putting Claw as 2nd and then add Rabid as first, both Claw and base dps will go up. Although Claw only very marginally since you _are_ replacing a claw with a Rabid (which results in a loss of damage).

Ebonleaf · 09/22/08, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Rabid doesn't do any damage and neither does Call of the Wild.

Instead the effects are averaged out and added to your pets stat's, since the effects apply to both base dps and pet skills.

You can test this by removing all abilities and then adding Rabid. Base dps goes up. Or putting Claw as 2nd and then add Rabid as first, both Claw and base dps will go up. Although Claw only very marginally since you _are_ replacing a claw with a Rabid (which results in a loss of damage).

It gives me a div error and doesn't work. And Rabid & Call of the Wild both should raise his dps a fair bit more than they seem to be.

Scryed · 09/22/08, 2:12 PM

It's probably because I'm using Excel 2007 but when I try to filter items so that I only see WotLK 5-man drops it always displays Naxx 10 and 25 items as well. Is there something I can do to manually fix this?

Thanks

Shandara · 09/22/08, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ebonleaf

It gives me a div error and doesn't work. And Rabid & Call of the Wild both should raise his dps a fair bit more than they seem to be.

I've caught the error if you remove all abilities already while I was trying to figure out if there was something wrong.

Call of the Wild is a very very marginal DPS boost, mostly because of the extremely long CD.

Rabid is, on average, a 12% (for BM) or 9% (for MM/SV) Pet AP boost. This doesn't mean it's a 12/9% damage increase tho. More around ~5/6%.

@Scryed:
Good catch, there was a typo in button so it wasn't triggering it when you disabled Naxx loot. Should be fixed in next release.

EDIT
Uploaded a fix (V71a) for both issues.

Chul · 09/22/08, 8:32 PM

It looks like you're including crit when dealing with the damage adjustment of DoTs from pet specials.

Shandara · 09/23/08, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Chul

It looks like you're including crit when dealing with the damage adjustment of DoTs from pet specials.

Ye, a bug with Rake. I haven't tested the other DoT abilities yet since I can't tame a spirit beast myself (being only level 70 has its drawbacks).

Does the new Fire Breath of Dragonhawks crit on its first hit or not?
Same goes for Lava Breath.