WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 89

sihyunie · 04/24/09, 4:37 AM

Originally Posted by VRoscioli

I don't know that I agree with this point, since the damage done by SS also affects the damage done by CS (I'm estimating from spreadsheet figures around 700 dps for the combined effects of SS, whereas my pet is putting out about 1200 dps).

But that's neither here nor there. After swapping the item (and only that item) in the spreadsheet, I gain ~25 dps, without even regemming to get rid of ~0.9% extra hit. So why is the spreadsheet saying that the T7 shoulders are better when the T8.5 shoulders *by themselves* are a significant dps upgrade?

I believe it's because if you have 2 pieces of T7 equipped, it knows that you are getting 2pc bonus and if you just change one to T8, you lose significant bonus such that you lose dps. Also, it might have something to do with T8 having too much hit.

Nooska · 04/24/09, 4:45 AM

Originally Posted by sihyunie

I believe it's because if you have 2 pieces of T7 equipped, it knows that you are getting 2pc bonus and if you just change one to T8, you lose significant bonus such that you lose dps. Also, it might have something to do with T8 having too much hit.

That line of reasoning doesn't compute for me; When I switch out of the 2t7 bonus as bm (where it clearly is wanted) to a higher gear piece and resort the gaer, all the t7 pieces are suddenly at or very near the tope (depending on the exact item) because of the extra dps gain from the 2t7.
The spreadsheet clearly valuates the boni for delta purposes in the gearplanner (don't ask me how though)

slashy · 04/24/09, 7:11 AM

In 87a, Mirror of Truth beats Fury of the Five Flights by about 3dps whereas it used to be the opposite. How can it be explained?

Nooska · 04/24/09, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by slashy

In 87a, Mirror of Truth beats Fury of the Five Flights by about 3dps whereas it used to be the opposite. How can it be explained?

Compared to which version? (All versions have changes, some bug changes, some mechanic changes)
Did you switch any gear or buffs, at all?

Remember the values change relatively according to your crit and haste (it may not be much, but just enough to make a 6 dps difference which is what you are reporting).
Haste favors [Fury of the Five Flights] as you get the stacks up faster, so they apply for more specials in the same duration fight.
Crit favors [Mirror of Truth] because it only procs on crits - have less crits and it will have lower uptime - more crits and you get more uptime.

Mippy · 04/24/09, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by VRoscioli

I was looking at this earlier as well, and the reason for this is that if you are using a 2h weapon, it deducts the current enchant from the MH value and none from the OH value (making all 1H weapons look better as OH than MH). I don't know if there is any rationale behind doing this rather than splitting it evenly over the two slots.

Moreover, if you have a 2H weapon equipped, it compares the 2H weapon values against the "default" enchant you list, rather than what you actually have. (The same situation applies for 1H weapons if you have 1H weapons equipped.) I would claim this is probably a bug, albeit a somewhat pedantic nitpick.

I would like to add to this that I noticed some quite buggy behavior when changing the default enchants for MH/OH. I currently have 26 agi on my weaps, which is loaded correctly in the gear tab, and when I go to the gear planner and change the default enchants, it changes the current DPS values of my weaps. Furthermore, the value of my MH changes every time I hit the Sort Gear button (toggling between two values 10.11 apart). I don't think it makes sense that the spreadsheet is acting as if the default enchant is applied to the current weapons (I'm hit capped, so 26 agi > Accuracy, but changing the default enchant from Accuracy to 26 agi lowers my current equips' DPS), but rather some other bug there.

Another thing I noticed - when I use the Ranged Weapons button, I invariably end up with a block of weapons showing up at identical DPS (right now, Veranus' Bane, Rifle of the Platinum Guardian, Drake-mounted Crossbow, and Mimiron's Repeater all showing up at -18.47, which isn't even remotely possible). Also, Twisted Visage is showing as ~40 DPS higher than Lotrafen (I'm hit capped and the two essentially have the same stats except Visage has hit and Lotrafen has ArP), which again can't be.

KraxisSingular · 04/24/09, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Nooska

Compared to which version? (All versions have changes, some bug changes, some mechanic changes)
Did you switch any gear or buffs, at all?

Remember the values change relatively according to your crit and haste (it may not be much, but just enough to make a 6 dps difference which is what you are reporting).
Haste favors [Fury of the Five Flights] as you get the stacks up faster, so they apply for more specials in the same duration fight.
Crit favors [Mirror of Truth] because it only procs on crits - have less crits and it will have lower uptime - more crits and you get more uptime.

Doubt that is the reason. I have lost crit since I changed to FFF (other than from MoT of course), back then it was an upgrade, now it is a downgrade (talking 1.5 DPS so it hardly matters). I don't know what to make of it.

In any case, since ES no longer stacks on FFF I think I will take MoT since I will get the full value on trash and fights where I might have to wait or un or something like that. It was an advantage I was willing to forego before, but now that ES seems bugged to a degree I don't think I can allow it any longer.

• VRoscioli · 04/24/09, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mippy

I don't think it makes sense that the spreadsheet is acting as if the default enchant is applied to the current weapons (I'm hit capped, so 26 agi > Accuracy, but changing the default enchant from Accuracy to 26 agi lowers my current equips' DPS), but rather some other bug there.

This is what I was trying to describe. The following is what the spreadsheet is doing (if you have 1H weapons equipped):

1. Calculate the DPS value of each weapon
Included in this calculation is the assumption that you are using the "default" enchant on your weapons, not what you actually have. This means that changing the default enchants will change the value of your current weapons in the gear planner, but will cause potential upgrades to change by the same amount (that is, stay the same relative to your current weapons).

2. Add these values and treat this as the "DPS" to compare potential 2H weapon upgrades to
However, while this DPS value is determined by your "default" enchants, the DPS values of potential 2H weapon upgrades are affected by what you *actually have on your weapons*.

The opposite is true if using a 2H weapon:

1. Calculate the DPS value of the 2H weapon
Included in this calculation is the assumption that you are using the "default" enchant on your 2H weapon, not what you actually have. This means that changing the default enchant will change the value of your current weapon in the gear planner, but will cause potential upgrades to change by the same amount (that is, stay the same relative to your current weapon).

2. Divide this value by 2 and treat this as the "DPS" for each 1H weapon to compare potential upgrades to
However, the DPS values for MH/OH is calculated using what you currently have equipped, not the default enchant. As such, it will deduct a large value from potential MH upgrades (because you have a MH enchant) but nothing from your potential OH upgrades (because you have no OH weapon and thus no OH enchant).

The Consequences

What this means is that comparing 1H weapons to each other works as expected (compares using the same enchantment DPS increase) and that comparing 2H weapons to each other works as expected (compares using the same enchantment DPS increase), but comparing 1H weapons to 2H weapons does not work as well.

Solutions to this "problem"

Either compare all weapons as though they have the "default" enchantment value or compare potential upgrades as though they have the default enchants while using the current enchants for the current weapons (as it is presumably supposed to be now, but corrected).

Mippy · 04/24/09, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by VRoscioli

This is what I was trying to describe. The following is what the spreadsheet is doing (if you have 1H weapons equipped):

1. Calculate the DPS value of each weapon
Included in this calculation is the assumption that you are using the "default" enchant on your weapons, not what you actually have. This means that changing the default enchants will change the value of your current weapons in the gear planner, but will cause potential upgrades to change by the same amount (that is, stay the same relative to your current weapons).

*snip*

I'm not convinced this is the case, because the relative positions of my weapons on the list DO change when I change (both) default enchants, and they shouldn't according to what you laid out. Though that could be related to the problem I mentioned where the value of my MH changes when I hit the sort button, and they could be two separate bugs.

• VRoscioli · 04/24/09, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mippy

I'm not convinced this is the case, because the relative positions of my weapons on the list DO change when I change (both) default enchants, and they shouldn't according to what you laid out. Though that could be related to the problem I mentioned where the value of my MH changes when I hit the sort button, and they could be two separate bugs.

Upon further inspection, you appear to be correct. I looked at the MH and OH formulas and thought the only change was the enchant calculation, but its also doing something with hit.

The MH DPS calculation has the term:

+ (DpsHitCompare * IF(MeleeHit+HitRatingToCap>0,IF(MeleeHit+HitRatingToCap>AL5+$J$145,AL5+$J$145,MeleeHit+HitRatingToCap),0)) +

While the OH DPS calculation has the term:

+ (DpsHitCompare * IF(OffHandHit+HitRatingToCap>0,IF(OffHandHit+HitRatingToCap>AL5+$J$146,AL5+$J$146,OffHandHit+HitRatingToCap),0)) +

$J$145 and $J$146 are the hit values from the (adjusted) enchants from MH and OH weapon, respectively. That is, $J$145 is the DefaultHit-CurrentHit where DefaultHit is the hit granted by the default enchant and CurrentHit is the hit granted by the current enchant (on the MH weapon). So adjusting either the current or default enchant could lead to weird behavior, I suppose.

Haggypants · 04/24/09, 11:14 PM

So, i've been playing with the excel sheet trying to figure out what is the bis now and what we need for hit and what we need that doesnt have hit on it. I plugged in a 4 set of scourge for set bonus. I'm wondering if anyone has figured out the bis yet. Ill still be trucking away at it if not.

GwolfGarona · 04/24/09, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Haggypants

So, i've been playing with the excel sheet trying to figure out what is the bis now and what we need for hit and what we need that doesnt have hit on it. I plugged in a 4 set of scourge for set bonus. I'm wondering if anyone has figured out the bis yet. Ill still be trucking away at it if not.

Best Possible DPS in Shandaras WotLK Spreadsheet is the forum for using the spreadsheet to discover BiS. This forum is for checking the accuracy of the sheet in determining BiS. No need to combine the two threads

Riceman · 04/25/09, 2:51 AM

So, i must be stupid or something. For some reason when i try to click on "load from armory" button it doesn't work, I followed the directions too. Can someone help me out please?

Mr Tazza · 04/25/09, 3:05 AM

Wrong thread, sorry

Lactose · 04/25/09, 8:57 AM

Missing: [Chestguard of Insidious Intent] -- Ulduar 25

Zoen · 04/25/09, 11:14 AM

Hi, could you have a look at the mechanics of silencing shot in the shot rotation test tab? it seems to be waiting a GCD before casting the next shot.

The10 · 04/25/09, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Riceman

So, i must be stupid or something. For some reason when i try to click on "load from armory" button it doesn't work, I followed the directions too. Can someone help me out please?

Maybe you need to activate Macros and ActiveX Elements. Look for a horizontal yellow bar in the upper fifth of your screen in Excel titled "security blabla" (Office 2007).

Riceman · 04/25/09, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by The10

Maybe you need to activate Macros and ActiveX Elements. Look for a horizontal yellow bar in the upper fifth of your screen in Excel titled "security blabla" (Office 2007).

I don't have Office 2007, I have 2003. Does that matter?

Nooska · 04/25/09, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Riceman

I don't have Office 2007, I have 2003. Does that matter?

Then its probably a setting option.

I use 2003 as well (My mom bought it and it had 3 licenses, so me and my SO each have it as well) and the spreadsheet works fine - I did have to go and change t he security for the sheets to lower than the standard which blocks macros.
I believe that tehre is a good description of how to do it in the beginning of the thread, as I followed a guide from here.

Allara · 04/25/09, 3:31 PM

[Tunic of the Limber Stalker] has had it's stats adjusted. It no longer has the 63 armor penetration.

Argg0 · 04/26/09, 4:19 AM

I Still get no change on pet DPS by specing into feeding frenzy (Cunning)...

and [Relentless Gladiator's War Edge] has not been included yet.

Rezdan · 04/26/09, 4:41 AM

Originally Posted by Zoen

Hi, could you have a look at the mechanics of silencing shot in the shot rotation test tab? it seems to be waiting a GCD before casting the next shot.

Those mechanics are correct iirc. Silencing shot is on the gcd (waits for gcd to cast) but does not cause a gcd.

GwolfGarona · 04/26/09, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Argg0

I Still get no change on pet DPS by specing into feeding frenzy (Cunning)...

and [Relentless Gladiator's War Edge] has not been included yet.

set boss health below 35% and see your DPS jump. The spreadsheet does not (can not?) reflect the target losing health over a duration. Kill Shot has an extra little box on the shot rotation tab that predicts the benefit of using it, but she has it currently set up to ignore feeding frenzy completely if you set the boss HP to over 35%.

Shandara · 04/26/09, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by GwolfGarona

set boss health below 35% and see your DPS jump. The spreadsheet does not (can not?) reflect the target losing health over a duration. Kill Shot has an extra little box on the shot rotation tab that predicts the benefit of using it, but she has it currently set up to ignore feeding frenzy completely if you set the boss HP to over 35%.

I will adjust this to work the same as Kill Shot for the next release.

As for the Gear Planner, I've been considering how to 'fix' it so comparisons between 1h and 2h are accurate, but Excel formulas are such a kludgy way of doing it.

Mr Tazza · 04/26/09, 7:34 PM

All hardmode loots but algalon's available on mmochamp! Go update!

Allara · 04/26/09, 7:52 PM

I wonder if it would be possible to identify the hard mode loot as such in the gear planner? I imagine it'd be nice to include a checkbox to turn that gear off, as well.