WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 9

Chul · 09/07/08, 9:32 PM

There is a problem with how you calculate the damage reduction from armour. It is using a hardcoded value of 70 for the attacker level, rather than what you've got selected on the front page. This means that physical damage shots lose a lot more damage to armour than what should be the case, and makes magic shots look better.

Shandara · 09/08/08, 4:09 AM

Update:

- Gear Planner now supports ranged weapons, use the separate button for it.
- Redid the Gear Planner. All TBC-loot is now classed under 'The Burning Crusade' to make room for WotLK Raid dungeons
- Armor Calculations now use the correct level you selected, instead of a hardcoded level 70 value
- Added some more Naxx-10 loot

Notes:
The gear planner compares all ranged weapons with a mythical 0-0 damage/0 dps/0 stats weapon which fires at 2,8 speed. It basically tries all the weapons in the spreadsheet one by one, so it's a tad slow (takes about a minute on my Core Duo E8500).

It doesn't fiddle with ammo/quiver since those are just for flavor anyway and swapping from a gun pouch to an arrow pouch has no actual effect. It doesn't swap gems though if a weapon has sockets, but unfortunately having it check the entire gear-set for correct gems on item changes during the calculations proved to be a bit prohibitive (it slows it down considerably). I'll probably calculate the bonus damage from sockets separately in a future version.

To prepare for WotLK raid dungeons I've renamed all TBC loot to a single name 'The Burning Crusade' (instead of Sunwell/MH/etc..) which you can enable/disable on the gear planner. I plan to remove lower-level gear at some point to reduce the spreadsheet size.

What do you guys think? Personally I feel gear from these instances is basically obsolete anyway when WotLK raiding hits:
* TBC 5-man/quest gear
* Karahzan
* Gruul's Lair
* Magtheridon
* Tempest Keep
* The Eye
* Mount Hyjal
* Black Temple

Exceptions would be trinkets mostly. And maybe 1 or 2 special items.

Chul · 09/08/08, 5:16 AM

Haste from buffs is 0% if you don't specify both Windfury and Swift Retribution.

EDIT:
Another bug:

I took the base spreadsheet and loaded my gear from the armoury. It still had the +agility enchant on my non-existant offhand, and it also had 2 gems in my PvP trinket.

Also, are you planning on adding back the ability to stop the averaging out of BW, Racials, Trinkets etc that Cheeky had in his original spreadsheet?

EDIT #2:

TSA and AB stack when they shouldn't. Currently it means you can get +20% AP

Also, doesn't look like you've got Rampage (Rampage now works on ranged) or FI in the buffs section (Sanctified Retribution is there, but doesn't seem to do much).

Ebonleaf · 09/08/08, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Update:

- Gear Planner now supports ranged weapons, use the separate button for it.
- Redid the Gear Planner. All TBC-loot is now classed under 'The Burning Crusade' to make room for WotLK Raid dungeons
- Armor Calculations now use the correct level you selected, instead of a hardcoded level 70 value
- Added some more Naxx-10 loot

Notes:
The gear planner compares all ranged weapons with a mythical 0-0 damage/0 dps/0 stats weapon which fires at 2,8 speed. It basically tries all the weapons in the spreadsheet one by one, so it's a tad slow (takes about a minute on my Core Duo E8500).

It doesn't fiddle with ammo/quiver since those are just for flavor anyway and swapping from a gun pouch to an arrow pouch has no actual effect. It doesn't swap gems though if a weapon has sockets, but unfortunately having it check the entire gear-set for correct gems on item changes during the calculations proved to be a bit prohibitive (it slows it down considerably). I'll probably calculate the bonus damage from sockets separately in a future version.

To prepare for WotLK raid dungeons I've renamed all TBC loot to a single name 'The Burning Crusade' (instead of Sunwell/MH/etc..) which you can enable/disable on the gear planner. I plan to remove lower-level gear at some point to reduce the spreadsheet size.

What do you guys think? Personally I feel gear from these instances is basically obsolete anyway when WotLK raiding hits:
* TBC 5-man/quest gear
* Karahzan
* Gruul's Lair
* Magtheridon
* Tempest Keep
* The Eye
* Mount Hyjal
* Black Temple

Exceptions would be trinkets mostly. And maybe 1 or 2 special items.

Alot of the stuff (BoJ, Sunwell, t5/6) is surpisingly good. There will still be some items, as you said, that will be hard to replace. (even at 80) For now, until we start seeing more gear and itemization you might leave them in.

♦ Xyriin · 09/08/08, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

To prepare for WotLK raid dungeons I've renamed all TBC loot to a single name 'The Burning Crusade' (instead of Sunwell/MH/etc..) which you can enable/disable on the gear planner. I plan to remove lower-level gear at some point to reduce the spreadsheet size.

What do you guys think? Personally I feel gear from these instances is basically obsolete anyway when WotLK raiding hits:
* TBC 5-man/quest gear
* Karahzan
* Gruul's Lair
* Magtheridon
* Tempest Keep
* The Eye
* Mount Hyjal
* Black Temple

Exceptions would be trinkets mostly. And maybe 1 or 2 special items.

I think you are correct in stating that most of the gear will be obsolete. However, when WotLK goes live it will be a while before all the gear is replaced. Right off the bat it would be safe to remove BC dungeon/quest gear as those items will be rapidly replaced and in all honesty using this spreadsheet is not for the casual hunter in most cases. The t6 gear, and especially SW gear will see a bit longer lifespan and many raiders will be theorycrafting that gear in mixed sets with WotLK Naxx gear but I think there might be a simple solution to that as well. How about adding another custom gear set? You have the code already for generic custom gear, how about simply adding a duplicate of that and label it BC Custom. Maybe even BC Custom 1&2 to cover alternate gear options. All the hunters could take their final gear and manually enter it into the BC custom section and it should be a one time thing since they won't be picking up BC gear once WotLK hits. This would allow you to completely eliminate all of the BC items including those 'special' ones since everyone will have the custom gear spots to be able to retain those items.

On the other hand I'd like to suggest a possible design change for gear listing. I really think the check box filtering on the gear planner is very useful. I think it would be even more beneficial if it could be applied to the gear tab as well. In other words, if you don't have say 'Naxx10' selected in the gear planning tab then those items from Naxx10 also won't appear in the drop down selection lists in the gear tab. Once again down the road if there are one or two superior items from lower content someone could simply enter those in as custom items.

If you do decided to do some work on the Custom Gear tab some item name integration would be pretty sweet so we can tell what those numbers are for at a glance.

Shandara · 09/08/08, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ebonleaf

Alot of the stuff (BoJ, Sunwell, t5/6) is surpisingly good. There will still be some items, as you said, that will be hard to replace. (even at 80) For now, until we start seeing more gear and itemization you might leave them in.

If you read the post carefully, I say 'when WotLK raiding hits'. I have no plans to ditch TBC gear right away. But anything pre-Sunwell will probably be replaced when you start Naxx10/25 (excepting Trinkets).

@Chul:
The non-averaging of trinkets/talents was only useful if you'd put them in your shot rotation manually though. Since the current sheet doesn't use an actual rotation, there's no way of doing the effects manually.

Thanks for the bug reports!

Edit:
After thinking about it for a while, Rampage does exactly the same as LotP. Except for the fact that it only lasts 10 seconds. The chance for a fury warrior NOT to crit in a 10 second window is fairly small.

Assume a 40% crit rate for the warrior and doing 1 attack/special per second (probably a lowball figure what with dual-wielding and having instant specials), you'd have a (1-0,4)^10 chance NOT to crit, or 0,6%.

So I'll cop out and just lump it with Leader of the Pack instead of making a separate buff for it. They don't stack anyway so it's a win-win situation!

Chul · 09/08/08, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

@Chul:
The non-averaging of trinkets/talents was only useful if you'd put them in your shot rotation manually though. Since the current sheet doesn't use an actual rotation, there's no way of doing the effects manually.

When you're testing, you don't want too many variables so disabling various trinkets, racials and spells becomes handy. For example, when we start really doing DPS checks against the target dummies, I want to be able to turn off as much variability as possible, including the averaging and check the average damage of shots against the spreadsheet.

Also, it helps to check if the spreadsheet is calculating your stats correctly (which makes it hard when the RAP from trinkets and racials needs to be manually removed from the spreadsheet RAP to see if it matches your character sheet).

So think of it as a way to test the spreadsheet. If it is too hard to put back it, don't worry too much, but I personally would find it handy.

Chul · 09/09/08, 12:05 AM

A few points:

Frequency of pet abilities should probably consider the GCD. For example, an ability with a 10s cooldown can only really be cast every 10.5s due to the GCD of the pet.
Can other mana costing spell/abilties be included somehow, for example, Bestial Wrath? It's not much, but it all adds up.
Acid Spit (aka pet Sunder Armour) and Sting (aka pet FF/CoW) armour reductions could lower the targets armour if they are in the pets rotation, and their other non-stacking equivalents aren't selected.
Gear Planner bug: Open up the spreadsheet (probably best if it is freshly downloaded just in case), uncheck Leather->Burning Crusade and also 5-man content. Hit Ranged Weapons and 'None' and 'Custom' are shown as #3 and #4 on the list even though it lists their dps as zero. The first time I was playing around with it, I got them both to #1 and #2 which is why I saw the bug.

Cranch · 09/09/08, 1:33 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

What do you guys think? Personally I feel gear from these instances is basically obsolete anyway when WotLK raiding hits:
* TBC 5-man/quest gear
* Karahzan
* Gruul's Lair
* Magtheridon
* Tempest Keep
* The Eye
* Mount Hyjal
* Black Temple

Exceptions would be trinkets mostly. And maybe 1 or 2 special items.

Obsolete doesn't mean they won't be used for months yet. Not everyone's going to hit 80 immediately and focus on LK raiding. As long as it doesn't hurt your updates to leave the old stuff in, I'd keep them around.

meero · 09/09/08, 2:06 AM

In Pet Calc tab, spiked collar is not working for tenacity tree. It is referencing the wrong value. Set to K9 should be M7.

Would it be possible based on pet family to ignore other trees or grey them out. For example when comparing pets from differing families i.e. Tenacity vs Ferocity it's going to be annoying to change the pet, reset talents, readd talents. I'd imagine i'd have default values in how I spend my talents for each tree that won't be changing so ideally i'd just put them all in and have the ones not relevant ignored.

So Talent Points left/spent would only work on the active pet tree based on pet. Pet calculations would also change to check current pet family. i.e. rough code for spiked collar example If Pet!C4=Ferocity then 1+G9 or if ....

Shandara · 09/09/08, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by Chul

When you're testing, you don't want too many variables so disabling various trinkets, racials and spells becomes handy. For example, when we start really doing DPS checks against the target dummies, I want to be able to turn off as much variability as possible, including the averaging and check the average damage of shots against the spreadsheet.

Also, it helps to check if the spreadsheet is calculating your stats correctly (which makes it hard when the RAP from trinkets and racials needs to be manually removed from the spreadsheet RAP to see if it matches your character sheet).

So think of it as a way to test the spreadsheet. If it is too hard to put back it, don't worry too much, but I personally would find it handy.

This is a good suggestion and I'll work on it.

What abilities to consider though. So far I can think of, these are User-triggered things:
* Trinkets/Gear procs
* Bestial Wrath
* Ferocious Inspiration (well, controllable as in recalling your pet)
* Call of the Wild (alternatively you could just turn it off in the pet rotation

Other candidates (uncontrollable procs)
* Improved Steady Shot
* Wild Quiver
* Cobra Strikes (pet damage only so less interesting since FI is disabled too)
* IaotH and DST (don't affect shot damage, just DPS)
* Lock and Load (doesn't really mess with damage figures of shots, though)
* All mana-regen talents/abilities (don't really apply since we're talking about shot damage testing)
* Expose Weakness (uptime usually high enough not to mess with calculations)
* Master Tactician (only improves crit chance so doesn't mess with damage ranges)

I guess the idea is to switch of random/variable modifications to shot damage so it becomes easier to see average damage and match it in-game.

Ebonleaf · 09/09/08, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Cranch

Obsolete doesn't mean they won't be used for months yet. Not everyone's going to hit 80 immediately and focus on LK raiding. As long as it doesn't hurt your updates to leave the old stuff in, I'd keep them around.

That was my thinking as well.

Ravenfire · 09/09/08, 1:25 PM

Dwarf Stat and stats in general update

I hit level 77 and gained the following:
1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 2 int, 2 spi, 129 health and 196 mana
Strength, agility, and stamina all conitune to follow the predicted pattern. Intellect and Spirit obviously don't and will have to be noted on a per level basis. A major change to my previous data, I just assumed that the health and mana gains where base gains. I now know that it was a mistake to assume such. The health/mana gains you see when you ding are total gains. To get the base gains you need to subtract the base stat gains, so for level 77 my actual base gains were:
1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 2 int, 2 spi, 109 health and 166 mana

Re-doing the other two levels i have proper data on:
76: 1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 1 int, 1 spi, 108 health and 166 mana
75: 1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 1 int, 1 spi, 107 health and 167 mana

Base health increases appear to increase 1 per level and base mana increases appears to be rather flat though it does appear to vary some. I should have caught this sooner but the Base mana cost of the few spells i was double checking my calculations against weren't off enought for me to notice (knowing the mana cost of chimera shot as being in the 640's for lvl 74 is different then knowing that it cost exactly 647 instead of 643).

Shandara · 09/09/08, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenfire

Dwarf Stat and stats in general update

I hit level 77 and gained the following:
1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 2 int, 2 spi, 129 health and 196 mana
Strength, agility, and stamina all conitune to follow the predicted pattern. Intellect and Spirit obviously don't and will have to be noted on a per level basis. A major change to my previous data, I just assumed that the health and mana gains where base gains. I now know that it was a mistake to assume such. The health/mana gains you see when you ding are total gains. To get the base gains you need to subtract the base stat gains, so for level 77 my actual base gains were:
1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 2 int, 2 spi, 109 health and 166 mana

Re-doing the other two levels i have proper data on:
76: 1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 1 int, 1 spi, 108 health and 166 mana
75: 1 str, 3 agi, 2 sta, 1 int, 1 spi, 107 health and 167 mana

Base health increases appear to increase 1 per level and base mana increases appears to be rather flat though it does appear to vary some. I should have caught this sooner but the Base mana cost of the few spells i was double checking my calculations against weren't off enought for me to notice (knowing the mana cost of chimera shot as being in the 640's for lvl 74 is different then knowing that it cost exactly 647 instead of 643).

I think the Int/Spi values are probably rounding errors. It must be somewhere between 1 and 2 so every few levels a +2 value pops up.

Big update:

- Armory import now clears enchants/gems properly again
- TSA, Abomination's Might and similar AP %-increasing talents now don't stack anymore 
- Fixed gear planner ranged weapon bug
- Pet skill rotation now limits use of abilities to the GCD
- New option 'Disable Averages' on settings and results. Setting it to 'Yes' will remove the effects of procs and averaged out abilities/talents (like Bestial Wrath and Ferocious Inspiration) from all calculations
- Currently affected abilities/skills: Bestial Wrath, Ferocious Inspirtation, Call of the Wild, Gear procs, Orc Bloodfury, Rapid Fire
- You can now save up to 5 talent specs, exporting and importing them should work as well. You can not name the specs (yet)
- Greatly speeded up the saving/loading of buff profiles
- Ranged Weapon Gear planner now only checks those weapons that correspond to the drop locations you selected. This should hopefully cut down the calculation time a little.
- Option 'Automatic Spell Selection'. Selects spell ranks based on level.
- Great Stamina, Natural Armor, Spiked Collar and Cobra Reflexes are now mutually exclusive for the pet talent trees, so points in other trees don't increase them

I made a lot of changes under the hood (mostly cleaning up stuff, still a lot to do), so I might have broken less obvious stuff.

Bikiniwax · 09/09/08, 2:43 PM

This is a great spreadsheet. My only suggestion is that there is another offshoot of Cheeky's spreadsheet being updated (pre-WotLK) but it has a very similar name when you download it. I know this is a small request, but would it be possible for the file to be renamed a little differently when it is downloaded? Maybe add "WotLK" in the name?

Otherwise, great job!