Mattaos

A couple things to consider with your linked spec.

• Animal Handler is a much greater benefit to a tanking pet than where ever else you have those 2 points allocated.
• 3/3 Careful is a major AP boost, thus being a major AP boost for your pet.
• 2/2 BD is a must regardless of having GFTT or not. The natural regen rate of focus (see above posts) is not enough to provide consistency in your pets attacks (less threat/aggro).
• 3/3 Focused Aim would be fine if you are gearing yourself with hardly any hit, otherwise it is a waste of points in the early 70s

.

The Gorilla is just one (if not "the") best tanking pets available currently. Any pet has the ability to hold aggro, but not all pets hold as good as others or have the ability to withstand incoming damage. Vanity-type pets and preference for the cool skins is OK, but if you are truly looking for effectiveness in your leveling...I would look to use a Gorilla or Bear right away.

 

Morwakh

I'm trying to calculate the point where haste in comparison to Agi gets the better attribute, now im asking myself whether haste has an effect on the steady shot !
Can anybody tell (link) ?

 

Saladin

It's true that the new focus costs of pet specials provide an "auto-prioritization" system for our pets, but it's just that--prioritization, not lockout. So theoretically the way it should behave is as follows:

Your pet has 20 focus and special is off cooldown -> Use Special
Your pet has 20 focus and special is on cooldown -> Do nothing
Your pet has 25 focus and special is on cooldown -> Use focus dump

What this means is that Bite should be firing off in the interim time between MB cooldowns, provided your pet is getting at least 25 focus during that time period. If for some reason MB is locking it out when MB is waiting on the cooldown, that could be a pretty significant DPS loss.

 

Frchorknabe

Thanks, your explanation re: SC kinda mirrored what I was thinking but wasn't sure about this.

Now sorry if I seem hung up about this, but since you were writing:

My wasp currently gets a spell bonus of 290, and my cat 55.3 dps bonus.

This means that Sting should go off for 325/6 ~ 54 dps and Rake for

69.3 one time + ... wait, is the periodic effect increased by 55.3 per second? Because then I get it that the AP-increase alone tops already the spell bonus effect, otherwise, if it is per tick, we look at 69.3 + 3 * 55.3 = 235.2 / 10 = 23.5 which is vastly inferior to Sting. I get the argument about potential resistances, tho.

 

Aern

I don't really think you can consider an ability with a 10(7) second cd to be a focus dump. Something that can burn focus every CD is a focus dump. Not really important but probably important to keep our terms straight.

As for the priority discussion, i believe when blizz posted about the pet special cost changes, they said one of the reason for the change was to fix the ai priority problem that pets were having using a focus dump instead of the family special if they were both off CD.

As for the wasp/cat argument, i tested out both on beta and on live and I've seen higher dps from the cat than the wasp. Don't really need theory numbers to make that decision. One thing I would say though is that pet spell damage isn't affecting some specials you would expect it to, or atleast its supplemented by pet AP. While I was running some AotB tests against AotH I observed a pet spell dmg decrease and a pet AP increase when i changed from Hawk to Beast. This happened in both cases with my gorilla and my scorpid, and in all the tests I saw a rather large dps increase for both scorpid poison and thunderstomp. Now this must be because both abilities are modified by pet AP, and I would atleast expect the gorilla's thunderstomp to be affected by spell dmg since its magical now. Point I'm trying to make is we might need to check to see what pet spells are using spell dmg, if any, to decide if its even a stat worth considering when we think about pet dps.

 

Saladin

Two gorilla-centric observations/questions that have occured to me while aoe-powerleveling alts through Scholo:

1) I have never specced Invigoration, but will for LK. If we time our Cobra Strikes with Thunderstomp so it crits 5 mobs, does that count as 5 crits (i.e., 5% mana back)?

2) With the change of TS to magical now, the only boost to it is Hunter's AP--the gorilla's AP has nothing to do with it, right? That means that Aspect of the Hawk would boost Thunderstomp more than Aspect of the Beast, in that case.

Any thoughts on this?

 

TrevvyTrev

It was always magical, it just used the wrong coefficient. It scales with pet spellpower, which scales with pet AP, so the gorilla's AP still is a factor.

 

Rosamonde

Yes, you are right, of course. I only meant that Monstrous Bite seemed to be *acting* like a focus dump for me last night.

In any case, I am home now and tried a few more tests.
[Note: MB vs Bite mystery solved! The Bite icon will display a quick GCD sweep if I click it manually, but when it is on autocast, it shows no reaction when it triggers. Claw does the same thing, though whether this is working as intended or not, I can't say. The combat log shows that Bite and Claw are working properly, but you can't tell by looking at the icon, for whatever reason.]

My original point, however, was that the timing from having 1/3 Longevity (with a 9 sec cooldown for Monstrous Bite) worked out fairly well to keep the MB buff up nearly continuously, and that still stands.

Results:
Recount does not provide a way to measure the time that the Monstrous Strength buff was active, unfortunately.
In the first test I let Tyrone attack the dummy for over 10 minutes, while watching the MB icon on the pet bar closely and using the in-game stopwatch to measure any time MB was available and not being used. Based on my observation, MB was never "lit up" for more than a second; most times it triggered immediately as soon as the cooldown was up.

On a second 10 min test, I watched for the Monstrous Strength buff to appear on my pet rather than looking at the MB icon. I noticed that about every 2 1/2 minutes or so, the timing would get out of sync and the buff would fall off for a period of about 3-4 seconds before starting to stack again. Once the buff was off for 12 seconds, I think as the result of several parries in a row rather than an extended lack of focus. The dummy parried Monstrous Bite 4 times and dodged it once during the test, so all the gaps could have been caused by a parry or dodge.

I did some more testing specifically on Rake as well. In a 10 minute test, Recount showed that the Rake DoT was up for 540 of 610 seconds of combat, or about 88%. The Rake DoT cannot be dodged, obviously, but the Rake attack was dodged twice, which would keep the DoT from being applied.

In conclusion, 2/2 Bestial Discipline looks to provide enough focus to keep Monstrous Strength and Rake up *most* of the time against a lvl 70 non-elite without Go for the Throat, at least in a controlled situation. I also feel that reducing dodges and parries from the enemy might help as much as increasing focus regeneration. I have 2/2 Animal Handler, but I do not know of any other way to increase a pet's expertise.

I am interested in the Aspect of the Hawk vs Aspect of the Beast discussion as well, but I am tired of testing for tonight!

 

Osse

Each crit procs invigoration.

Also, it seems that gorilla bybasses cat in dps when you're attacking three or more mobs. However.. that's on dummies so gorillas have the advantage of doing direct damage so rake won't work as well when leveling.

 

Sevani

Hey hunter community. So after four years of playing a hybrid healer, I have decided to switch to a pure dps class in the hunter. Now with that being said, Ive been gearing him for Wrath and have been doing BT/Hyjal, ZA's etc...With that being said, I always look to min/max and push optimal numbers as either heals or DPS.

With all that being said, I did extensive pet testing between my cat and scorpid after the nerfs on Tuesday. And the scorpid was the clear winner by about 50 dps each test. But then, when I went to BT and a ZA clear after doing said research, I found that my scorpid's poison wasn't being applied to the mob. There was a marks hunter in the raid and 10 man with a scorpid too, and we determined that his scorpids poison was over writing mine. I didnt notice any other topics like this in this thread, and I figured this would be the best place to post this as my hunter is BM and I'm still a major advocate for it.

Any thoughts about this? Perhaps its a bug? I asked some rogues in my guild and they told me all their poisons applied. And no, the debuff counter wasn't at max in BT. This is kinda disconcerting especially come wrath, if pet abilities overshadow other pet abilities and nerfs dps. Any input would be appreciated.

 

Mattaos

I would think (without any hard evidence to support it) that with the new raid-wide buff mechanics that similar to exact same buffs are overwritten with the more powerful option. In this case (assuming I am correct), the MM hunter's scorpid poison would win since he is contributing a higher AP value to the pet thus boosting its poison higher than your pet?

 

Sevani

Yeah thats what we were thinking. His AP being more then mine was making his poison apply over mine. This is kind of bogus though if you think about it. If this were the case, rogues should be penalized in the same way scorpids are right? For instance, one rogue will undoubtedly have more AP then the next. This would make you think that his poisons would reign supreme.

Would this be the same scenario for rake for cats? Or any DoT that a pet apples for that matter?

 

slashy

According to the current version of the spreadsheet, Scorpid would be a 500+ dps update over Cat as 50/11/0. Can anyone explain the reason of such a non sense result? especially since I have been making similar dps with both since patch

 

Pyros

Ok so I searched through the thread for info about the worm, but didn't find much. My situation is a bit different than other people, as I plan to level my hunter in a triple box setup, and the pet will be fully for damage, since my DK will be tanking. I'm wondering if my assumption of the worm, due to his big armor debuff, would be a better choice for DPS than say scorpids or tigers. Most discussions seem to focus on raiding situations with full sunders/expose, but assuming the mobs aren't debuffed, wouldn't that make Acid Spit the best pet ability? Another solution would be a pet that can AE, but I'm not too sure which can actually AE. I think I remember reading they "nerfed" the dragonhawk to not AE anymore, so is there still an AE based pet, other than the Gorilla which from what I understand actually generates a lot of threat while AEing.

For sake of completion, the triple box setup would be unholy DK mostly AEing when possible, a holydin and a BM hunter. I'm wondering about the best pet I could use for leveling, I'm pretty sure I'll end up using an AP debuff pet for dungeons/elite quests anyway, since DKs can't do that and it should be pretty useful.

Edit: Thinking about it, I probably need an alternative for the first few levels, first worms are in like dragonblight iirc. I guess I'll take suggestions on that too ^^.

 

Saladin

Well, worms are tenacity pets, so your talents are going to put you at a disadvantage for "pure DPS." If you're really se on getting an armor debuff, then I would instead choose a Wasp, which is a Ferocity DPS pet with a similar armor-reducing attack. It doesn't reduce armor as much as the worm, but from the DPS talents that Ferocity's get like Spider's Bite, Rabid, and Call of the Wild, you'll find your wasp is definitely outdoing your worm's wasted tanking talents.

Of course, once again, that's considering that you're certain you want the ArP buff. I'll admit to being a Death Knight noob, but aren't you doing a sizeable amount of non-physical (Shadow/Frost) damage as a DK? I would only see an armor reduction benefit as a real necessity if you were triple boxing a Hunter, Prot Warrior, and Rogue or something. When you consider the ungodly levels of DPS that scatpids and even devilsaurs are doing, DK tanks just don't seem to be the class that would warrant sacrificing that DPS for a minor amount of ArP.

ESPECIALLY since you're talking about leveling. Are any of the mobs you'll be questing on going to survive long enough to even get 3 stacks of Acid Spit up on them?

EDIT: On the gorilla subject, I wouldn't recommend using one to level unless you plan to go the Gorilladin route and aoe grind 5+ mobs at a time, for the same reasons as not using a worm (since it's a Tenacity pet and you're planning to use a separate tank). If you are looking for an AOE solution that wouldn't pull aggro off your DK, you could consider the Sporebat or Bear. I would rate both of those choices as second rate to almost any ferocity pet, however.

 

Keffer

Long time reader first time poster.
I was raiding ZA with another hunter from my guild with two scorpids. We noticed only one scorpid poison was being applied. I was wondering if anybody else had this problem. I was pulling number 1s in BT with the other hunter using a cat but when get got a scorpid I was lower in ZA and the other guy was topping me untill I got the first poison application.

I wonder if cats are the same with rake's bleed. My guild sometimes runs with multiple hunters so we need to cordinate our pets for Naxx.

 

Sevani

This question was covered about 5 posts up, just fyi.

 

Keffer

Still waiting for cats though. Does the bleed mechanic provide enough dps that duplicate hunters would lose substantial dps for not overlapping?(I don't use a cat but I was seeing 100' tick when I use one) I already know this is the case for scorpids. What should other hunters should use outside of cats/scorpids to not cause this problem. I'm guessing a wasp.

 

Mikari

There's worms in Silithus.

I never noticed there being a problem with Rake not being applied from multiple cats, I did Naxx raids on beta with multiple Hunters using cats and saw multiple Rake debuffs up on the boss.

e.g

Wow Web Stats

and

Wow Web Stats

both pets are getting a similar percentage of DPS from Rake which I wouldn't expect to see if only 1 Rake was being kept up.

 

Hunterlin

This is behaviour of scorpid poison since long time ago. This way scorpid poison did work whole tbc, scorpids with same rank poison did applied just one stack for both scorpids. Same thing is with rogues and poisons, 2 equal poisons from 2 rogues does not stack(if this is changed now, then correct).
This is not a problem with cats, bleeds are separate for each, and 2 cats will apply 2 bleed debuffs.

 

Keffer

Good to know. Won't have to bother telling my guildies what to get. Hopefully I won't have one hard pressed to use a scorpid along side me.

 

Jiminimonka

I have searched through this post, but was unable to find any information. Has anyone worked out what the Hit Cap is for hunters at level 80?

Another question is does Ferocious Inspiration now stack raid wide or do you only get the benefit of one now? From my own obersvations it seems like they don't stack, just wanted to see if anyone can confirm this.

Also, putting !Auto Shot back in your macros works fine, you get Auto Shot firing up at the same times as Steady Shot, so you just need to press the SS Macro and they start up together, otherwise you are waiting for Steady Shot to fire before Auto Shot kicks in.

 

Elimbras

This looks like strange for me, since all other "damage" debuff are obviously cumulating (otherway locks and sp would be rightfully whinning).
Don't know why they don't allow damage poisons to stack also.

The situation is obviously different for debuffs that don't produce dps directly, but help dps of other attacks.

This may be worth reporting

 

Zeuxis

Heh, it's not non-sense, it's absolutely correct. My scorp pulled down well over 1400 dps on some fights in sunwell last night, with scorpid ticks over 2300 at some points. And this is *after* scorpid poison was reduced in 3.0.3. The scorpid is an absolute monster on any single target it can maintain a stack on. I frankly prefer a cat for trash/adds/mobile fights, but the scorp is the undisputed ruler of tank and spank.

Hell, my scorpid was given an unofficial guild membership after being the 7th place DPS'er on Kiljaeden...

 

Belzi.ET

Has nothing to do with Hunter, but:
I guess the main difference between Warlock-DoTs and Rogue-Poisons is the ability to stack (or not).
Rake is not able to stack, Scorpid Poison on the other side does.


Now about BM.
For a long time it was almost a no-brainer to go 50/21/0 to get readiness. This pushed us into the situation to only have 9 talent-points for the last 3 talents (Longevity, Cobra Strikes and Kindred Spirits).
With glyph I would always prefer going 3/3 Longevity, just to make the CDs fit better (especially in a BM-Readiness-build).
So, in fact, I would only have 6 talent points to spend in CS an KS.

There are some factors which would make 3/3 CS getting better and better:
- Our Crit-chance. The higher our crit, the more reliable is the uptime of CS.
- AP. The more AP for us, the more AP for our pet (and pet-AP itself). Since pet-specials scale better than pet-autoattack the pet auto:special ratio will get more and more to the special-site.
- Pet-Specials itself. A direct-damage ability or DoT. CS obviously prefers former. (There are hunters which choose their pet by style but still will do max-possible dps with their style-pet )


Is it possible that there is a breakpoint where 3/3 CS (and only 3/5 KS) is preferable over 1/3 CS and 5/5 KS?
Always with a 50/21/0 readiness-build.


Edit:
Forgot to attach my 2 test-runs on Lvl70 target-dummies.
- Both runs were about 10 minutes, I stayed in AotV to keep steady-spam up.
- No Debuffs were on the dummies (not even HM).
- Everything with proc was placed in the bags => only proc was CS).
- Rabid was on autocast. BW and KC were not used
- My stats: 2199 AP, 29.46% Crit, 150 Hit
- Pet stats (a cat): 847 AP

WWS - 3/3 Longevity, 1/3 CS, 5/5 KS - with Rake (961 DPS)
WWS - 3/3 Longevity, 3/3 CS, 3/5 KS - with Rake (943 DPS)