First thanks to everyone in the hunter community who post useful info for us hunters.
I rarely post but read often so I've been closely following every thread in the hunter forums for some time. I realize there is no perfect spec and some spec's outshine others on different encounters.
All the information is useful but a bit confusing at times so please bare with me as I ask the following questions.
I've been using the 52/11/5 spec with a scorpid with excellent results however I was reading this thread today it sounded like if I am using a scorpid 3 points in cobra strikes is a waste bc most of their damage comes from a sting which cant crit.
If this is correct, I am considering going back to 50/21 with 3 points in Longevity and 1 in cobra strikes (standard 50/21). With this being said what are the 3 best glyph's to use because it sounded like BW glyph is not as good as Hawk Glyph when you have 3 points in Longevity. Did I read this correctly?
My current glyphs are BW, Steady and Serp.
Thanks in advance for replies
Thanks for all the awesome discussion. I stumbled upon a 50/21 build kinda on my own, but this topic has me thinking of how to tweak it. Only real question I have concerning the build is that:
I have 3/3 Focused Aim but am now able to free up one point (over hit cap) in the MM tree. Is it better to put it into Imp Stings or Efficiency? I have the SS Glyph and keep serpent up.
Thanks for all the awesome discussion. I stumbled upon a 50/21 build kinda on my own, but this topic has me thinking of how to tweak it. Only real question I have concerning the build is that:
I have 3/3 Focused Aim but am now able to free up one point (over hit cap) in the MM tree. Is it better to put it into Imp Stings or Efficiency? I have the SS Glyph and keep serpent up.
You might hear different opinions about this, but I will give you my reasoning for opting to put points in Imp Stings over Efficiency. 1/5 Effic gives us only a 2% reduction to the mana cost of shots, which for a BM hunter is basically a lot of Steady Shots.
10500 mana pool = 525 mana per Steady
2% reduction will save roughly 11 mana per shot.
Hypothetically, if we shot 100 Steady Shots during an encounter we saved our selves 1100 mana.
1/3 Improved Stings gives us a 10% damage boost.
Using the same 100 Steady Shot example we should apply Serpent Sting 10 times during the same fight duration. 10 stings would be about 13650 mana used over the entire fight, but the increase from the 10% would equal to basically the damage of another entire sting duration for free.
Say a Serpent Sting duration yields 1500 damage. 10*1500 = 15000*1.10 = 16500 damage (13650 mana expense) vs. 10*1500 = 15000 (12550 mana expense). Still exhausting about the same amount of mana, but giving up 1500 extra damage.
This is really rough math, but this is the justification I came up with for myself. Efficiency is a bigger benefit when we can put 4 or 5 points into it, but 2% mana reduction is minimal and easily matched with maybe 2-3 shots in AotV.
Well generally for a readiness build 2 points in Rapid Killing would be a larger DPS gain then 2/5 Efficiency because the Rapid Fire cooldown is 3 minutes along with Readiness which means you can use Rapid Fire then Readiness every 3 minutes instead of having Readiness up and RF still with 2 minutes left.
That being said your not hit capped which means that you need one point in Focused Aim until you can reach it without it as that provides a much bigger DPS gain then 2/2 Rapid Killing uncapped (about ~13DPS roughly). So assuming you take one point out of Focused Aim because it's not needed in there as 1 point with your hit rating is more than sufficient you still have another point to spend. Now because readiness is a 3 minute cooldown chances are your probably going to use it everytime it's up thus resetting the cooldown of Rapid Fire so putting 1 point in Rapid Killing is useless because you can't use it, only with 2 points in it does it become an actual DPS gain in a Readiness build.
So to summarise - yes 2/2 Rapid Killing is a bigger DPS gain over efficiency however thats assuming that you are actually hitcapped so until your actually hitcapped your better off putting that extra point into Efficiency: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
As far as your other problems go you need to check things like your raid composition. Upon hitting 80 i threw my level 70 BT/Sunwell gear into the spreadsheet and checked how much DPS i gained from buffs alone - it was about 2.6-2.7k DPS and this is with level 70 gear. Chances are your not getting the right buffs like totems/10%ap/replenishment etc. The issue generally is a guild one - for instance my last guild at 70 stacked their raids in favour of hunters and i topped the charts by a mile everytime, when i joined my current guild which is more stacked in favour of casters with people that i consider a tad under the skill level of my previous guild i generally hover around top 5 but i don't top it - unless our resident enchancement (yes i said enchancement) shaman logs online so i understand why you might be wondering why somethings wrong when really it's not you, it's just your raid makeup.
Really though i recommend atleast trying to use the spreadsheet. It might look intimidating at a glance but it's pretty easy to figure out and i think theres a guide somewhere on how to use it if your unfamiliar with them. Hopefully this helps.
Thanks a bunch, appreciate your help! You've made it really easy to understand I'll give the DPS spreadsheet another look through.
10500 mana pool = 525 mana per Steady
2% reduction will save roughly 11 mana per shot.
Hypothetically, if we shot 100 Steady Shots during an encounter we saved our selves 1100 mana.
Sorry I may have missed something but Mana cost of spells doesn't work like that, its based off base(the mana your class has naked) mana not your total mana. Rank 4 Steady shot is 252 mana @ 80 and untalented.
And after having seen your various comments, I'm wondering if this spec isnt more interesting dps wise compared to the other ones out there. Right now it's a toss up for me in between putting 2 points in invig or going to get imp stings. The reason for that is that we usually run a ret pal and an sp and I never see my mana go under 80 % on any fight. It would seem to me that imp tracking not affecting your pet is therefore kind of a minimal dps increase compared to imp stings which is constantly used in your basic rotation.
I havent run this through the dps spreadsheet becasue I cant get it to work for me right now but any opinion would be welcome as I find myself trying to find the optimal dps spec right now and the last few points are kind of doing my head in
I would link you my gear but the armory is down again (if it's up for you guys it's stryffe on Twillight's hamer)
Sorry I may have missed something but Mana cost of spells doesn't work like that, its based off base(the mana your class has naked) mana not your total mana. Rank 4 Steady shot is 252 mana @ 80 and untalented.
Nope. You didn't miss anything, I skipped right over the fact that even the tooltip states 5% of Base Mana in my haste to type out that post. Given my error in calculating the mana saved from 1/5 Efficiency the fact is even more re-enforced to go in the direction of Imp Stings. Thank you Mustache for emphasizing my point by emphasizing my mistake.
And after having seen your various comments, I'm wondering if this spec isnt more interesting dps wise compared to the other ones out there. Right now it's a toss up for me in between putting 2 points in invig or going to get imp stings. The reason for that is that we usually run a ret pal and an sp and I never see my mana go under 80 % on any fight. It would seem to me that imp tracking not affecting your pet is therefore kind of a minimal dps increase compared to imp stings which is constantly used in your basic rotation.
I havent run this through the dps spreadsheet becasue I cant get it to work for me right now but any opinion would be welcome as I find myself trying to find the optimal dps spec right now and the last few points are kind of doing my head in
I would link you my gear but the armory is down again (if it's up for you guys it's stryffe on Twillight's hamer)
A full 5/5 Imp Tracking gives you a static 5% damage increase for all your shot (except Stings). This is not applied to your pet, but, neither is Imp Stings so that point is moot. Imp Stings is in no way a DPS increase over Imp Tracking. You do not gain any DPS advantage taking the 51 point BM talent either, since a Cat and Scorpid both are top DPS performers.
There is an abundance of information outlining the basic DPS talents and builds currently being used thru out the various WotLK related hunter threads. There really is no reason to re-invent the wheel.
Not trying to reinvent the wheel
Thx for the clearup in any case. I´ll get the cat out and give it a go.
Btw just out of curiosity I went back through the info, I remember a nerf for cats being stated in an incoming patch. Has said nerf already happened or is it still inc
Since theres a chance that we merely need 8% hit now instead of 9% (and Pet not profiting from FA) there very little use of FA.
Thus Mattaos, I've took your talent and modified it a bit: Here
Whats your opinion in it? Not sure if the last point is better spend in 2/2 GftT since I've the feeling that even with 25%< crit the pet is starving on Focus occasionally.
I read that with current 25-man buffs pets are speed caped without cobra reflexes at 1.07 so taking this pet talent would be a decrease in dps right.
Also another hunter in my guild mentioned call of the wild not being beneficial due to another buff which won't stack with it due to the change to how raid buff stacking works is this also true or would it still be a dps upgrade?
Hey guys, my first post on here also, just switched from 54/17/0 to this 50/21 spec.
I have changed the Glyphs i had from Rapid fire, Bestial Wrath and Hawk to Steady Shot, Serpent Sting and Hawk and i'm currently running with a cat. The points in FA are there because im only at 4.5% hit at the moment, these will change to improved stings as time goes by.
How are other hunters using this kind of build finding mana effiency, i did some tests on target dummies and after both TBW's i was mana'd out (10,181mana unbuffed). Is the serpent sting + glyph's bonus enough to warrant using viper a lot more than you usually would? or is invigoration a key talent that i'm missing, i've never tested it before.
For tonight's Patchwerk I decided to try a readiness/scorpid build with Aspect of the Beast up for the duration of the fight. I maximized everything I could control, Saronite arrows, flask/food. I also switched from Sting/Steady glyphs to Hunter's Mark/Aspect of the Beast, with my third glyph obviously Bestial Wrath. As for variables inherent to the encounter, the instance was beginning to suffer from latency, so numbers might be slightly lower than they should, and my crit rate for both steady and auto ended up being ~10% lower than they should have.
Anyway, here's some actual numbers for you people who want to theorycraft Hawk vs. Beast.
We were forced to give up after only three bosses due to severe latency, so I'm sorry that's all I can offer for now. Next week for Patchwerk I plan to switch glyphs to Sting/Steady to see if there is a noticeable difference either way.
Since theres a chance that we merely need 8% hit now instead of 9% (and Pet not profiting from FA) there very little use of FA.
Thus Mattaos, I've took your talent and modified it a bit: Here
Whats your opinion in it? Not sure if the last point is better spend in 2/2 GftT since I've the feeling that even with 25%< crit the pet is starving on Focus occasionally.
I would not say Focused Aim is a worthless talent by any stretch. If a hunter does not have the gear to achieve 8% hit via gear then FA is going to be the filler. The lower hit cap merely gives us more options in the Marks tree once hit can be established thru upgrades. Also, I would not recommend solely gearing for hit in spite of crit or ap on an obvious upgrade piece that does not have any hit. If I come across an upgrade item that is sporty a high amount of agility, crit and AP I am swapping out my boots that have hit. Good news is there are plenty of strong pieces from Naxx 10/25 with hit though.
I will make a note on the front page regarding the hit cap discovery.
I would definitely go 2/2 GFTT if your crit chance is under 25%, but keep in mind that depending on your raid make up buffs like LotP will push your crit up to (or above) 30%.
How are other hunters using this kind of build finding mana effiency, i did some tests on target dummies and after both TBW's i was mana'd out (10,181mana unbuffed). Is the serpent sting + glyph's bonus enough to warrant using viper a lot more than you usually would? or is invigoration a key talent that i'm missing, i've never tested it before.
I have 0 points in mana restoration of efficiency talents and the only fight in Naxx where I have to use viper is Noth when I'm lazy and just spam volley on the spawns. Taking Invigoration or Efficiency right now is a waste of points.
For tonight's Patchwerk I decided to try a readiness/scorpid build with Aspect of the Beast up for the duration of the fight. I maximized everything I could control, Saronite arrows, flask/food. I also switched from Sting/Steady glyphs to Hunter's Mark/Aspect of the Beast, with my third glyph obviously Bestial Wrath. As for variables inherent to the encounter, the instance was beginning to suffer from latency, so numbers might be slightly lower than they should, and my crit rate for both steady and auto ended up being ~10% lower than they should have.
Anyway, here's some actual numbers for you people who want to theorycraft Hawk vs. Beast.
We were forced to give up after only three bosses due to severe latency, so I'm sorry that's all I can offer for now. Next week for Patchwerk I plan to switch glyphs to Sting/Steady to see if there is a noticeable difference either way.
Patchwerk tonight with a 50/21/0 build, but didn't go all out on consumables. I was using Mammoth Cutters, a Flask of Relentless Assault, and the cheap 60 AP food. This was with AotH + Glyphs of BW/Steady/Hawk.
My guess is Beast, aspect and glyph, actually brought your DPS down. I did the same test with the Beast Glyph last week and it was a huge disappointment.
Are hunters that use the steady shot/serpent sting glyphs adding a new line to the general steady shot macro that casts serpent sting whenever it can? If so, what this macro look like?
From what ive been seeing scorpids are doing higher dps than cats, is there still something bugged or what?
Scorpid Sting stacks are still doing heaps of damage. There has been a fix, but it was still more dps after that. There may be an additional nerf ofcourse, it wouldn't surprise me at least. For the moment Im walking with a Scorpid pet.
I can't login currently, so can not check, but I really think that scorpid spell damage scales on the hunter RAp.
As almost 50% of its damages come from the poison, I don't see the reason to go for aspect of the beast, at least when BW is off, but probably even for the whole fight.
I'm currently using a cat (and leveling my scorpid) and I'm switching to beast during BW only, staying in DragonHawk out of BW.
I can't login currently, so can not check, but I really think that scorpid spell damage scales on the hunter RAp.
As almost 50% of its damages come from the poison, I don't see the reason to go for aspect of the beast, at least when BW is off, but probably even for the whole fight.
I'm currently using a cat (and leveling my scorpid) and I'm switching to beast during BW only, staying in DragonHawk out of BW.
When I toggle Beast, my scorpid's AP goes up, but its spell damage goes down. Nevertheless, the scorpid does more damage with Scorpid Poison under Beast.
Nearly every build I see puts 2 points into Improved Revive Pet over 2 additional points in Endurance Training.
When it comes to maxing a build for raiding and boss fights in particular, of course neither contributes directly to DPS. It is really a question of survivability and the trade-off of a talent that can help keep hunter+pet alive VS. one that brings the pet back quicker if things go pear shaped.
Are people really seeing their pets go down that often? I'm sure this was a detailed discussion that predates my participation in the forums - but similar to the Improved Mend pet vs Spirit Bond discussion, isn't 4% pet health and 2% player health generally more useful? Boiling this down further: for pure raiding doesn't the skill that keeps everyone alive a _bit_ longer better than one that improves a bad experience?
in the case of two viable options I usually see both represented in builds, but not here, so hence the question.
Nearly every build I see puts 2 points into Improved Revive Pet over 2 additional points in Endurance Training.
When it comes to maxing a build for raiding and boss fights in particular, of course neither contributes directly to DPS. It is really a question of survivability and the trade-off of a talent that can help keep hunter+pet alive VS. one that brings the pet back quicker if things go pear shaped.
Are people really seeing their pets go down that often? I'm sure this was a detailed discussion that predates my participation in the forums - but similar to the Improved Mend pet vs Spirit Bond discussion, isn't 4% pet health and 2% player health generally more useful? Boiling this down further: for pure raiding doesn't the skill that keeps everyone alive a _bit_ longer better than one that improves a bad experience?
in the case of two viable options I usually see both represented in builds, but not here, so hence the question.
Most often, in my experience, pets don't survive with 200-300 hp from something. The problem comes in when if you don't have improved revive pet it is basically not even reasonable to consider resurrecting the thing. If you're running a scorpid this is pretty bad news. You could likely get away with it using a ferocity pet though if you get Heart of the Phoenix.
In most cases 4% pet health won't keep you pet alive if it would die without. And yes there are still a lot of pet unfriendly fights, where deaths are not completely avoidable, even if you put effort into your micromanagement. Generally damage dealing debuffs are huge petkillers, since the damage coming from those is not mitigated by avoidance at all and since pets are neither a high priority on healing nor dispells, well they simply die on occasion. Since having a dead pet is disastrous to BM hunter dps, having imp revive is pretty much mandatory in such cases.
12/02/08, 2:06 PM
I'll give the DPS spreadsheet another look through.
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