I'm sorry, but what? With standard raid buffs your serpent sting should do more damage per GCD than steady shot. Even before an extra tick from serpent sting glyph.
Even if you didn't have the steady shot glyph it would still be worth using unless mana was a more serious concern than it is for me.
5 ticks of serpent sting are 2500 damage for me, a raid buffed steady is nearly 2k with crits going close to 5k. It's only worth it with the glyph.
Nice for you, this is what it looks like for me.
avg serpent tick 738 damage.
That's 3690 damage over the duration.
My average steady hit is 1757
My average steady crit is 4336
My crit rate from the parse Im using is 29%
(1757*0.71)+(4336*0.29) = 2504.91
So my average steady is about 2505, my average serpent is about 3690. Definately not a waste.
Using numbers from this patchwerk kill: Wow Web Stats
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet when I was reading through (I very well may have missed it, if so I do apologize) was if a serpent sting was hunter dependent.
Last I read the Imp Steady shot glyph I didn't see any mention saying it had to be your sting on the target to get the improvement. So would it be worth only one person getting imp stings and using it in their rotation, while other people taking something else and not using it at all? Or is it indeed hunter dependent?
I tested this 2 weeks ago on the dummies in IF using a Fine Light Crossbow - when another hunter in the group put up serpent my steadies were hitting for exactly the same as if there was no serpent on the target. When I put up the serpent, my steadies were hitting for 10% more.
That question (does it need to be your own sting) has been asked & answered elsewhere in this thread, among other places. Empiric testing says yes, it must be your own sting to gain the glyph's benefit.
Last edited by Iru : 12/05/08 at 1:04 AM.
Reason: typos
I am BM since TBC. In TBC i gather everything that could make my dps go up, around 25% crit 7% hit some haste and some ArP. And i was everytime on the top 3 DPS and the first Hunter.
Now in LK with the new Talents it seams for me that (with 3/3 CS and 2/2 Invigoration) + crit is the most important stat for a BM. Crit scale to your pet (CS) and so u get more mana and dps longer befor switch to viper.
Maybe this was already discused earlier in this thread, but ...
What u think is most important stats as BM with 3/3 CS and 2/2 Invi ?
I tested this 2 weeks ago on the dummies in IF using a Fine Light Crossbow - when another hunter in the group put up serpent my steadies were hitting for exactly the same as if there was no serpent on the target. When I put up the serpent, my steadies were hitting for 10% more.
If so then if theres 2 hunters per raid and both try to apply Serpent Sting on target?
Stings the target, causing [RAP * 0.2 + 1210] Nature damage over 15 sec. Only one Sting per Hunter can be active on any one target.
If i use Serpent Sting then it will rewrite other hunter serpent sting and it will waste other hunter mana that way and my mana too if other hunter use Serpent Sting
Last edited by Huntalicious : 12/05/08 at 4:59 AM.
It appears from my own and others WWS parses, that even a hit capped hunter loses dps through pet misses. I was just wondering if it might be worth getting > 9% hit to eliminate this? (All my hit rating is from gear, I havent specced into +hit).
It appears from my own and others WWS parses, that even a hit capped hunter loses dps through pet misses. I was just wondering if it might be worth getting > 9% hit to eliminate this? (All my hit rating is from gear, I havent specced into +hit).
Exactly, what kind of "misses" ? WWS displays dodges and parries as "misses" by default. What do you get if you tick the right checkboxes in the columns menu ? Most of the WWS reports i've seen from hit-capped hunters don't have any "real" misses.
The only way we have atm is to partially negate dodges / parries is through animal handler.
I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed and i fail at finding it.
Q: Although i tamed the spirit beast purely for fun how does it compare with cat/devilsaur in terms of raid dps? The spreadsheet says its behind the devilsaur but ive heard from several sources that its incorrect. Anyone know for sure?
I would like to ask a few questions regarding the 50/21/0 spec, as i probably missed something, and i would clearly appreciate if anyone could help me with this situation
I noticed that many hunters have one talent point spent at Longevity, and my question according to my math would be : Why only one point instead of two ( or , why only one point instead of none at all )
According to my math, a hunter with 1/3 Longevity would have this :
0:00 - 0:20 - Bestial Wrath
0:20 - 0:40 - Readines/Bestial Wrath
1:50 - 2:10 - Bestial Wrath
3:20 - - - - - Both Bestial Wrath CD/Readines are ready , thus a hunter could use Readines whitout caring about the Bestial Wrath CD
While, a hunter with 2/3 Longevity would have this :
Now, why would peoples choose 1/3 instead of 2/3 ?
I also have a curiosity about Rapid Killing, as i have seen many hunters having 2/2 Rapid Killing, while i noticed ( maybe wrongfully ) that Readiness is up at the same time, thus the Rapid Killing wouldnt be needed
00:00 - 00:15 - Rapid Fire
00:20 - 00:35 - Readines >> Rapid Fire/Bestial Wrath ( 0:20 because of GCD/18sec of BW/maybe one sec MS )
03:20 - - - - - - Both Readines and Rapid Fire CD´s are ready , thus a hunter wouldnt need the Rapid Killing for the Rapid Fire to be ready at 03:20
Well, what am i missing here ? ... because i have a feeling that i do that
PS : Ignore my talent build as im missing Cobra Strikes over Invigoration because - unfortunately - , we never have JoW at raids ( lazy pallys ) , and im having a massive fight with the mana efficiency
I would say that, it really depends on the length of the fight.
According to your table if you take a 15 minute fight then 3/3 gives you 16 BWs and 2/3 gives 15 BWs.
But what if you want to kill Patchwerk in 3 minutes? Then you get 4 BWs with 3/3 and 3 BWs with 2/3. If the length is 3 minutes and 40 seconds then 2/3 and 3/3 both give you 5 BWs in total.
On top of that you need to take pet special ability cooldown into consideration too (sheet suggests 3/3). I have not dug into details, but 3/3 gives about 50 more pet dps in 50/21 over 2/3. For 51/15/5 it was ~10 dps loss if 2/3 was taken.
Note: If 3/3 Longevity is picked, then it means 1/3 Cobra Strikes. For 2/3 Longevity 2/3 Cobra Strikes.
Last edited by Conn : 12/05/08 at 7:54 AM.
Reason: Missplace of comma.
2 points in longevity is actually quite a bit worse than 3 if you are using a cat, its even behind one point for pet dps due to how it effects rake.
I also wouldn't make any long term plans assuming scorpids will be the go to pet, they have been fixed twice in the past when they where bugged to do this kind of absurd dps.
avg serpent tick 738 damage.
That's 3690 damage over the duration.
My average steady hit is 1757
My average steady crit is 4336
My crit rate from the parse Im using is 29%
(1757*0.71)+(4336*0.29) = 2504.91
So my average steady is about 2505, my average serpent is about 3690. Definately not a waste.
Using numbers from this patchwerk kill: Wow Web Stats
Could I see your armory profile?
I don't think there is any question whether adding any form of additional damage to a fight is a waste. Before the advent of Glyphs Serpent Sting was never a consideration because it would interrupt the flow of a shot rotation and take up a valuable debuff slot on the target. The changes to Serpent Sting have improved it considerably and maybe worth using given the available debuff slot, assuming there is not a Glyph of Steady Shot being used. On the other hand, using the glyph makes Serpent Sting a mandatory shot to be worked in to a rotation.
You math above definitely proves that Serpent Sting is capable of generating some nice additional damage over the 15 sec duration. The comparison with Steady Shot is skewed though. Steady fires every 1.5 sec allowing 10 Steady Shots to land (assuming hit capped) before it is time to refresh the sting. It is safe to say that your avg. damage number for Steady Shot can be x10. 2505*10=25,050 Using your linked WWS parse your avg Steady Shot over 73 shots landed was more like 3539. So, I am not 100% sure if Serpent Sting is a logical choice for being included in a rotation if un-glyphed or not. Would Serpent Sting actually be given a second thought by the majority of us if there was not a Steady glyph available?
EDIT: Clarification
The point I am trying to determine is whether using Serpent Sting without a Glyph of Steady Shot is worth the debuff slot on a target that could be filled by something more powerful/beneficial. Using the avg damage from the linked parse and the damage done over time by a single Serpent Sting is small difference. I would think that Serpent Sting might be a worthy DoT if Glyph of Serpent Sting is used for that extra tick. But, why would any hunter not use the Steady Shot glyph?
If you are using a cat you should go with 1/3 longevity + bw glyph OR 3/3 longevity without the glyph. As it has been said, 2/3 longevity would impact rake.
Pros & cons of 1/3:
+ You can go with 3/3 cobrastrikes, which should be a great benefit for a cat.
- You loose a glyph slot
- all special abilities plus call of the wild will have their cooldowns increased by 20%
If you are raiding with a scorpid, it seems to be a bit more complicated. As seen in Osse's results, scorpid's claw gained a significant increase in critrating with 3/3 in cobra strikes. So I think the poison did not consume a bulk of the charges from cs.
Here again you would loose a glyph slot, BUT the 20% increase of the scorpid's cooldowns doesn't affect it as much as it did to the cat. No call of the wild, no rake, just claw gets impacted by that.
So I think it's not that easy to come to a clear decision since every specc has its benefit
The point I am trying to determine is whether using Serpent Sting without a Glyph of Steady Shot is worth the debuff slot on a target that could be filled by something more powerful/beneficial. Using the avg damage from the linked parse and the damage done over time by a single Serpent Sting is small difference. I would think that Serpent Sting might be a worthy DoT if Glyph of Serpent Sting is used for that extra tick. But, why would any hunter not use the Steady Shot glyph?
Whether it is worth the mana or GCD should always be a consideration, but the debuff slots should not. It appears that one of the changes in WotLK was to eliminate this kind of dilemma:
We changed how the game handles debuffs (ie negative state effects on targets) on creatures with Wrath of the Lich King. The old hard cap of 40 debuffs on a target no longer effectively exists. You can now apply way more debuffs to a target without them dropping off before their duration expires. The default WoW UI will not normally display all these debuffs, but they really are still there!
This seems to suggest that there are now enough slots so that people don't have to worry about their own effects pushing off other effects that might be more useful.
I have a question about the scorpid pet's damage - or more to the point, how is everyone getting their scorpids to hit above 3k dps on static fights?
Example of a random scorpid wws in this thread: 3008 dps scorpid
So I decided to test this pet out for myself, and brought a scorpid along to Instructor (no werk parse, sorry.) However, as you can see from this fight, it's only doing 2100 or so dps.
The results are baffling. Curse of elements was applied, all the usual buffs (might/kings/mark, etc.) were on both me and the pet. My pet's autoattack even matches the 3k dps scorpid's autoattack, so I doubt that either my pet or I were missing buffs. Even the spreadsheet agrees with the other guy's parse - my scorpid is *supposed* to do more than 3k dps.
And yet, the scorpid poison on my pet (and to a lesser degree, claw) was doing significantly less damage than the other pet's.
Here are the things that I've considered could be the cause:
I could've gotten another BW off, but I'm 1/3 longevity and I didn't bother popping bw for killing the adds in the last 20 seconds or so, but this should be minimal.
I had 1/2 gfft at the time (I have since seen the difference and changed back to 2/2), so perhaps my pet wasn't fed enough focus to keep a 5 stack up at all times.
I wasn't in aspect of the beast.
I'm missing the orc 5% pet damage racial.
However, none of those would make enough of a difference to increase my pet's dps by 1k, I would think. The spreadsheet puts my pet dps at 3092 in hawk, and even if the 5-stack fell off a few times (which I doubt), how does that explain the disparity in the max damage tick between the scorpids? I macro kill commands in sync with BW too as well.
I'd very much appreciate it if someone could shed some light on why this is happening. I'd hoped that the scorpid would be worth taking to raids if only for the high dps on stationary fights, but mediocre dps on movement fights and a sub-par dps even on tank and spanks are pretty convincing counterarguments.
Once upon a time there was no question what the best stat for any build Hunter was. It was Agility. If an item had a ton of Agility, then it was always the best choice.
New bonuses that tweak game mechanics make this a lot harder to balance now. So for raw raid DPS output for a BM dps Hunter, how do we balance it out?
Rule 1: Hit cap. Okay, that's obviously the first thing. After that? Not so easy because the numbers aren't so easy to crunch in your head anymore. Haste rating is very nice, especially when you get a lot of it. Armor Ignore is also incredibly nice, and similarly gets very very good when you stack a lot of it.
We all still feel the love for the old favorites: Agility, Crit, Attack Power. For those the best formula for deciding which piece of gear is better goes something like this.
1 Agility is worth 2.75 Attack Power.
1 Crit is worth about 2.5 Attack Power.
1 Agility is only slightly more valuable than 1 Crit. I'd say something like 1 to 1.1 or such. You could easily argue that 1 Crit is better than 1 Agility, but I do like the many things Agility improves, so I value it slightly higher.
But now, when confronted with a decision between a whole lotta +Haste Rating, what's a hunter to do? How does Haste rating stack up to the old and more familiar 3 stats? What about Armor Ignore? What about other stats that I may have forgotten?
12/04/08, 3:46 PM
Similar Threads
