Does anyone have a WWS for Patchwerk that's above 6147? Would be interesting to see what kind of setups people run with to get those kind of dps figures. We killed Patchwerk in 2 mins 38 seconds which is absolutely horrible compared to the top WWS's so I'm easily losing 200 dps compared to those due to our kill time. We also had no call of the wilds as the new hunter didn't respec his pet. I got slightly screwed by the auto shot RNG but I guess it's not so big. I guess if patch won't go live next week we might be close to two minute kill as the fourth rogue will be HAT and we'll go with 5 healers.

Wow Web Stats

Only log I found close was this. They had five cats and 25 second faster kill time though. :>

Did anyone check "cat hunters" gear, enchants or gems?

I have:

+965 AP
+152 haste
+4.43% pet hit
+1.43% hunter hit
+0.18% crit
+33 armor penetration rating
+13.2 weapon dps

He must have messed up something with his pet as it only did 2064 dps.
He either forgot to switch AotB to AotD after first two BW's or then he had no aspect for the rest of the fight.
He doesn't meet the requirements for meta gem (I just noticed it in armory)
He had glyph of serpent sting instead of AotH
He wasted one point in GftT instead of putting it in imp HM
He didn't use potion of speed
Greatness deck 300 agi proc vs meteorite whetstone 444 haste for 10 sec proc

Basically, it was his first raid as 50/21 spec and first raid in the guild. If you plug all the changes compared to me in a spreadsheet the result is 1506 dps lower.

On topic: I asked if someone has similar dps figures to link, not to discuss if scorpid is OP.

This is just more of the same old... remember taking camouflage off the table for reason X, and then giving rogues misdirect and totally ignoring that same reason X? Its tiresome.

Has everyone who was using the IAotH glyph over the SS glyph checked themselves against a new version of the DPS sheet? I believe a calculation was fixed that was vastly overrating the haste from the IAotH proc, which resulted in higher than expected numbers for that glyph: link. It never did make sense to me that the IAotH glyph would produce better results than the SS glyph, but let us know if it still does.

Osse

AotB under BW is better than AotD ? And Both for scorpid and cat or may be just for scorpid ?

I hope it has not been asked before, because I did not read this thread, I started reading two others entirely and will read this one tonight, but I still felt this might be the better thread to ask.

I'm coming back to theorycrafting (and playing) after a pause of 1 1/2 year, so be easy on me, please

I have 2 questions, which come up while planning my talents. The cobra strikes talent says your next 2 pet specials will have an x chance to crit (after your own crit). Now does this mean the next two "normally non-crit" specials will crit, or simply the next two, no matter what. Because 3 talent points are a lot, if it would mean that these next 2 crits will be wasted if the pet was going to crit one or even both of them anyway.

The other question would be about these glyphs. The glyph of serpent sting lets SS tick for 6 seconds longer. I read the combined use with the steady shot glyph should make sense to get 2-3 more steadies in the duration of the serpent sting for added steady damage.
But the glyph description does not say that the added 6 seconds also add damage, just that the duration is longer. If thats the case, wouldnt you lose dps because you could always get the 10% with the steady glyph by properly refreshing the 15 sec sting, while making the sting just tick longer without upping the damage would just waste you 6 seconds in which you could reapply the 15sec sting for the same damage?
I guess the answer is easy and the 6 seconds also add the appropriate damage, I just couldnt find the info.

Edit: My avatar pic seems pretty out of date now

Thanks. On what base is the damage added to the sting? Does it just add two more ticks with the same damage as the normal 5 ticks? Then if I understand this right, the use of this glyph is simply to save you a bit of mana and some global cooldowns? For example it would save 4 GC's in a 210 second fight, making space for steady shots. Is that right so far?

And yes, lets say I have a cat, cobra strikes would only apply to claw and not to rake or anything else, as far as I understand it. But this doesnt really change my question. Right now I have no idea what kind of crit levels a pet can reach with lvl 80 and all the proper raid circumstances, but I'm pretty sure it will be able to reach something like 30% at least. That would mean that every third claw is a crit, and the chance that the next 2 promised crits from cobra strikes land exactly in the gap between the regular crit, occuring every third claw, is rather slim, which would make a good part of cobra strikes effect wasted every time. Or did I miss something?

You can yell at me if all of this has been discussed already. I will read it thoroughly.

Rake can crit, it has a hit like any other swing, then a bleed effect attached. It isn't as powerful as Claw in that department, but it's pretty close.
Pets can reach pretty high inherent crits, but unlike us they don't get gear, so what they crit now is what they crit later with no Cobra Strikes. The inherent crit is up to 24% for specials, so you can add 5% from LotP, another 3% from Heart of the Crusader, a bit from Kings (their agility is pretty low, but they count as Warriors) and some 4% from Strentgh of Earth totem or Horn of Winter. So they can reach late 30s from buffs. And yes that does diminish the value of Cobra Strikes. It won't see if the hit is actually a crit before it uses the charges. But crit isn't a guaranteed business, with 33% crit your pet won't crit every three attacks, it will just avarage out to that of course.

I have seen reports with pet-specials critting for more than 50%, so it isn't as if CS is worthless at all.

Rake is affected by cobra strikes, because the initial part can crit. As for what you're missing, it has to do with probabilities. While over a large sample we can expect 1 in every 3 specials to be a crit, that's not the same as saying that every third special will be a crit. With a 30% crit rate, you can have 3 crits in a row, or 3 non-crits in a row. You can have 10 or even 20 non crits in a row. That may not be particularly likely but it's possible (just as it's possible to get a crit streak as well). But in any event we can't assume that a special was going to be a crit because the two ahead of it weren't crits. Every roll is independent.

In other words, with a 30% crit rate for your pet, a Cobra strikes proc will change the next two specials from each having a 70% chance not to crit to instead having a 0% chance not to crit. For any given special that crits because of Cobra Strikes, there is only a 30% probability that it was "wasted".

This is all independent of the question of how to value Cobra Strikes or whether people are overrating it. If you have a 0% crit rate, then Cobra Strikes is useless. If you have a 30% crit rate, then Cobra Strikes has an 18% (30% * 60%) chance to proc from any relevant special. If your pet also has a 30% crit rate, then there is only a 70% chance that a cobra strikes proc makes a difference, which results in a final discounted value of 12.6%.

I can't say for sure but it's just something I've done with every pet as it "feels" right.

I must have sounded terribly clueless if you two thought you have to explain how probability works
Sorry for my wording then, I was generalising it, which in my opinion didnt change the result, but I see how from my comments you must have thought that its neccessary to explain.
In any case I missed the possibility that the single damage part of rake can crit, but nontheless it seems that the effects of CS are a bit vague, compared to some other straight forward talents. I guess time and wws logs will tell.

As for my other question, was my conclusion right, that the use of glyph of Serpent Sting is actually to save GC's and mana? Assuming you can fight without manaproblems, saving 4 GC's in 210 seconds and thus being able to get 4 additional steadies out, would mean that (taking osses log with 6000dps) you can get like 6000 (counting 1500 per steady, which might be too low considering 6000dps) more damage in a timeframe in which you did 1.26 million total, meaning close to 0.5% total damage increase.

It's not that I thought you didn't understand probability, but that I like giving complete answers where possible. Particularly because, as you noted, it's possible to read your question in a way that might confuse some people. I could have answered, "yes, cobra strikes only modifies the next two specials irrespective of whether they crit anyway" and left it at that, but I can guarantee that someone would have picked up on the part where you suggested the chance was "rather slim" and condensed that into "cobra strikes is worthless."

I was pretty sure, that you didn't mean to suggest that Cobra Strikes will have issues using its procs in-between every third claw/rake, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to lay out the answer in some detail.

I didnt try to say that CS is worthless. Not at all, I merely tried to say that its possibly not as good as it looks at a first glance. And you were absolutely right to give a complete answer, I hope I did not sound insulted, which would have been the second misunderstanding, but I blame it all on the language barrier

@noth
I would not really call it totally free damage (since it also costs a slot which might be used differently). Its essentially mana-free extra damage, thats right so far, as I also mentioned. But its not free "additional" damage, as from a pure look at the sting it does the exact same damage over time.
Anyway, I'll start reading the whole thread now, and only ask again if something is still unanswered

If you are interested in theorycrafting you will probably want to check out the WotLK DPS spreadsheet thread that Shandara started.

Sorry to backtrack a little bit but going back to Mattaos' 52/14/5 BM build a page or two back. I'm very interested in trying that spec out. One thing that I'd like to change and mess around with would be moving 2 points from Longevity and moving them to Survival Instincts for a 50/14/7 build. Now with this, of course BW will be on a longer cooldown but I'd be gaining crit on 2 talents (Steady Shot, Arcane Shot) that I plan on using very frequently ever since the Arcane Shot mana change. I'm going to try this out either today or tomorrow on a test dummy and hopefully report back and compare the two builds. In the meantime, I was wondering if any of you guys have had experience with a build like this and what your results were? Thanks.

Hi Emokidcutcut,

I have a question regarding your WWS and the time you hit BW. I browsed your log and after 7sek you used it. Wouldn´t it be better to wait for the 5 stacks of Scorpid Poison and then hit BW? Also, 3/3 in Cobra Strikes better than 3/3 in Invigoration when using a scorpid as pet? I´m confused

Thanks, Fere

Radioheaded:

You're right and I usually wait a bit longer but the gain is pretty marginal. I use 1/3 longevity 3/3 CS build with glyph of BW as that's just enough to keep a rotation of BW+Readiness BW, BW, BW+Readiness BW without delaying readiness at all. (run the numbers on paper to get a better picture)

Kourgath:

Depending on what the final patch notes will be I'll most probably end up with a non readiness build as readiness nerf will be pretty big.

Heres our latest kill, WWS Loading...
Other than the obvious reasons such as having 24people and 8 healers, why is my dps so low? We've yet to see a 25man ranged drop...always had horrible luck with that. I know specs are a bit different and i specced out of rediness to get used to not having it. What consumables(wellfed and elixirs) are u using? And as you can see Im the highest in the guild on most fights. And the crazy thing about those low numbers, we're the #1 ally guild on my server #2 overall. Or are your numbers just that high because of the spike in dmg and quick kill?

Get 263 hit rating and spent FA points in improved stings. Second point in go for the throat is wasted.

80 ap food, 180 ap flask, kibler's bits and mammoth cutters as consumables.

50/21 would be the key to success before 3.0.8

Your guilds kill time is the real dps killer though.

I did do a search in forum for hit cap, came out empty (Iguess I did something wrong..)
Question is what is the new hit cap for hunters?
As a lot of nice stuff is available, but both sockets and +hit are rare nowadays..I use Focused Aim, but still...
Right now my hit is +178 as level 80..
The World of Warcraft Armory
So am I ok with that or?

I'm guessing you missed the thread called Hit Rating right on the front page here in the hunter forums: link.

Short answer, hit cap is now 8%, or +263 hit. There are a lot of other interesting things in regards to how it transfers to your pet, how Focused Aim factors in and so on, but you'll find all that in the thread. It's not even that terribly long.

This is news to me Osse. What level of Crit have you theorised is enough to drop to 1 point in gfft?