Osse I notice you're using a Haste pot during you're third BW to keep the haste buffs going, are you also waiting for Quick Shots to proc or just going right when the CD comes up? I also noticed that you didn't gain AotB so I'm assuming you were AotDH through most of the fight, maybe starting out with Beast and then going into DH. Question there is I dunno how you're getting your pet to do almost 500 more dps than mine. Kibler's bits and 2 points in CS I don't really think are making THAT much of a difference, but I'll definitely be going with every little bit this week to see if I can duplicate your numbers. I just can't seem to figure out how your pet is doing 493 more dps than mine. >.>

DPS from last Patchwerk for comparison

Fimbo I know in the past it used to be a general rule that 35% crit was the point at which you could drop 1 point out of GftT, but with the lower cost on pet family specials, and the fact that we dont have a wind serpent eating 50 focus per special now, I believe the number is drastically lower.

Fimbo I haven't looked for the hot spot for when 1 point in GftT is enough to keep scorpid happy but I'm certain that 35% crit is enough.

Aern I do try to stack all the haste buffs for BW's and yes I only used AotB for the first two BW's mainly because in the past I've found myself without aspect while running to Grobbulus trash, damn rapid fingers clicking aspect off.

That dps difference seems to pile up from various things which in the end results in a big difference. CS, kibler's bits, slightly slower kill time, dodge RNG, slightly lower AP and AotB are the things I can find when comparing WWS's.

Thing is, with scorpid 3/3 CS is actually pretty huge advantage over 1/3. Our gear and raid setup is rather similar and claw dps difference is almost 210. Those two extra points in longevity essentially do nothing unless you change glyph of bestial wrath to serpent sting, certainly not 105 dps per talent point.

I guess if we got one more reset before 3.0.8 I'll shift two points from rapid killing to imp HM as they give zero dps on Patchwerk and push for even higher numbers assuming that they don't hotfix HAT rogues.

From what I have been told by our rogues the multiple point gen coming from multiple hat rogues in the same group has already been hot fixed so I believe the talent is working as intended now.

As for CS/Long issue, what glyphs are you using with 1/3 Long? I'd assume Steady Shot Imp AotH and BW, seeing as how those are fairly standard. As for the points going into Imp HM and out of rapid killing I probably won't go that far considering it is a rather hefty advantage on fights that aren't ridiculously short. Anyhow hopefully this week with my significantly better trinkets (went from zerker's call and mirror of truth to bandit's insignia and fury of the five flights) I should be able to pull in higher average scorpid stacks, combined with using AotB I better be seeing over 3k pet dps or I'm gonna kill someone's kitten!

Also I dunno if all you BM guys are aware of the change to SV yet but Explosive shot is back to 18% AP modifier per tick so 54% total. Basically its a MONSTER again and as a result we might be seeing some more competition for top dps since so much of our gear seems to be pretty well itemized for MM/SV with all that haste. Just some food for thought.

You guessed the glyphs right. If HAT has indeed been hotfixed then I guess there's not much point respeccing as my guilds kill time will probably go down by 30 seconds.

I know this has been brought up before, but 1/2 GftT is only ever "enough" if your crits are evenly distributed among all of your shots. Crit strings can give your pet more focus than it can use at that particular time (since they can't build up more than 100 focus), while non-crit strings can leave your pet with too little focus. Although the final result may show you having crit the same percentage as your character sheet, it doesn't necessarily reflect usable focus points. The second point in GftT is insurance against the RNG.

This is a known limitation of Shandara's spreadsheet, which assumes a steady generation of focus based on your crit. What you would need is a method to tell you how likely you are to starve your pet based on your crit, in which case I can very well see the probability being low enough to make 1/2 GftT more desirable at some crit levels. As far as I know, no one has modeled this and until then one person being certain that "35% crit is enough" is not good enough for me

This has been debated over and over again so I'll clarify my earlier post a bit here.

My 35% crit guideline is based on me staring at my scorpids focus bar during bosses for several weeks and it literally never starves on stand and shoot fights.

Osse,
I thought the conventional thought on glyphs was Bestial Wrath, Serpent Sting, and Steady Shot? Im sorry if it is a noobish question but I was wondering why the IAotH glyph vice Serepent Sting?

moved

Due to it's high uptime. You can expect over 50% uptime for quick shots. That's 50% of the fight with 6% extra haste.

Actually I checked the uptimes from my most recent Patchwerk and found that I had 17.8% uptime while my guildie hunter had 60%. Seems like I got screwed over by RNG properly that go.

Osse,
Any idea how much a DPS increase this yields over the serpent sting glyph?

But with as much haste as a lot of gear has now, is 6% helping you or hurting you? guess it depends on your current haste rating. Im close to 400 and i got rid of that glyph. still tryin diff things

Our thursday kill Wow Web Stats 6287 dps on a 2'43'' kill, can't wait untill we try to push raid dps instead of just clear the thing.

Interesting. I suppose it'll be full AotB and glyph of AotB for next weeks Patchwerk then.

Seeing that you didn't use potion of speed or 3/3 CS build 6.5k should be doable with 2'30 ish kill time.

Just for comparison, 6022dps in 2:55 kill w/ 2 Call of the Wild, Aspect of the Hawk and no speed pot.

Wow Web Stats

i used to follow this thread intensively, but i kinda lost now (since i didnt checked it last week), the things i get stucked with are:

Never seen anybody talking about popping Aspect of the beast when popping Beast within until this last page. Is that a confirmed dps increase (while in beast within than ofc)

And what glyph should be changed for the improved aspect of the beast if that former statement is true? (since i cant believe getting rid off ss glyph, bw cooldown glyph or the longer serpentsting glyph can be dropped (and if i should choose i would say the serpentsting one)

Second is the hastepots. Since BM is hastecapped a hastepot isnt that much of a dps increase, and wouldnt a runic mana potion mean less time in viper = more dps increase? (-edit- just done 25 man raid once in wowlk :-( but thinking back mana didnt seemed any issue so haste might not be bad idea on some encounters, unless you need pot since healers cant keep up)

I cant try it out myself atm since i dont have exces to wow for like two weeks. But really wondering about it.

Regards Esox

(playing with spreadsheet aswell, but i dont get it working properly yet so i dont trust my numbers there so far)

So a random question:

Is Arcane in it's PTR form (reduced cost) currently worth using over Steady, assuming you have the option of using either one? I'm asking primarily because I had a random idea about how they might be able to induce BM to liven up its rotation with Arcane, and I haven't been BM in ages.

Regardless, what if they changed [Glyph of Arcane Shot] to restore a % of your maximum mana instead of the current refund of a % of Arcane's cost (which is obviously much less valuable with the newly reduced cost)? Obviously, the numbers would have to be tweaked according to Blizzard's liking, but I think it'd be a good way to get away from pure Steady spam.

It'd also help Marks a bit in terms of its mana situation, now that I think about it. The other question is, would a reasonable BM Hunter actually use the Arcane glyph? Does a mana refund every six seconds warrant skipping out on something like Glyph of Serpent Sting (which would obviously have to be the glyph being replaced)?

Random brainstorming on my part.

The switching to aspect of the beast under the effects of BW does net a slight dps increase, unless you're using a scorpid where the dps increase is much greater. His poison stacks that are already on the boss increase in damage and you (or him) gain buffs. I've tested this multiple times on a test dummy.

Let's say unbuffed your scorpid's poison is ticking for 1000 with 5 stacks. If you go aspect of the beast with everything else unchanged, the tick will immediately hit for 1100. Then you BW. It'll move to 1500. If he gets a ferocious inspriation tick it will move up to 1550 or so. For each buff he gains, that current stack of poison is increased. That is why when everything is up, they blow beast because a dedicated 5 stack poison ticked being increased by 3000 dmg is much more than the buff you'll gain from dragonhawk.

I have tried it with a Devilsaur and a cat, and the difference is minimal. I'd say maybe a 40-50dps difference between 3 BWs (BW, Raadiness BW, 70sec later BW).

13% arcane buff, 2% physical buff
Steady = (252 + WeaponDamage + AmmoDamage + RAP*0.1)*1.1*1.02*ArmorMitigation
Arcane = (492 + RAP*1.5)*1.13

Crit/Hit and other multipliers are the same for each, so they shouldn't need to be considered. As far as scaling goes, you would have to have a crazy amount of weapon/ammo DPS and/or armor penetration for steady to ever do as much damage as arcane shot with its current 10% RAP scaling. For the current gear and weapons in the game, arcane is always going to do more damage. Since the mana cost is now (or going to be... I remember seeing the blue post but I'm not sure if they've put it in the PTR yet) the same as steady, arcane doesn't really need to be spiced up for BM since they're going to want to use it all the time anyway

Anyone can put their info into the spreadsheet, but here's an example with Envoy, Timeless, 6k RAP, 25% armor mitigation.
Steady = (252 + 449/2.9*2.8 + 148.4 + 6000*0.1)*1.1*1.02*.75=1206.64
Arcane = (492 + 6000*.15)*1.13=1572.96

All multipliers will apply to both, but will further increase the delta between the two shots.

The sillyness of this is that now every BM Hunter will just add a /castrandom line to the current setup.

Esoth

and

AmmoDamage is 148.4 ? Even if it so - it will not be 1206 or i just dont understand something :\

Timeless bullets/arrows are 53 DPS, which is 148.4 damage (assuming it's still normalized to 2.8 speed... otherwise slightly higher for this gun). I went through those numbers again and get the same result. I was actually incredibly lenient on armor mitigation - you're probably more likely to see something around 33% damage reduction than 25%. My point was just to show that arcane is better for BM. Why is 1206 wrong? If you see an error in my formula or math please tell me

Oh, my bad, youre right here

Im speaking about math only:

(252 + 449/2.9*2.8 + 148.4 + 6000*0.1)*1.1*1.02*0.75 = (252 + 55.296 + 148.4 + 600)*0.8415 = 1055.696 * 0.8415 = 888.368

It seems that 449/2.9*2.8 must be (449/2.9)*2.8