I went with my guild in Naxx25 yesterday evening for some tests after the patch but it was impossible due to a crazy lag. We instead went to VoA.
My priority as BM was to be full hit capped without using the Focused aim talents.I had 210 hit rating unbuffed, + 40 hit rating food, + i was in a dranei group for a total of 283 hit rating more than enough to reach the 8% cap.
I missed a total of 18 shots (shared between autoshot,SS and AS) and my pet missed 48 times (an average 20% of miss for every melee ability).
My spec now is 53/18/0 like i said without focused aim.Is it possible that the fixed the pve hit rating to 9% again?And that the pet doesn't get any hit from food and dranei?
Cause otherwise i can't explain that insane amount of misses from me,but especially from my pet.
The most likely culprit here is Archavon's cloud: Choking Cloud - Spell - World of Warcraft. Depending on how much the tank moves him, especially your pet can end up standing in the cloud for a larger part of the fight, resulting in high rate of misses.
Long time reader and first time poster here. Been leading my raid group's dps meters since 70 and BC raiding, and I hope to stay BM as long as I can remain competitive. I'll be raiding this weekend with a 52/12/7 spec and a raptor, so we'll see how my numbers look.
I was wondering if we are going to hear from Mattaos any time soon. I have not seen a post by him in over a month. An update of his first post, which summarizes current BM specs, etc.. would be great. I am hoping he is just gathering his thoughts and waiting for more data from 3.0.8 on live servers.
I am still BM/MM spec, tweaked since patch to take Imp AS. Last night on Patches, I was still able to pull 4100+ dps, which is a bit lower than I did pre-patch but is still respectable all things considered. I'm still spamming my Steady Shot/Kill Shot macro but also keeping Serpent Sting up the entire fight and manually weaving in Arcane Shot every 6 seconds (a 7100 AS crit is nothing to sneeze at, that thing hits like a truck so use it!).
BM may not show the numbers that we used to, and SV or MM may now out-dps us a bit, but BM is still a viable raid spec. Its just a bit harder to play well now.
Interesting. I ignored Imp. Arcane Shot because you're really only going to get a handful of them off in a fight anyway.
I went 53/11/7 for Naxx this week and I was of course knocked waaay off my high-horse.
Patchwerk ended up being the only fight where I kept up with the SV hunter, and he was obviously still getting used to the spec.
Wow Web Stats <-- I was destroyed on practically all the other fights.
It's a far cry from this parse just the week before. To think that Survival is capable of pre-3.0.8 BM numbers like that, Blizzard swapped one bugged spec for another.
And not to be a pessimist, but there's simply no reason to go BM right now. At most you'll bring one for Ferocious Inspiration, but you're better off having a ret paladin in that case. Maybe in Ulduar we'll see BM hunters with 5/5 Endurance Training, heavy stam gear, and tank pets spamming Roar of Sacrifice on the MT...
I think it's safe to say that IAS is now a required talent for both BM and MM raiding.
On the PW I linked above:
20 Arcane Shots
96 Auto Shots
67 Steady Shots
Considering Arcane Shot accounted for just 8% of my damage, another +15% of that is not really that much to begin with. Take into account I'd be ditching 4% extra crit to Steady/Arcane and 1% overall ranged damage and it becomes pretty murky. The points I put into MM were a means to and end (to get 1/1 GftT).
I was on 25man naxx ride yesterday and played BM. I did everything I possibly could and then some more
and still I was sitting at 7th - 11th place on recount stats where I used to dominate before the patch...
So.. even thou I liked to think there was something to be saved in BM I learned my lesson hard way.
Until Blizzard takes a good look at the numbers again I don't see BM as viable raid-spec. At all.
This is my first post here, so understandably Im somewhat nervous.
In the wake of patch 3.0.8, I have been toying with the various possible specs on the Beast Master Tree, playing on variations of the 54/17/0 spec, which is in my humble opinion the most comfortable spec regarding utility and DPS output.
In light of the damage reduction applied to Steady Shot, which I considered to be the main stay shot, as per all posts prior regarding the subject, I felt at a loss as to what would suplement the loss of damage output that this represents.
Ideally a higher crit for Arcane Shot, and the buff provided to Arcane Shot crit chance through other talents would in some circumstances be more beneficial.
Taking into account the basic premisse that the damage over the duration of a encounter is what determines the mean damage output per second, and using some preliminary mathematical calculations I find that the only possible way to continue using the 54/17/0 sepc would be to alter it to a 53/18/0 spec which has been previously pointed elsewhere in this thread - and right now forgive me but I fail to recall who posted it - but with a different take on to the said spec.
In what I have been able to find - again I apologize if I missed some posts on this thread but it is rather large and sometimes search engines dont provide the results due to wrong search concepts being used, or different naming - the difference seems to reside on wether or not to spend 3 points in improved arcane shot over other abilities.
Basing on what Ive read and on the only tools I have at the time of writing which is the Blizzard Talent Tree Calculator, I though that the most profitable use of the 53/18/0 take might be as posted in the link below:
I believe this way the tree would provide decent utility in a allround approach.
Though I have yet to respec to it, and thus test it on dummies and raiding environment, as well as testing on the spreadsheet, I was wondering if anyone could further comment on this.
I have seen people comment that we should be passing on at least two talents which, to my untrained eye, not only increase damage ouput in a buff starved environment such as 5 man, but also pass on talents which seem to provide utility on keeping up the pet's DPS.
I honestly - from reading all posted - and unless Ive missed a post regarding any bugs of the said two talents do not understand why these would be left out in a purely BM talent spec setting.
The two talents in question are Animal Handler and Rapid Killing.
Animall Handler, with at least 1 point spent into it provides a nice increase on the to hit chance of your pet, thus ensuring that it will not fail as much on a boss mob type.
My doubts here result on a somewhat weak understanding on how does expertise affect a pet's chances of landing a blow on a boss mob.
Rapid Killing provides in my opinion the cross-situational support to make this a useful build to maximize DPS in a buff-starved/poor environment for the hunter such as heroic instancing were the talent will proc ( as far as Ive been able to notice, no honor gains occurr in a 10 or 25 man raiding environment, and thus the utility is lost inside raiding situations ).
This build relies also on the hunter having a high crit chance percentile, as a lower crit chance percentile might starve the pet of focus.
Further, it relies on some care on the part of the hunter to provide healing to the pet, as healing done and received due to a lower amount of points spent in Spirit Bond will make it harder to keep your pet alive.
Im sure there are many more of you that have far more experience in theorycrafting, thus i would like to get some feedback as Im assuming Im not making many mistakes on the proposed setup.
Please forgive me not posting more detailed information such as calculations, I will put those up when I get home from work.
Anyway, your thoughts highly appreciated regarding what I have said.
Animal Handler is a solid ability - I see that in many BM specs - i always used it before this patch.
Rapid Killing is ok, but spreadsheet maths suggests the points are better spent in Improved Tracking, as is also the case with the extra points in Mortal Shots.
That said the highest BM hunter I saw raiding last night was using Aimed Shot and Arcane Shot ahead of SS, so that might be a route worth taking.
(Oh and trim the "ltrftp / thanks for reading" type bits, brevity and clarity are the watchwords here.)
As Tobin posted here, a rough approximation would be that you gain 1% personal DPS per point in improved arcane shot. The same gain could be obtained from 1 point in improved tracking, and also allows going 7 into survival for 4% steady/arcane crit.
The reason Rapid Killing is forgone in non-readiness builds (i.e. all non-MM specs in 3.0.8) is because it provides a DPS increase of 0 on all standard naxx bosses because the fight durations are 3 minutes or less. If you experience 3.5+ minute fights, it may be beneficial. The main issue is probably that rapid fire itself isn't phenomenal since it's 15 seconds of more auto shots, while doing nothing for steady/arcane/serpent.
As far as animal handler goes. It's a good talent, and any BM build without 2/2 is losing damage. Since it is expertise, and not hit, it's significant because it reduces the dodges/parries your pet receives and it is not possible for hunters to provide pets expertise in any other way.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
As Tobin posted here, a rough approximation would be that you gain 1% personal DPS per point in improved arcane shot. The same gain could be obtained from 1 point in improved tracking, and also allows going 7 into survival for 4% steady/arcane crit.
The reason Rapid Killing is forgone in non-readiness builds (i.e. all non-MM specs in 3.0.8) is because it provides a DPS increase of 0 on all standard naxx bosses because the fight durations are 3 minutes or less. If you experience 3.5+ minute fights, it may be beneficial. The main issue is probably that rapid fire itself isn't phenomenal since it's 15 seconds of more auto shots, while doing nothing for steady/arcane/serpent.
As far as animal handler goes. It's a good talent, and any BM build without 2/2 is losing damage. Since it is expertise, and not hit, it's significant because it reduces the dodges/parries your pet receives and it is not possible for hunters to provide pets expertise in any other way.
Improved tracking is closer to a gain of 0.5% for BM, since it doesn't apply to pets. Quick correction to rapid killing: if the fight is less than 3 minutes this talent has no benefit whether or not you have readiness.
Edit: Misread, as Trevy pointed out below... bah.
I keep trying to find cases (in the spreadsheet) where a build with aimed shot will out perform one with improved tracking, but it always falls short. Aimed shot does have the 0 second casting time going for it though, so I could see it potentially being superior in high mobility fights.
Last edited by Esoth : 01/22/09 at 4:05 PM.
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
Improved tracking is closer to a gain of 0.5% for BM, since it doesn't apply to pets.
I have found both in dummy tests and Heroics since the patch (my guild doesn't raid til the weekend) that my pet now does about 35% of my damage, rather than the 45-50% I used to see. So maybe we should revise the rule of thumb to say that talents, etc, that affect only the hunter affect two-thirds (rather than half) of our total damage -- and go with a gain of 0.66% (per point) for Improved Tracking.
Improved tracking is closer to a gain of 0.5% for BM, since it doesn't apply to pets.
The person you quoted said 1% personal dps, which is correct, and was comparing it to the personal dps increase provided by improved arcane shot (which also doesn't apply to pets). Improved tracking is less than a 1% increase in total dps for EVERY hunter spec since it doesn't apply to pets. It's all a matter of degree, and as Rosa pointed out, post patch BM pet dps is closer to 33-35% of total dps.
I tried the 53/18 spec (with 3/3 IAS) on a test dummy earlier this evening and it dropped my overall dmg quite a bit compared to the 53/11/7 build I had before.
As an update: I am running with a 53/18/0 build. Last night during Naxx25, I did 4200+ dps on Patches. I did about 800 dps more than the two MMs in the group (with slightly different builds) and about 800 dps below our SV hunter. While not way above everyone else in the raid (actually I never was), I believe I still did pretty well. Overall for the night, I averaged 3300ish dps (sorry I don't have WWS, we don't run them anymore and I forgot to turn on my combat log). I was keeping Serpent Sting up at all times, spamming Steady Shot and hitting Arcane Shot every 6 seconds.
I should also note that because of placement on Patches, my devilsaur was in the green muck the entire fight. Had he not been, my dps would obviously have been a bit higher. He was normally running about 1500 dps per fight and during Patches only did 1000 dps.
I think its a mistake to try and compare ourselves to pre-patch numbers. Obviously we are going to be lower now. The question that remains is whether BM is still a viable spec for raiding. I believe it is. After some discussion with the hunters in our guild, we have decided that MM is not a viable raiding spec so the two MMs will be switching to either BM or SV, most likely SV.
Another interesting note is that according to the spreadsheet, a raptor will do significantly higher dps for me than a devilsaur. So I'm leveling one up and hope to use it next week during Naxx so I can compare the two. Savage Rend seems to pull ahead of Monstrous Bite due to the additional AP on crit. We shall see.
"I've always wondered what it'd be like to have a prehensile penis, but you don't see me shitting up this thread with my idea." - Kaubel
Another interesting note is that according to the spreadsheet, a raptor will do significantly higher dps for me than a devilsaur. So I'm leveling one up and hope to use it next week during Naxx so I can compare the two. Savage Rend seems to pull ahead of Monstrous Bite due to the additional AP on crit. We shall see.
Mind that the spreadsheet does not model Savage Rend correctly. It is modelled as a 10% damage increase for 30s after a Savage Rend crit instead of a 10% AP increase.
I think its a mistake to try and compare ourselves to pre-patch numbers. Obviously we are going to be lower now. The question that remains is whether BM is still a viable spec for raiding. I believe it is. After some discussion with the hunters in our guild, we have decided that MM is not a viable raiding spec so the two MMs will be switching to either BM or SV, most likely SV.
Your MM hunters are wrong. I'm still MM, although a different spec from pre-patch and using a cat over a scorpid, and I was somewhere around 4200 DPS on Patch and second on damage to our mage who is probably the biggest min/maxer I've ever played with. And of course there's Trueshot Aura which is almost mandatory especially if you don't have whichever spec DK does the AP buff.
Mind that the spreadsheet does not model Savage Rend correctly. It is modelled as a 10% damage increase for 30s after a Savage Rend crit instead of a 10% AP increase.
Yeah, I know. That's why I'm not dumping my devilsaur until I get a real in-action test to compare the two. I'm hoping it will at least be close, though. With the devilsaur's huge hit box, Sarth's firewalls are a real pain.
Originally Posted by Tapout
Your MM hunters are wrong. I'm still MM, although a different spec from pre-patch and using a cat over a scorpid, and I was somewhere around 4200 DPS on Patch and second on damage to our mage who is probably the biggest min/maxer I've ever played with. And of course there's Trueshot Aura which is almost mandatory especially if you don't have whichever spec DK does the AP buff.
Both MMs had a cat last night, although that's the last time that will happen. We checked their rotations and what they were doing was good, pumping out the most they could, but they just fell behind the entire night. No idea why. TSA is nice but since we always have at least 3 DKs, not really a necessity.
"I've always wondered what it'd be like to have a prehensile penis, but you don't see me shitting up this thread with my idea." - Kaubel
I'm not posting much as you can see,but this time i just have to.
I've been Bm since long and i'm following all kind of conversation in this forum to keep myself updated with everything i need to know.
This night i had my test with BM 3.0.8. I raided with a 53/18/0 spec and a SS,AS rotation.I used my cat (I know Devisaur is better but i have one lv 79). From the numbers i had,this was not a nerf it was a rape. I was the last dps on list (barely above the tanks) when before this patch i used to be constantly top 3 since months (with other hunters or locks) and i can say my dps is always been consistenly high.
On patchwerk i did 1.9k dps when before i pushed easily 5.2k (i'm pretty well geared,still need to get some best-in-slot).
I know you have different numbers,so probably i did something wrong but anyway nothing to justify such a loss.
Honestly I don't believe you have to be the most accurate of the theorycrafters,nor a physic genius to understand that this nerf was way too heavy.Really way too heavy.It's more than a nerf,it's a spec kill,since now i don't see the point in going BM at all.
Imo a decent nerf to the pet,a little boost of Sv tree, and a nerf to volley was more than enough in keeping the class well balanced but still with hight dps (we are still a pure dps class).
The other hunters,one was SV the other MM,they did much better than me but overall they were like 6-7 in the meter.I thought Blizzard said they wanted to have pure dps classes a bit above the hybrid but my meter see the opposite with on top paladins,priests,warriors and this evening an elemental shaman.
I'm not posting much as you can see,but this time i just have to.
I've been Bm since long and i'm following all kind of conversation in this forum to keep myself updated with everything i need to know.
This night i had my test with BM 3.0.8. I raided with a 53/18/0 spec and a SS,AS rotation.I used my cat (I know Devisaur is better but i have one lv 79). From the numbers i had,this was not a nerf it was a rape. I was the last dps on list (barely above the tanks) when before this patch i used to be constantly top 3 since months (with other hunters or locks) and i can say my dps is always been consistenly high.
On patchwerk i did 1.9k dps when before i pushed easily 5.2k (i'm pretty well geared,still need to get some best-in-slot).
I know you have different numbers,so probably i did something wrong but anyway nothing to justify such a loss.
Honestly I don't believe you have to be the most accurate of the theorycrafters,nor a physic genius to understand that this nerf was way too heavy.Really way too heavy.It's more than a nerf,it's a spec kill,since now i don't see the point in going BM at all.
Imo a decent nerf to the pet,a little boost of Sv tree, and a nerf to volley was more than enough in keeping the class well balanced but still with hight dps (we are still a pure dps class).
The other hunters,one was SV the other MM,they did much better than me but overall they were like 6-7 in the meter.I thought Blizzard said they wanted to have pure dps classes a bit above the hybrid but my meter see the opposite with on top paladins,priests,warriors and this evening an elemental shaman.
Tomorrow i'm goin to spec SV.
I was afraid this was going to happen so I tested my specs on the heroic target dummy. With my gear I got 1.8k as BM, 2.4k as marks, and ~3k as Survival.
It was pretty clear, lol.
Regemming and rechanting all my gear was pretty fun, spent so much gold .
I enjoyed BM, but I feel more involved as Survival and am having a lot of fun with it. Hopefully they implement those pet talents they were talking about to give BM hunters a bit of a boost, because their DPS is just sad from what I'm hearing.
Mind that the spreadsheet does not model Savage Rend correctly. It is modelled as a 10% damage increase for 30s after a Savage Rend crit instead of a 10% AP increase.
Actually the spreadsheet does it perfectly. The tooltip is wrong. If you look at the actual buff that it gives your pet, Savagery - Spell - World of Warcraft you can see that it is, in fact, 10% damage rather than 10% AP.
I did a Naxx25 run today also. Used 52/12/7 spec with a cat. Was planning to try raptor, but was too lazy to level it up in time.
We had quite unbalanced grp, no palas.. no dps warriors.. etc and horrible lag, but I was still able to top the meters with 4,3k dps on patchwerk and was in top 3 if not first on most others. (No WWS proof, soz about that)
Most dpsers were struggling to keep rotations up cause of the lagg, so can't really say how we are doing against other classes atm, but I can't say that BM is totally useless atm.
I'm not posting much as you can see,but this time i just have to.
I've been Bm since long and i'm following all kind of conversation in this forum to keep myself updated with everything i need to know.
This night i had my test with BM 3.0.8. I raided with a 53/18/0 spec and a SS,AS rotation.I used my cat (I know Devisaur is better but i have one lv 79). From the numbers i had,this was not a nerf it was a rape. I was the last dps on list (barely above the tanks) when before this patch i used to be constantly top 3 since months (with other hunters or locks) and i can say my dps is always been consistenly high.
On patchwerk i did 1.9k dps when before i pushed easily 5.2k (i'm pretty well geared,still need to get some best-in-slot).
I know you have different numbers,so probably i did something wrong but anyway nothing to justify such a loss.
Honestly I don't believe you have to be the most accurate of the theorycrafters,nor a physic genius to understand that this nerf was way too heavy.Really way too heavy.It's more than a nerf,it's a spec kill,since now i don't see the point in going BM at all.
Imo a decent nerf to the pet,a little boost of Sv tree, and a nerf to volley was more than enough in keeping the class well balanced but still with hight dps (we are still a pure dps class).
The other hunters,one was SV the other MM,they did much better than me but overall they were like 6-7 in the meter.I thought Blizzard said they wanted to have pure dps classes a bit above the hybrid but my meter see the opposite with on top paladins,priests,warriors and this evening an elemental shaman.
Tomorrow i'm goin to spec SV.
Confirmed, raiding as bm is just horrible now. I have no clue how tobin managed to get that high dps on patchwerk as beastmastery with the current status of the spec. I used 53/18/0 on patchwerk and only managed to get ~4200dps, maybe I guess it could have been a bit higher due to me trying to click my fireseeds for 20sec(why did blizz remove them :S?).. It seems that 53/11/7 is the right choise to go with now? Not going to bother trying anything with BM now as survival seems to be the #1 spec now.
I had a rather random idea recently and I'm currently playing with it in the spreadsheet, but I thought I'd bring it up here anyway and see if anyone else has had the same idea.
I'm wondering what peoples thoughts are of gearing and gemming a BM hunter post 3.08 entirely for critical strike rating (once hit capped). The point of the spec would be constant uptime of cobra strikes to increase pet damage output and using increased crit via the mortal shots modifier to soften the blow of the steady shot nerf.
I’m playing around in the spreadsheet using several different models (51/15/5 using a Devilsaur; 50/21/0, 50/16/5 and 50/14/7 using a Cat/Raptor) and I’m coming up with pretty static figures of between 5200 and 5450dps fully raid buffed running at 46% crit (obviously using best in slot crit gear and 2pc T7.5) which seems to be circa 1k dps better than any build around AP or Agility. I’m not going over the top with buffs either, I’m relying on some pretty common ones and, of course, 5% crit bonus from a feral/warrior.
I’m still somewhat of a novice with the spreadsheet (although it is rather self-explanatory) so I’d like to see if anyone else is able to produce similar results to me.
01/22/09, 5:03 AM
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