I had a rather random idea recently and I'm currently playing with it in the spreadsheet, but I thought I'd bring it up here anyway and see if anyone else has had the same idea.
I'm wondering what peoples thoughts are of gearing and gemming a BM hunter post 3.08 entirely for critical strike rating (once hit capped). The point of the spec would be constant uptime of cobra strikes to increase pet damage output and using increased crit via the mortal shots modifier to soften the blow of the steady shot nerf.
I’m playing around in the spreadsheet using several different models (51/15/5 using a Devilsaur; 50/21/0, 50/16/5 and 50/14/7 using a Cat/Raptor) and I’m coming up with pretty static figures of between 5200 and 5450dps fully raid buffed running at 46% crit (obviously using best in slot crit gear and 2pc T7.5) which seems to be circa 1k dps better than any build around AP or Agility. I’m not going over the top with buffs either, I’m relying on some pretty common ones and, of course, 5% crit bonus from a feral/warrior.
I’m still somewhat of a novice with the spreadsheet (although it is rather self-explanatory) so I’d like to see if anyone else is able to produce similar results to me.
Check your DPS on Loatheb even the huge 50% (or less?) buff you get from his adds doesnt push your dps alot so i think that its not a good choice to stack crit. Correct me if im wrong. Its like you need to balance stats not just stack one.
I'd say there's some kind of diminishing effect on crit rating, after we get enough to keep Cobra Strikes up and reasonable number of GftT procs there are better stats to stack, like AP
I have just completed a petty survey of Beast Mastery Hunter DPS at Naxxramas 25 man, post patch 3.0.8.
Website Used: Wow Web Stats
Dungeon: Naxxramas (Heroic)
Encounter Name: Patchwerk
Date: 21 January, 2009, and hence.
Results Browsed: Top 400
Sorting method: Results sorted by Top Overall Raid DPS
Raid Samples: EU & US (excluding Anonymous raids)
Note 1: I chose Patchwerk because it is an ideal fight for a Hunter to do their maximum attainable DPS.
Note 2: Only the top 400 DPS Raid Entries were used out of a total available 35,477 entries.
Results:
---------
Top Beast Mastery DPS observed: 4,706
Lowest Beast Mastery DPS observed: 4,057
Average (Median) Beast Mastery DPS noted: 4,381.5
Individual Results (figures stand for DPS):
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1. Agito (Blood Elf), US Gurubashi (21-1-2009): 4,195 Wow Web Stats
2. Bahtila (Orc), US Korgath (21-1-2009): 4,141 WWS Loading...
3. Brakez (Draenei), US Alterac Mountains (22-1-2009): 4,614 Wow Web Stats
4. Cooners (Orc), US Illidan (21-1-2009): 4,330 Wow Web Stats
5. Disraeli (Night Elf), US Chromaggus (21-1-2009): 4,505 Wow Web Stats
6. Grounded (Orc), US Skullcrusher (21-1-2009): 4,706 WWS Loading...
7. Kaidan (Troll), US Skullcrusher (22-1-2009): 4,057 Wow Web Stats
8. Raynoir (Dwarf), US Proudmoore (22-1-2009): 4,339 Wow Web Stats
9. Ryoushii (Orc), US Mal’Ganis (21-1-2009): 4,261 WWS Loading...
10. Tauceti (Troll), US Nefarian (21-1-2009): 4,078 Wow Web Stats
11. Woppa (Troll), US Korgath (21-1-2009): 4,092 Wow Web Stats
12. Yhayela (Draenei), EU Bronzebeard (21-1-2009): 4,483 Wow Web Stats
Remarks:
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1. Unsurprisingly, the top Beast Mastery DPS observed was achieved by an Orc, no doubt because of their correct use of their racials.
2. During the same dates, in the same dungeon, and against the same boss (Patchwerk), Survival Raid Builds were achieving circa 4,000 to 5,770 DPS.
3. During the same dates, in the same dungeon, and against the same boss (Patchwerk), Marksmanship Raid Builds were achieving circa 3,300 to 4,990 DPS.
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I will also post the same at the European Forums. I understand that Ghostcrawler is looking for feedback from the community, and he’s interested in numbers.
Last edited by Sturmbringe : 01/27/09 at 1:36 PM.
Reason: Edited out the recommended Beast Mastery Builds as I posted an update.
You really can't derive much just from looking at the top XX WWS reports. High average raid DPS != high average hunter DPS. In fact none of these listed BM hunters are approaching anywhere near the spec's potential 'spreadsheet' DPS. Refer back to my earlier post for example.
Just a quick glance, but the hunter in your first report doesn't even use Serpent Sting.
I'm testing BM in 10 man Naxx, using both arcane and aimed in my rotation, and I will say I remember pulling slightly lower numbers before...at level 70 in full T6 right before the Expansion. Considering I'm 9 of 16 best in slot for Wrath gear, and not too far behind on the rest, this is saddening.
As a Surv I'm pulling 800 DPS more on average in 10 mans.
I'm hopping around to compare. I'm using a 52 / 15 / 5 build, along typical lines for BM. We are about to hit Patchwerk, so ill report what i hit on him. I was capable of 3800 DPS at my best on him pre 3.08.
It has been very difficult to find any Hunters still specc'd Beast mastery after the the 21st of January. Practically everyone had changed to Survival Raid Builds or Marksmanship Builds. I think that this answers your remark regarding the poor rotation of one person. In short terms, I just picked whomever I could find. Beast Masters are becoming scarce.
I saw that you achieved 5,407 DPS at Patchwerk. That's impressive, but I can't help but wonder whether your sample is typical or you are just, to use Ghostcrawler's expression, an "outlier". It is also worth to note that you didn't even had Improved Arcane Shot (the Marksmanship talent) that day, or did you?
As you see, most of the samples I managed to find, typically achieve an average DPS of 4,400. I think that this is what the average player is capable of getting out of the Beast Mastery Build post patch 3.0.8. Regarding spreadsheet DPS, it is widely known that this is very rarely achieved by most people for a variety of reasons. Have you tested 53 Beast Mastery/18 Marksmanship by any chance?
I would take a look at Patchwerk fights ranging from 4 - 4.5 minutes, because this is more average, and it will grade down the DPS.
In our average 4 min kills, I hit a max DPS of 4900 DPS with no flask, and a few raid buffs missing. Here is a 3 min 49 second one that is still active. Wow Web Stats
If the Max DPS you found in ~ 3 minute kills is 4,700, and median is 4,400, this would indicate quite a significant reduction overall.
The fact that so many people jumped ship is still going to pose a data problem. If there's a call to evacuate (valid or not), the only people not in the lifeboats either didn't get the message or are incapacitated. The only way to get data that we can trust is for people to test out BM, then test out SV or MM under similar conditions. This is going to take more than a couple of days.
Another problem is that it's not necessarily safe to assume that people who are using BM are maximizing it. When things were overpowered and simpler, a lot of people's flaws were masked. When raiding as BM post-patch I noticed myself clipping my serpent stings (maybe because of crazy lag) and starting steady shots right before arcane's CD was up, which wasted Arcane's uptime. I never had to worry about whether it makes sense to wait half a second for arcane's CD to come up instead of starting a steady cast, because I was used to starting steady shot as soon as my GCD was up (except when I had to refresh serpent or hunter's mark). These issues aren't captured by statements like "I incorporated arcane shot into my rotation." I did too, and I'm pretty sure I messed it up a lot. Eventually I won't. Maybe our shamans got so excited at being elemental again and learning their own rotations that they popped heroism at the most godawful time they could as far as I was concerned.
There really hasn't been the same kind of analysis that has gone into issues like what to do when LnL procs. There's a lot of hemming and hawing about how terrible BM is, but no real discussion of how to perfect a shot rotation or priority or whatever the heck it is we have. There's been a little discussion about whether it's better to use a raptor and manually time Savage Rend for after a Cobra Strikes proc, or to just let it ride and hope for the best (Savage Rend may be off the GCD, but what if you press it when your pet doesn't have enough focus? Is it better to toggle autocast? Will you remember to turn it back off?)
The fact that so many people jumped ship is still going to pose a data problem. If there's a call to evacuate (valid or not), the only people not in the lifeboats either didn't get the message or are incapacitated. The only way to get data that we can trust is for people to test out BM, then test out SV or MM under similar conditions. This is going to take more than a couple of days.
Another problem is that it's not necessarily safe to assume that people who are using BM are maximizing it. When things were overpowered and simpler, a lot of people's flaws were masked. When raiding as BM post-patch I noticed myself clipping my serpent stings (maybe because of crazy lag) and starting steady shots right before arcane's CD was up, which wasted Arcane's uptime. I never had to worry about whether it makes sense to wait half a second for arcane's CD to come up instead of starting a steady cast, because I was used to starting steady shot as soon as my GCD was up (except when I had to refresh serpent or hunter's mark). These issues aren't captured by statements like "I incorporated arcane shot into my rotation." I did too, and I'm pretty sure I messed it up a lot. Eventually I won't. Maybe our shamans got so excited at being elemental again and learning their own rotations that they popped heroism at the most godawful time they could as far as I was concerned.
There really hasn't been the same kind of analysis that has gone into issues like what to do when LnL procs. There's a lot of hemming and hawing about how terrible BM is, but no real discussion of how to perfect a shot rotation or priority or whatever the heck it is we have. There's been a little discussion about whether it's better to use a raptor and manually time Savage Rend for after a Cobra Strikes proc, or to just let it ride and hope for the best (Savage Rend may be off the GCD, but what if you press it when your pet doesn't have enough focus? Is it better to toggle autocast? Will you remember to turn it back off?)
I'm actually going to raid BM next week to test things out, since we clear Naxx with ease.
I just did 10 man Patchwerk as a BM and hit 2987 DPS. I will post screen shots of individual shot break downs after I'm done with the run.
We do not plan to overhaul Elemental's spells in 3.1 so we need a longer-term fix for them. (This does not mean Elemental is getting no attention in 3.1.) We do plan on changing hunter abilities so we will have to rebalance them anyway.
Blue post. This seems to be thieir answer for everything right now that we bring up. I find it interesting that the say they are changing "abilities".
It has been very difficult to find any Hunters still specc'd Beast mastery after the the 21st of January. Practically everyone had changed to Survival Raid Builds or Marksmanship Builds. I think that this answers your remark regarding the poor rotation of one person. In short terms, I just picked whomever I could find. Beast Masters are becoming scarce.
That was one example though in the higher DPS reports, I did notice that I fired a lot more Steady Shots than Brakez and Grounded. I suspect they were being way to aggressive with watching Arcane Shot's CD when they could have fired an extra steady in the meantime.
I saw that you achieved 5,407 DPS at Patchwerk. That's impressive, but I can't help but wonder whether your sample is typical or you are just, to use Ghostcrawler's expression, an "outlier". It is also worth to note that you didn't even had Improved Arcane Shot (the Marksmanship talent) that day, or did you?
I don't see why my sample would be atypical. My crit rate is about the same. The number of Quick Shots and Cobra Strikes is within the norm. I did use full consumables, and I noticed my devilsaur did 200-300 more DPS than highest DPS pets in those reports. Regarding Imp. Arcane Shot. I stated my reasons for avoiding the talent. While it's nice to see big crits...around 6K talented, it amounts to a miniscule DPS increase as Arcane Shot was only 8% of my total DPS anyway.
As you see, most of the samples I managed to find, typically achieve an average DPS of 4,400. I think that this is what the average player is capable of getting out of the Beast Mastery Build post patch 3.0.8. Regarding spreadsheet DPS, it is widely known that this is very rarely achieved by most people for a variety of reasons. Have you tested 53 Beast Mastery/18 Marksmanship by any chance?
I have already regemmed/respec'd for raiding as SV, so I won't be able to help compare 53/18/0 with 53/11/7. I'm fairly confident a variation of the latter spec will be best over-all.
I would be very interested in hearing from someone trying to manually weave Raptor's Savage Rend during Cobra Strike procs. From my point of view Savagery's 30 secs duration coupled with it's 42 secs cooldown (via 3/3 Longevity) is probably the only thing that may keep BM competitive. Alas, my isp's average 400-700ms latency doesn't allow me to test this properly (not to mention an across the board dps loss due to shot delay ).
Here is a shot break down for a 10 man patchwerk I did as BM. This is only for comparison of shots relative to each other. I am doing this for all my runs this weekend in order to give a valid attempt at BM in a 25 man situation.
Arcane shot has increase damage from FI, and no Imp arcane shot.
Auto Shot Hit ------ 0973 average --- 0545 / 1394 range --- 43.0 percent of damage total
Auto shot Crit ----- 2050 average --- 1272 / 2867 range
Steady Shot Hit --- 0844 average --- 0460 / 1149 range --- 20.4 percent of damage total
Steady Shot Crit -- 2113 average --- 1821 / 2575 range ---
Arcane Shot Hit --- 1536 average --- 1208 / 2012 range --- 15.9 percent of damage total
Arcane Shot Crit -- 2617 average --- 2084 / 4785 range ---
Aimed Shot Hit --- 1186 average --- 1116 / 1294 range --- 09.2 percent of damage total
Aimed Shot Crit -- 3007 average --- 3659 / 2943 range --- (55 percent crits, some positive RNG there)
Serpent Sting and Kill shot made up the other 11.6 percent.
My pet did 33 percent of my damage, and Rake only did 3 percent of his total damage... (I just realized I forgot to spend the extra 4 points from respeccing, adding 6 percent pet damage, so probably raising his percentage to 35 percent).
Steady Shot hits for less the Auto Shot and it's main saving grace is that it gets the additional crit bonus, making the crit average higher. Low hits can be attributed to switching to viper for a few seconds to regen some mana.
Comparing Aimed shot to arcane is rudimentary at best here, since it is such a small sample, but we can see that Arcane hits for comparatively more on average, and I think that the complexity of trying to manage a 6 second CD versus a 10 second CD, on a 1.5 second interval scale, make Aimed shot tricky to use. You will either end up having to wait an extra 0.5 seconds till the CD is up, or pushing it off a full second to use another CD. Also since at times Arcane and Aimed come off of CD at the same time, you have to choose between the two.I think I will probably omit Aimed shot for this reason, as I am not sure that replacing a steady with Aimed shot every 10 seconds is worth the CD push. Even on spreadsheets using Aimed seems to only help 20 - 30 DPS and this is under optimal conditions.
Aimed seems to be approximately 30 percent more damage then steady in this test, and versus the frequency of Steady shots available in 30 seconds ( I use this amount of time becuase ideal this should be the first time both shots should come off of CD at the same time), it only amounts to about 1 extra Steady Shot's worth of damage. This means you can only afford about 1.5 seconds worth of CD clipping per 30 seconds to equal DPS gain versus just keeping to a nice Steady / Arcane only rotation. Since I saw myself clipping CDs a lot, I just don't think managing these two CD s will give you extra DPS and allow you to pay attention to your surroundings effectively.
Ill do more testing next week in 25 man raiding and see how i compare. I will note that the warlock who was above me in the report I posted usually runs neck and neck with me, especially on Patchwerk, with us swapping number 1 DPS by as little as 4000 damage at one point. He pulled a good 800 DPS more then me on this Patchwerk attempt, and this is a lot of ground to make up.
A little note on using serpent sting, since someone mentioned clipping it often. To avoid clipping my serpent stings, I use a Pet Mend macro I altered to prevent this from occurring. I know I could use a timer bar, but this also keeps me from jumping the gun.
/castsequence reset=19 serpent sting, null
This greys out the button until I am 2 seconds from the shot dropping off the boss, so i know as soon as I see the GCD go off on the button, It's time to reapply.
I had my first post-patch raid last night, and I was pleased to see that although I no longer tower over everyone else on the meters, I am still in the top 3. Given all the changes that are hinted at for hunters in 3.1, I think it will be more challenging and entertaining for the rest of 3.0 to see how far I can push the BM spec than to compete with our SV hunter for the top spot -- I already know he is a better player than I am anyway! And given that we do not have a ret pallie in our guild, I am bringing raid utility in the form of FI as well.
Everyone talks about the comparative damage output of Improved Tracking vs Survival Instincts vs Improved Arcane Shot, so I thought why not take all three and see what happens? This 51/13/7 spec is what I was working with in last night's raid, and I was running with my cat, Puff. If I really wanted to be bold, I would spec it 50/14/7 and move a point from Beat Mastery to get 3/3 Improved Arcane Shot, and that is probably what I will end up doing once I get my rotation and the execution thereof working better. Until then, my pet needs the extra survivability.
Here is the WWS for our Archavon-25 fight. We only had 18 in the raid (and one was a healer 2-boxing his warlock) -- so the raid buffs may not be completely ideal and the fight took longer than it should have. However, I pulled 3400 dps on it, only 350 behind our SV hunter and 2nd overall. For my guild at our level of play (we are more NAIA than NFL), those are perfectly respectable numbers, and I have plenty of room to improve them as I learn to stop clipping Serpent Sting and improve my timing on Arcane Shot.
EDIT: I also noticed that my cat does not have even one Rake recorded. Since I certainly did not turn Rake off intentionally, it must have turned itself off as seems to be happening to others. So there is another place for improvement.
The Sarth fight is more a reflection of my abyssmal performance in keeping my pet out of the fire than a reflection of what the spec is capable of. We are doing Naxx-10 tonight, so I will have a shot on Patchwerk and can get a better picture of how well things are working.
Both live and spreadsheet keeps telling me that Aspect of the beast amounts to more dps than using Hawk (dragonhawk), especially with the attempts to weave beast in before TBW. I ran with it once to test it out and I lost dps from switching back and forth.
I completely understand the potential, and I love the increased speed on autoshots, as they are a big part of our damage - having played feral dps in tbc I had an aversion to haste after the cap, but it isn't at all bad (compared to what it was for feral in tbc for instance).
BUT; the point remains, staying in beast gives more dps both live and spreadsheeted for me than switching back and forth whether or not I take IAotH.
Also the extra health from ET makes it easier to keep my pet alive on pet hostile fights (Heigan, Sartharion) and is only invalidated on fights like Kel'Thuzad and his void zones which are instant kill.
Following up on my earlier post, I have been testing heavily my take on the 53/18/0 spec for BM.
For testing purposes I have done 4.200 Shots on Heroic Dummy and a total of 3 Naxx 10 and 3 Naxx 25 Runs. Notice that on each Nacc run I started exactly with 4.200 ammo ( Frostbite 42.6 DPS was used in all cases ).
The firing rotation I used was calculated by live analysis of shot cool down times on my gear. Once last shot has been fired, its rinse and repeat until Kill Shot ignites, at which point Kill Shot is Prioritized, and fired as soon as it is up again.
Glyphs I use are the Serpent Sting and Steady Shot.
You will notice immediately my gear is far from ideal, as it still has 2 major pieces in T4 and several blues ( wotlk ones ).
The pet is a Cat, talented to the best DPS spec allowing for the extra 4 points from exotic BM to improve overall pet DPS Output.
The testing I did:
On Heroic dummy in Ironforge, average dps unbuffed and using same gear as you can see from my profile, the en result was a steady 1.800 DPS ( combined pet and hunter damage ) as gathered by recount.
On Naxx 10 in the following bosses and cross-trash the meters stayed at an average of 2.100 with a top of 2.850 Dps on Faerlina & Razuvious, and a second highest of 2.700 Dps on Anub.
Shot percentile: 32% Autoshot, 23% Steady Shot, 13% Arcane, with the remainder being split between Kill Shot ( bosses and elites only ) as well Multi/Volley for trash packs.
That being said, the highest DPS was done by the following three classes:
Rogue at 3.300 Dps
Frost-fire Mage with 3.100 Dps
Warlock with 3.000 Dps
On Naxx 25 Im compiling all the information and checking my mean average dmg calculations are correct. Will post them soon as Im done checking all the information.
Where else are you going to put you first 5 points? The extra health is really inconsequential since they buffed pet health. It is your healers' job to keep up your pet as well.
For pure raid dps in 25 man as BM, wouldn't it make sense to skip Animal Handler and spend the last point into Frenzy (5/5)?
Expertise does not increase hit chance.
Instead it decreases the chance that the mob your pet is fighting will be able to dodge or parry your pet's attacks (by 2.5% if you have both ranks of the talent).
Note also that if your pet isn't tanking, it automatically attacks from behind, and mobs can't parry attacks from behind anyway.
Mobs can't parry from behind.
They can still dodge.
With standard raid buffs, 4/5 Frenzy should be well enough for your pet to have a near 100% frenzy uptime anyway.
It's not like 5/5 frenzy will bring more DPS.
You can verify this for your own pet, with your own character's gear by downloading Shandara's spreadsheet.
Mobs can't parry from behind.
They can still dodge.
With standard raid buffs, 4/5 Frenzy should be well enough for your pet to have a near 100% frenzy uptime anyway.
It's not like 5/5 frenzy will bring more DPS.
Thanks.
Just found more info linked on wowhead.
One point of Expertise decreases the chance that melee attacks made by the player will be dodged or parried by 0.25%.
Therefore, with 2/2 Animal Handler, when your pet attacks:
*
From behind (as when doing dungeons or raids): enemy has a 2.5% reduced chance to dodge your pet's attacks.
*
From the front (as when soloing): enemy has a 2.5% reduced chance to dodge your pet's attacks and a 2.5% reduced chance to parry.
With standard raid buffs, 4/5 Frenzy should be well enough for your pet to have a near 100% frenzy uptime anyway.
It's not like 5/5 frenzy will bring more DPS.
If you have 3/3 Cobra Strikes, 3/5 Frenzy should be sufficient for near 100% Frenzy uptime.
This is our wws from patchwerk last nigt. Wow Web Stats
As you see 5 k is possible, i think i can do alot better than 4.9 k i only had 2 BW because i tried to time the Heroism with my BW. The second BM hunter had 3 BW and he didnt bother when the Heroism was popped. And i used the cat that had 140 dps less dps than the Raptor. Next week i am aiming for 5.4 k
The firing rotation I used was calculated by live analysis of shot cool down times on my gear. Once last shot has been fired, its rinse and repeat until Kill Shot ignites, at which point Kill Shot is Prioritized, and fired as soon as it is up again.
Just a (very) minor point, if you're using Serpent Sting to boost Steady Shot's damage, shouldn't you fire off Arcane Shot first so you waste less Serpent Sting uptime?
Just a (very) minor point, if you're using Serpent Sting to boost Steady Shot's damage, shouldn't you fire off Arcane Shot first so you waste less Serpent Sting uptime?
Yes, Im using Serpent Sting coupled with the Glyph to increase Steady Shot damage.
Yes, I do see your point.
You are right in that it seems to loose some uptime from Serpent Sting by not firing Arcane before Serpent, however, since Arcane is an instant shot ( no delay, no casting time ) and the next shot fired is Steady, the loss of uptime we are looking at would be equivalent at the most to latency+execution time of steady shot command.
Assuming a latency of 234 Ms which is what I usually have, and taking into account that my cast time for Steady through talents, haste, etc is 1.5 seconds or less, the time that Serpent will be up and ticking without providing a boost to steady is almost unnoticeable ( around 1.7 to 1.8 seconds ).
Since you - under normal conditions, with no rapid fire, etc - cannot fire a Steady Shot faster than 1.5 seconds, the real uptime loss would be 0.2 seconds or 200Ms, this way in the 200 Ms that you "wait" before getting the first damage boost you crammed in one extra shot, filling those 200 Ms of - so to call them - "idle damage time" with useful damage from arcane.
This however, does change a bit when things like rapid fire, and other hast buffs proc which is why - if you look at the tested rotation closely - will see that the first sequence is composed of only 2 Steady Shots, whilst the second set of Steadies is composed of 3 Steady Shots, which is usually when the haste buff procs will occurr.
The tests Ive done so far also show that under 10 and 25 man raid conditions with the standard set of buffs, giving you a minimum of 25% crit chance and above 4000 AP on a hit capped condition, will produce a average of 2.400 to 2.800 DPS on any given boss, from heygan, to Maexxena, Grobulus, etc.
The only time Ive been able to produce with my poor gear anything better than 2.400 average DPS is on Patchwerk, were I reached 2.800 DPS using this method.
It is important to notice that firing a Multishot every second full rotation, has proved - allways speaking in my case - to be a decent increase in DPS in trash above the use of volley, and provided somewhat better mana efficiency. The increase while not noticeable is around 150 to 300 DPS extra per trash pack.
01/23/09, 4:36 AM
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