Beast Mastery Bible 3.0 - Page 82

Thuor · 05/12/09, 12:09 PM

Are people using Devilsaurs or Wolfs for BM spec. I am curently using a Devilsaur for all fights except Mimron( melle complaind not seeing rockets) and Yogg(I go SV for thisone since BM cant do much on crushers)

CheddarTrek · 05/15/09, 8:18 PM

Originally Posted by Bovey

That is exactly correct. The haste cap isn't a hard cap, but rather the point at which the value of Haste is diminished because it no longer applies to Steady Shot (because Steady Shot already has a cast time at or below the GCD). Haste will always add DPS because your auto shots fire more often, but the DPS increase is inferior to the increase you can get from other stats such as AP or Crit once you have reached the cap.

Right, so what is this cap? I know it's when Steady Shot reaches GCD (as you say in your post), but what is the haste rating number for BM? (For that matter, what is it for MM and SV? though I don't play those specs)

Maybe I'm missing out on something obvious, but my steady shot tooltip says 2 seconds no matter how much haste I have. For instance, right now I'm at 252 haste rating and when I tab over Steady Shot, it says 2 second cast time. When I equip more haste and go up to 309 haste it still says 2 seconds. So I am not sure how to figure out when I reach the soft cap other than having a number to go by.

The thing I am running into as a BM hunter is that I am getting a lot of new gear in Ulduar that has haste on it. If I equip all of it, I gain a ton of haste, but I'm losing out on various amounts of AP, crit, and ArP. In general, the Ulduar gear is higher ilvl than what I had before, but assuming I'm over the haste "soft" cap it might not be better. It's been my understanding that AP and crit are kickass for BM, and if I'm not mistaken ArP just got a big buff in the most recent patch (yes?), so I'm just curious what my goal for haste is so I can feel a bit more informed about which gear to use.

That said, are there "target amounts" for things like Armor Pen? Something to shoot for to get a certain % dps before going back to prioritizing AP and Crit? Should you stack Crit until 25%, then focus on AP? I thought there used to be a thread here with all this sort of stuff summarized, but for the life of me I can't find it. I also looked through the first few pages and the last few pages of this thread before posting.

As for gear, I am familiar with Cheeky's spreadsheet and I agree that it's an excellent tool for figuring out how to min/max dps and see how you compare to the theoretical dps you should be doing... but it's still nice to have numbers to look at when you are deciding whether or not to roll on gear in a 10man.

Last thing I wanted to mention is weapon speed. From what I read on this thread and from my own understanding, slower weapons are better now for BM, yes? We used to want the slightly faster ones back in BC (2.8 speed, or thereabouts, was popular), but now with all the haste effects and totems and everything else it seems like it would be easy to get "too" fast even for autoshot (cap there is 1 second? Or did I make that up?). Just curious if I'm correct about BM preferring a 3.0 weapon to a 2.8 or 2.9 these days for PvE.

Cheers
CT

TrevvyTrev · 05/15/09, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by CheddarTrek

Right, so what is this cap? I know it's when Steady Shot reaches GCD (as you say in your post), but what is the haste rating number for BM? (For that matter, what is it for MM and SV? though I don't play those specs)

Maybe I'm missing out on something obvious, but my steady shot tooltip says 2 seconds no matter how much haste I have. For instance, right now I'm at 252 haste rating and when I tab over Steady Shot, it says 2 second cast time. When I equip more haste and go up to 309 haste it still says 2 seconds. So I am not sure how to figure out when I reach the soft cap other than having a number to go by.

For BM, the number is 0. Serpent's Swiftness and Auto Shot haste (formerly quiver haste) is enough to bring Steady Shot just below 1.5 seconds. Your steady shot tooltip won't update, however. To verify it you would need to use a casting bar mod that shows the actual cast time of your abilities. But BM hunters are haste softcapped from the get go.

CheddarTrek · 05/15/09, 8:39 PM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

For BM, the number is 0. Serpent's Swiftness and Auto Shot haste (formerly quiver haste) is enough to bring Steady Shot just below 1.5 seconds. Your steady shot tooltip won't update, however. To verify it you would need to use a casting bar mod that shows the actual cast time of your abilities. But BM hunters are haste softcapped from the get go.

Interesting, ok thanks! So ideally I don't want to have any haste at all, because point for point as BM other dps stats (such as AP, Crit, AGI, ArP, and maybe INT) are going to give me more benefit.

Too bad all the damn gear has haste on it.

Any thoughts on the other points? Thank you for clearing this up though.

Iru · 05/15/09, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by CheddarTrek

That said, are there "target amounts" for things like Armor Pen? Something to shoot for to get a certain % dps before going back to prioritizing AP and Crit? Should you stack Crit until 25%, then focus on AP? I thought there used to be a thread here with all this sort of stuff summarized, but for the life of me I can't find it. I also looked through the first few pages and the last few pages of this thread before posting.

As for gear, I am familiar with Cheeky's spreadsheet and I agree that it's an excellent tool for figuring out how to min/max dps and see how you compare to the theoretical dps you should be doing... but it's still nice to have numbers to look at when you are deciding whether or not to roll on gear in a 10man.

Last thing I wanted to mention is weapon speed. From what I read on this thread and from my own understanding, slower weapons are better now for BM, yes? We used to want the slightly faster ones back in BC (2.8 speed, or thereabouts, was popular), but now with all the haste effects and totems and everything else it seems like it would be easy to get "too" fast even for autoshot (cap there is 1 second? Or did I make that up?). Just curious if I'm correct about BM preferring a 3.0 weapon to a 2.8 or 2.9 these days for PvE.

The haste questions are already answered so I'll move on to the rest.

The simple answer is no, there aren't target amounts for any stats (other than hit and even that is only because its an easy and direct DPS boost) and there hasn't been since WotLK came out so even if you could find such a post, it would be wrong. As a BM hunter, AP is generally going to be the most valuable stat as it transfers to your pet but even then there is a cross-over point where agility becomes more valuable. You can look at the Hunter stats & scaling thread for general insight on how specific stats scale but that won't give you a threshold target or cap. Hunter mechanics are too complicated for such simple measures now; the only viable answer is modelling. Which leads me to....

If you've bothered to look at Shandara's spreadsheet (Cheeky's spreadsheet has been dead since WotLK release), you should have seen that it includes a a gear planner tab that will give you a very clear idea on what items are likely to provide a net DPS increase for you. The sheet assumes a tank & spank fight but you're never going to do MORE DPS than that so its still reasonable as a general selection tool. You can also look in this thread for current BiS gear.

Weapon speed mattered in TBC because specials would clip autoshots if you didn't have the appropriate timing/macro. With autoshot unlinked from specials (as long as you're not moving when the shot timer expires, autoshot will fire), weapon speed is no longer really an issue other than as it relates to mana regen in AotV. Choose the weapon that provides the greatest DPS increase or the one that you think looks the coolest, whichever choice works for you. This is just a game after all.

BTW Signing posts==Bad

Nahiag · 05/18/09, 10:58 AM

a question that I've been having in my mind is: is it worth switching to AotB before using BW? and then switch back when it's done, if so, would it be worth to glyph for it?

last of all I direct this question on blizzard, aspect mastery... why don't you include AotB in it? hell there's even a glyph for it yet it isn't included in a talent called "aspect mastery" :P

guesses are it's worth switching but it isn't worth glyphing for it, atleast not for now.

luckylooter · 05/18/09, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Thuor

Are people using Devilsaurs or Wolfs for BM spec. I am curently using a Devilsaur for all fights except Mimron( melle complaind not seeing rockets) and Yogg(I go SV for thisone since BM cant do much on crushers)

My pet of choice for BM now that all tenacity pets have received my beloved thunderstomp. Is the Bear. First they have thunderstomp, and second is that they have a 3 target AoE Swipe attack, so essentially they get two AE's. All i can say is that once Frosty rounds them up and I pop BW things start falling down dead fast. Throw a quick Mend pet and we are ready for the next pull.

TrevvyTrev · 05/18/09, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by Nahiag

a question that I've been having in my mind is: is it worth switching to AotB before using BW? and then switch back when it's done, if so, would it be worth to glyph for it?

last of all I direct this question on blizzard, aspect mastery... why don't you include AotB in it? hell there's even a glyph for it yet it isn't included in a talent called "aspect mastery" :P

guesses are it's worth switching but it isn't worth glyphing for it, atleast not for now.

Shandara's spreadsheet can model this too. For me it shows that it's not worth it to do either one. I cannot say whether that applies to anyone else, so you'd have to test it in the spreadsheet yourself.

OmniDevil · 05/20/09, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Thuor

Are people using Devilsaurs or Wolfs for BM spec. I am curently using a Devilsaur for all fights except Mimron( melle complaind not seeing rockets) and Yogg(I go SV for thisone since BM cant do much on crushers)

I'm personally using a Wolf as BM. I love Devilsaurs, but the size and loud noises they make have made them to be a huge annoyance with my guildies. In terms of DPS, I personally haven't seen much of a difference between the two (maybe it's the spec I have on the Devilsaur). Looking at the dps meters between the two, my Wolf is pulling 2000 dps on average, depending on the fight. Devilsaur seems to be the same (sorry if that number looks weird, but I'm not sure how reliable those meters actually are. Other guildies tend to have me at 5th in dps, while others have me at 3rd).

In the end, in my opinion, I would say it would be based on your own desire. With my experience, it seems like, between the two, that's all it would be. If anyone else has some hard data for the two pets, please, let me know!

Grousey · 05/26/09, 5:46 AM

Is there a place to do a "look at my armory" post? i can't seem to see anywhere.
I any case, i don't have a lvl 80 hunter which is why i'm finding it hard to help my guildmate who does. She has pretty decent gear, Be.imba rates her well enough but for some reason she can't seem to output more than 1200 dps.

She is hit capped, made sure of that, and fully enchanted. i took her to UC training dummies to test and had her start with pet, then serpent sting (told her to make sure this is up the whole time) and then go through arcane shot, multi shot and steady shot with highest dmg priority.

There's nothing else i could think of and she still put out far less dps than she should be. Anyone got any ideas?

Armory Link if that helps.

Namoya · 05/26/09, 6:20 AM

If you'd check out the whole Hunter Forum you would see http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t52682-r...mastery_3_1_a/ (notice 3.1 > 3.0

). From reading just the first post she would see her spec and Glyphs are improvable.

Her gemming is really weak aswell (for quick reference: WotLK Gem Index) never ever gem stamina or int. Let alone sta/ap to get some weak socket bonus like Stamina.

But for your core problem (about weak DPS) you provided way too few Facts (Was that only her damage? With pet? Which Pet? Which Pet Spec? WWS?) to really help you.

Grousey · 05/26/09, 6:59 AM

i did read through that post last night before speaking to her about it.. i haven't yet had chance to make her the new glyphs. I'll speak to her on the gem subject later on as well then.

She had a pet out (one of the bores from razorfen) although i've no way to find out the spec of it until later. She uses core hound in raids and the dps is pretty much around the same. when i see her tonight i'll make a WWS of her and come back.

cheers

Mokal · 05/26/09, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by Grousey

i did read through that post last night before speaking to her about it.. i haven't yet had chance to make her the new glyphs. I'll speak to her on the gem subject later on as well then.

She had a pet out (one of the bores from razorfen) although i've no way to find out the spec of it until later. She uses core hound in raids and the dps is pretty much around the same. when i see her tonight i'll make a WWS of her and come back.

cheers

Just point her in to this site where is all the information she needs, if she cant but a little bit effort to even come here instead of making you come here and ask, i don't think she even deserves a spot in a raids if she cant even do that.

Iru · 05/26/09, 10:40 AM

Well without even looking at the details of her spec I can tell you it's wrong. With that build her pet will being experiencing continual focus starvation and as a pet is 40% of a BM hunter's damage output that's a 20-30% drop in DPS right there.

53/11/7 is going to produce far more DPS

She also desperately needs to get hit capped. Hit transfers to pets in whole integers only (e.g. 6%, 7%, 8%) and so she's currently loosing even more DPS because her pet is focused staved AND missing a lot.

She should probably also run H-UK & H-UK till [Drake-Mounted Crossbow] & [Sovereign's Belt] drop if she doesn't have easy access to Naxx/Uldar gear as easily accessed upgrades.

Finally, she should get Shandara's spreadsheet and use it to assess her current gear, talents, pet and shot rotation to tweak things appropriately. It's also a great way of figuring out what gear is going to have the most affect on her DPS.

Grousey · 05/26/09, 3:23 PM

Iru thanks.. i've given her that talent spec (changed 3 points from lethal shots to focussed aim to keep her hit capped improved gear) and made her use the cross bow which she's had for a while. I've also made her use her corehound with a better dps talent build..

Re-gemmed her and now she puts out 1500-1700 on the heroic training dummy with only her own buffs so i'm happy.

Mokal: Not everyone understands this stuff.. i came here because i do and can explain it to her a bit easier..