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Old 10/28/08, 12:08 PM   #121
Mattaos
Piston Honda
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Devilbus View Post
this is the build I was considering


Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I suggest doing a little more researching of not only this thread, but the WotLK A&T thread. This information is readily available with justification, testing and reasoning behind the commonly used raid builds.

A long time ago during TBC raiding 4/5 Frenzy was proven to be a sufficient amount to keep 100% up time. Having 1 point in Animal Handler is also odd. I am not sure if you are factoring in the possibility due to the upcoming change giving expertise or you are not aware of the transference of hit to our pets recently added in 3.0. Either way, only having 1 point in Animal Handler is not offering the full potential to your pets DPS. Post-3.0, 2% hit > 1% hit and now with the upcoming change 10 expertise > 5 expertise. 3/3 Longevity was/is a good DPS boost, but 1/3 Long and 3/3 Cobra Strikes has shown to be the better DPS combo.

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Old 10/28/08, 12:14 PM   #122
Greenpiggy
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Tauren Hunter
 
Daggerspine (EU)
Originally Posted by Mattaos View Post
But, the [Black Bow of the Betrayer] did have an advantage over the badge bow and Bristleblitz Bow when considering normalized raid Replenishment (no JoW bug) and factoring AotV uptime due to the mana return bonus that the bow provides. In fact, I have my [Black Bow of the Betrayer] macro'd to swap-in during AotV and a separate macro to swap my Twins Bow back when I re-activate AotH. The mechanic of that bow to return mana on every successful hit is extremely strong during AotV up time and I suspect it to be useful even in early stages of level 80 raiding (PoV subject to change upon testing at level 80).
Why would you do that?
Lets make the assumption that you delay your viper shooting by 1 global CD by switching weapons, that means you just lost 400 mana(at least at my current viper levels) - meaning you would have to shoot 50 shots in viper to make up that shortfall - doesn't seem likely with say..8k mana pool(20shots)
Thats not to mention the fact that you're doing less damage with that bow(albeit half less damage) and that you lose another GCD to switch back after and it seems a bit of a loss.
Is there another reason like the proc triggering viper regen or something?

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Old 10/28/08, 12:24 PM   #123
mako
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
<Bad>
Dragonmaw
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Why would you do that?
Lets make the assumption that you delay your viper shooting by 1 global CD by switching weapons, that means you just lost 400 mana(at least at my current viper levels) - meaning you would have to shoot 50 shots in viper to make up that shortfall - doesn't seem likely with say..8k mana pool(20shots)
Thats not to mention the fact that you're doing less damage with that bow(albeit half less damage) and that you lose another GCD to switch back after and it seems a bit of a loss.
Is there another reason like the proc triggering viper regen or something?
I can assure you that BBotB's proc doesn't trigger additional viper ticks.

It doesn't seem worthwhile to use the bow as a switch weapon at all, since you're going to be getting it's 8 mana/shot regardless of if you're in viper, hawk, or something else. Two GCD's spent on swapping would be better spent to get one extra shot in during viper, and switch back to hawk one GCD earlier. It's essentially ~40mp5 as long as you're attacking with auto/steady, and your aspect won't change how effective it is.

I'm inclined to say you either use BBotB, or you don't. There's not really an inbetween, and if you've got a twins bow, you shouldn't need black bow for pve at all.

It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
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Old 10/28/08, 12:46 PM   #124
Mattaos
Piston Honda
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Why would you do that?
Lets make the assumption that you delay your viper shooting by 1 global CD by switching weapons, that means you just lost 400 mana(at least at my current viper levels) - meaning you would have to shoot 50 shots in viper to make up that shortfall - doesn't seem likely with say..8k mana pool(20shots)
Thats not to mention the fact that you're doing less damage with that bow(albeit half less damage) and that you lose another GCD to switch back after and it seems a bit of a loss.
Is there another reason like the proc triggering viper regen or something?
If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying the there is a GCD used for the Aspect switch and a GCD spent for the weapon swap, right? Honestly, I have not seen a GCD initiated for the weapon swap, but I wasn't looking for it either (will check tonight). The proc from the BBotB is additive to the viper tick, so it is an extra 8 mana per shot. The DPS difference between the Twins bow and the BBotB is 1.5 dps (using the tooltip DPS of both bows). Using simple numbers, if the current AotV gives back say 350 mana/shot and it is used at oom with a 8000 mana pool, it would take 23 shots to fill that mana pool. The extra tick from the BBotB would eliminate 1-2 additional shots required to fill up the same 8000 mana pool. The difference in DPS is not great enough to make a huge difference, but of course one could argue the stat gain from the Twins Bow would reduce the 1.5 DPS difference even more. The point is to get out of AotV as fast as possible, correct?

The swap seems to be instant, but I re-test it again tonight to see if an additional GCD is applied for the swap itself. also note that come next patch Aspects are being taken off the GCD. On paper the extra mana returned just made sense. And, I will admit that using this same macro beyond low level 70s is a stretch.

EDIT: Ok, I took a few minutes to research the GCD/weapon swap piece and it does, in fact, incur a GCD in combat. When I devised this weapon swap macro I did not factor in a GCD, which is essentially negating the that extra shot being saved by using the BBotB. Point taken and thank you for the insight. Just for my own sake, I still plan on doing an active test with this macro, but looking at this on paper factoring the GCD charge the results are not going to be nearly as great as I initially considered.

Last edited by Mattaos : 10/28/08 at 12:55 PM.

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Old 10/28/08, 12:53 PM   #125
Difool
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Llane
Originally Posted by Mattaos View Post
I think any raid worthy spec is worth exploration. Can you link a WWS report if available? I am curious to see how your pet did with all things (raid buffs & conditions) considered.
Sure - here are 4 - just don't laugh too much - we are not a 1337 bunch. The first two are the first raids we did after the patch and no one understood what was going on.... the second one was fun as we AoE pulled everything. On these ones I'm running 51/10/0 (Armory is borked and is still reporting my old spec). Using an owl.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

The second two are after we have things a little more straigtened out. I'm 50/11/0 and using a cat. The third one was a mess for me because I'd just reinstalled the application from an old image just before the raid and didn't noitice that it rolled back ALL my macros until after the raid, so there will be some funny stuff there from some unknown point in time (given the number of arcane shots, probably from a PvP time).
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

I'm still an armature and reading into these. Any insights would be appreciated. For other hunters Kheer is MM spec, Mable is BM, but with literally her old 2.4 talent tree. Purujit is something like 46/15/0. None of the four runs is the same content.

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Old 10/28/08, 1:03 PM   #126
mako
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
<Bad>
Dragonmaw
Black Bow of the Betrayer

Mattos, I think you've made an error in math as far as the value of the regen from black bow.

If each shot in viper is giving 350 mana, you would need to fire ~43 shots with Black Bow to effectively gain the mana equivalent of a "free tick". With an 8k mana pool, you need 22.85 shots to go from 0 to full without bbotb, and 22.35 shots if you were using it. In either case, it would be more practical to stop at the 22nd shot and switch to Hawk, since there would be wasted regen (and thus lost dps) if you waited until you reached 100%.

Realistically, with replenishment and JoW active, a hunter shouldn't need even 22 shots to regain 8000 mana.

It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US
www.damnwesuck.com
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Old 10/28/08, 1:21 PM   #127
HellyardsOwn
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by Difool View Post
I'm not rehashing the 51/10 vs 50/11 thing. The latter is clearly the better raid DPS spec, especially in the current build, and happens to be my current spec. I'm just pointing out the 51/10 with a cunning pet is a nice match, and really isn't too far behind in dps for raiding.
hehe why not? I mean, nobody here should be looking to jump down your throat and flame you for your ideas and theorycraft hehe. its definitely something I still feel is worth testing.

I still hop on beta to do only one thing. compare 51/20, 55/16, and various 51BM specs against 50/21. I think 51 pt. BM needs a buff, not because it sucks altogether, but because it's up against go for the throat at 70, and readiness at 80 lol. that's a tough match imo.

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Old 10/28/08, 1:22 PM   #128
Mattaos
Piston Honda
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Difool View Post
Sure - here are 4 - just don't laugh too much - we are not a 1337 bunch. The first two are the first raids we did after the patch and no one understood what was going on.... the second one was fun as we AoE pulled everything. On these ones I'm running 51/10/0 (Armory is borked and is still reporting my old spec). Using an owl.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

The second two are after we have things a little more straigtened out. I'm 50/11/0 and using a cat. The third one was a mess for me because I'd just reinstalled the application from an old image just before the raid and didn't noitice that it rolled back ALL my macros until after the raid, so there will be some funny stuff there from some unknown point in time (given the number of arcane shots, probably from a PvP time).
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

I'm still an armature and reading into these. Any insights would be appreciated. For other hunters Kheer is MM spec, Mable is BM, but with literally her old 2.4 talent tree. Purujit is something like 46/15/0. None of the four runs is the same content.
Something that jumps out at me immediately using a Cunning pet w/o GFTT is Owl Focus is a a 30% chance for only 1 free focused attack, which would have a high probability of being a Claw (Bite or Smack) since there is not GFTT present to provide added focus surplus. Of course, with the OF proc a free Claw would transfer the saved focus to follow up with its special attack freely (in theory). Basically, is this 30% chance enough to off-set A.) a consistent surplus of focus for the pet to pull from after every GCD? and B.) is a 30% chance reliable enough to justify losing the extra crit chance of a ferocity pet?

Spec would be big consideration in this too. Cobra Strikes is activated solely off pet crits and Owl Focus does not grant a crit, but just a free attack. This is apparent regardless of having GFTT or not.

Another thing that concerns me is the DPS difference in having the 2/2 Animal Handler for 10 expertise reducing the chance for a target to dodge by 2.5% and Wolverine Bite being reliant on dodges to proc. vs. skipping Animal Handler just to increase WB's proc rate.

The Cunning tree has interesting talents, but it all seems more geared towards PvP than raiding.

EDIT: Response to Mako.

Mattos, I think you've made an error in math as far as the value of the regen from black bow.

If each shot in viper is giving 350 mana, you would need to fire ~43 shots with Black Bow to effectively gain the mana equivalent of a "free tick". With an 8k mana pool, you need 22.85 shots to go from 0 to full without bbotb, and 22.35 shots if you were using it. In either case, it would be more practical to stop at the 22nd shot and switch to Hawk, since there would be wasted regen (and thus lost dps) if you waited until you reached 100%.

Realistically, with replenishment and JoW active, a hunter shouldn't need even 22 shots to regain 8000 mana.
Mako, you are absolutely correct. Having the time to actually account for all factors that are involved in making a swap out and the true mechanics behind AotV...I would say I butchered the math I used to justify the macro I suggested. I realized I was also not considering the mana cost to fire each shot. In my defense, the idea came to me on a whim after finding my BBotB in the bank the other day and I did not take the time to actually test or consult with others prior to implementing what I thought was a "great idea." My apologizes.

Last edited by Mattaos : 10/28/08 at 1:32 PM. Reason: Additonal Response to Another Post

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Old 10/28/08, 1:37 PM   #129
Difool
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Llane
Good point on Wolverine Bite. I did watch that on the pet bar, and in the current patch it proced prettly regularly. In was on cooldown more than not, but I don plan to spec back into animal handler after the next patch.

I agree that owl's focus and feeding frenzy don't make up for the crit rating on paper. What I couldn't show you was my testing with 55/10/0 between the cat and owl. Because the cat was focus gimped (especially outside of a raid) the two were almost statistically comparable.

I'd offer to provide better WWS reports (and comparable ones) after 3.0.3, but it looks like there will be very little time before WotLK and I doubt there will be many raiding ops.

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Old 10/28/08, 6:26 PM   #130
nedm
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Hyjal
I was just checking out the new spreadsheet, and it shows wolves being higher than cats dps wise? Is this correct?

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Old 10/28/08, 10:04 PM   #131
sihyunie
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by nedm View Post
I was just checking out the new spreadsheet, and it shows wolves being higher than cats dps wise? Is this correct?
I can't remember, but the spreadsheet might already have nerfed rake (can someone confirm this?)
Other than that, I don't see how wolves can do higher dps, when their pet family skill doesn't stack with BoM or BShout, while rake is a dps skill.

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Old 10/29/08, 12:14 AM   #132
KraxisSingular
Banned
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Mattaos View Post
Armor Pen is still going to be a desired stat once the next patch is released. Bosses are getting a armor buff of 10% increasing the value of ArP slightly beyond what an acceptable limit is currently. Obviously, ArP is useless in a raid after the point where a targets armor is reduced to 0. Now, we have more armor to penetrate and ArP will need to be re-visited to determine a soft cap % based on average boss (and/or mob) armor.
Sorry for linking back a page here...

I have to disagree with ArP becoming in vogue again. It remains an unavoidable stat, so there are many items that are the best for you at the given that are just not optimally itemized with ArP.
The reason ArP is bad isn't that the armor is low on bosses, or even that it is only applied aftyer Sunders and stuff, but the simple fact that all three specs put out so much damage that isn't affected by it. BM = 40-50% pet, MM = Chimera + sting + pet, Surv = Explosive + sting + pet. So ArP really doesn't scale very well with our damage because of the limited impact it has. Bosses would need way more than 10% more armor for it to be effective enough.

It is a stat we will have to live with though, but gearing directly for it seems to be a path down Trouble Lane at this time. Much like Haste for BM Hunters.

Regarding Wolverine Bite and Animal Handler granting Expertise. I have to agree at this time that they don't mix very well unless you have extra pet talents to throw around. If we assume the target will dodge 2.5% of the attacks with Animal Handler, then a fully hasted pet attacks around 11.63 times in the span of the cooldown of Wolverine Bite and does 6.67 specials (I still ahven't seen any conclusive evidence for the 1.25 sec GCD for pets). That's not that many attacks and given the dodge our pet has a chance to WB within the cooldown of less than 50%. Wolverine Bite alone should be enough to near eliminate dodge of a target (dodgestreaks are of course possible), unless it is especially high in dodge. And depending on the power of WB you might even want enough dodges for it to proc (is it better than the melee swing + normal special?).

Regarding Owls Focus... Well it is essentially a 30% reduction of focuscosts. Though we all know it doesn't work like that. It can proc when you don't need it and forget to proc when you need it a lot. And the really problematic stuff is that it mainly procs after your pet has spent focus (or had another Owl's Focus proc), so it needs focus to get it to work.
But if we calculate it as a 30% reduction is costs and the pet uses the 1.5 GCD, then the FPS of the pet is only 11.67 which can be covered by Bestial Discipine alone (12.25 FPS). So a Cunning pet is at this time the best option for level 70 51/20/0 pets. But the reality is that Owl's Focus isn't anywhere near enough to keep focus starvation away, and when that happens the value of OF falls off sharply.

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Old 10/29/08, 3:35 AM   #133
Nandei
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by nedm View Post
I was just checking out the new spreadsheet, and it shows wolves being higher than cats dps wise? Is this correct?
Make sure you changed the focus dump ability the pet uses. Wolf has bite, but cat has claw, so if you leave bite in the list of abilities used, it does no dps at all for the cat.

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Old 10/29/08, 9:08 AM   #134
KraxisSingular
Banned
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Runetotem (EU)
Just did three tests to test the pet GCD issue. I wanted to confirm or deny the 1.25 GCD issue.

And I can confirm it.
First test was my Wasp and it performed 94 specials over 2 minutes, two short of the optimal number for 2 minutes.
Then I tested my Cat, and it did 92 specials.
And finally I tested my Cat again, this time without Rake to see if it was perhaps racials that were out of the ordinary, and there it did 88 specials. The reason for the lower count of Claws for this test is because I have macroed Rake and Claw for a priority to Rake, so whenever I don't spam the specials won't fire. This is of course only temporary until the change in pet special priorities.

If the pet had used a normal 1.5 second GCD then I should have seen 80 specials or less. This naturally affects my spec for 1/2 GftT in some degree. I did see what was close to focus starvation a few times (kept careful attention to it to make sure a possible starvation wouldn't skew the results), which obviously comes from the faster specials along with critdroughts. A 30% crit apparently is only just able to keep the pet supplied at this time. Next build might see a little better results because of the cheaper racials.

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Old 10/29/08, 10:11 AM   #135
Ulfang
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Uldaman
Last night during our Supremus fight, it occured to me how important positioning is now that buffs are raid wide. Simple concept but when we came out of the kite phase and I noticed I only had half the buffs I had earlier, it only took moving 10 yards to the left and bam full buffs again. This will be the single largest dps gain for many people - make sure you know where your shaman totems and feral druid are.

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