I am pretty sure you need to get into the 51 point talents in either tree for you to see comparable dps, and in the case of survival, you will only see it in the ptr or after the patch since Explosive Shot is being changed.
With MM, you will also have to find a rotation that works for you, and you will need to decide if you spec into arcane or aimed (I have read a few times that arcane will have it's mana cost reduced, so that may influence your decision).
I would say that for BM hunter hit > AP > crit > agi > int > haste > armor penetration. As for Armor Pen versus AP/crit - always take AP/crit.
Whereas I would take Armour Penetration over Haste as BM anyday, since it effects both SS and AS, as oppossed to AS - I'd also make Agi > Crit - since it give both AP + Crit.
The problem Osakaa is that things aren't as simple as they used to be - neither Krempin or I are "right" it depends on our gear and raid make up. For eg - if you are low on Crit and starving your pet of focus it might be worth upping it and the expensive of straight AP and so on.
You can do OK with "rules of thumb" but to "theorycraft" your Max DPS it's going to be spreadsheet time...
Whereas I would take Armour Penetration over Haste as BM anyday, since it effects both SS and AS, as oppossed to AS - I'd also make Agi > Crit - since it give both AP + Crit.
The problem Osakaa is that things aren't as simple as they used to be - neither Krempin or I are "right" it depends on our gear and raid make up. For eg - if you are low on Crit and starving your pet of focus it might be worth upping it and the expensive of straight AP and so on.
You can do OK with "rules of thumb" but to "theorycraft" your Max DPS it's going to be spreadsheet time...
Thanks for the replies, guys!
The thing is with Agi, is that I think it's not really worth to gem or enchant Agi over ap/crit because of the increased amount of Agi you now need for 1% crit as lvl 80. This is why I also have +50 AP on my dual wield weapons and +110 AP on Wraith Spear. On base item stats, I suppose I should make Agility a bigger priority than pure crit rating.
Thanks Krempin of reminding me about Int, I didn't remember Careful Aim is 100% Int->AP conversion now. I had my hunter on hiatus for the whole of TBC.
I guess I'll just focus on the "main stats" and smile when I get some Armor Pen (or Haste) as a bonus.
There are (currently) no equivalent Agi Enchants for the AP ones, as there were in TBC.
This leads a number of us to believe that Blizzard are pushing towards favouring AP over Agi in general. Even Survival is less fussed about pure AP now that EW is personal not raid-wide.
The thing is with Agi, is that I think it's not really worth to gem or enchant Agi over ap/crit because of the increased amount of Agi you now need for 1% crit as lvl 80. This is why I also have +50 AP on my dual wield weapons and +110 AP on Wraith Spear. On base item stats, I suppose I should make Agility a bigger priority than pure crit rating.
Thanks Krempin of reminding me about Int, I didn't remember Careful Aim is 100% Int->AP conversion now. I had my hunter on hiatus for the whole of TBC.
I guess I'll just focus on the "main stats" and smile when I get some Armor Pen (or Haste) as a bonus.
Maybe I should have been paying more attention... because im at 1200agi and almost 4k ap with dragonhawk. It worth re-gemming for AP over my 4 +16 agi gems at this point? Was BM for so long (have been SV since just after 3.0 came out) that just kept with 'zomg agi > *' mentality ever since.
Edit: Well, I know the answer to this... the spreadsheet. Need to get Office back on my computer at home
Everytime I've checked the spreadsheet for survival, agil has come out ahead of AP. In fact the 35 agil enchant beats the 85 AP enchant according to the spreadsheet for my gear and raid buffs, and is only slightly behind the 110 AP. I'm surprised your results would be so different.
Quick question. How worth it is our 4 piece bonus. I have it using some Heroes' gear but I have some better gear I can use and still keep 2 piece. I'm pretty sure the spread sheet doesn't take the 4 piece bonus into play
Ok I actually kinda tested this on my own but I was curious for input.... I tested on a dummy both with, and without 4 piece bonus and these were my results. I only shot Steady Shot and Auto Shot while in viper, I probably should have done serpent too now that I think of it to make it more realistic.
Time from approx. 0 mana to full with 4 piece - ~29 seconds
Time from approx. 0 mana to full without 4 piece ~32-33 seconds
So assuming you're in Viper from 0 mana to full mana (I have 11k mana) this will save you 2 GCDs while in Viper?
This is just what I thought to test, anyone else want to point out something I did wrong or should have done instead? And if these results are sufficient, does this mean 4 piece bonus is pretty bad assuming you don't have mana issues?
Someone told me to check DPS in both too so a quick test and not super carefully done showed me...
DPS with 4 piece - 1441 dps
DPS without 4 piece - 1335 dps
Hello. I´ve got few questions
1) AP vs Agi Gem: are AP gems now superior to Agi gems ?
2) BM Hunter and Haste gear I played with a Rawr program a while and found out that with the best possible Equip I will still have over 250 haste rating. And since Haste affects only my autoshot, which isnt even 50% of my dmg done, wouldnt be better to get items without haste, even tho they are not that good according to Rawr or the hunter spreadsheet. As example, is [Drape of the Deadly Foe] better than [Aged Winter Cloak] ? Both are ilevel 213.
3) What trinket I should use ? atm I have the usual [Mirror of Truth] and as the second Trinket, I have the AP stacking one from Heroic Satharion [Fury of the Five Flights]. Somehow I dont think that [Fury of the Five Flights] is really the best choice.
Hello. I´ve got few questions
1) AP vs Agi Gem: are AP gems now superior to Agi gems ?
2) BM Hunter and Haste gear I played with a Rawr program a while and found out that with the best possible Equip I will still have over 250 haste rating. And since Haste affects only my autoshot, which isnt even 50% of my dmg done, wouldnt be better to get items without haste, even tho they are not that good according to Rawr or the hunter spreadsheet. As example, is [Drape of the Deadly Foe] better than [Aged Winter Cloak] ? Both are ilevel 213.
3) What trinket I should use ? atm I have the usual [Mirror of Truth] and as the second Trinket, I have the AP stacking one from Heroic Satharion [Fury of the Five Flights]. Somehow I dont think that [Fury of the Five Flights] is really the best choice.
AP gems are slightly better for BM, but it's really close. The margin is also close for MM. SV clearly favors AGI gems.
If Rawr or some other spreadsheet says those items are the best dps, it's because they have other stats in addition to the haste, and all the stats combined (including haste) add more dps than the combined stats of the other items. Haste doesn't lower your dps, so it's possible for an item to have haste on it and still be the best in slot. All it means is that those items might be better if they had something else on them to replace the haste, but it doesn't mean that you will always gain by switching to something without haste.
I'd just like to interject a little note on Rozmetal's inquiry about cloaks.
[Drape of the Deadly Foe] is actually ilevel 226, dropping from heroic KT, so budget-wise, it should be superior to the ilevel 213 [Aged Winter Cloak]. In reality, besides an increase in the useful stats, you trade armor pen for haste. As neither is particularly stellar, it could be considered a wash for BM, and an increase for MM/SV who are below the soft cap on haste.
On an average no to mid movement fights (essentially anything but 3 drake sarth), you can maintain fury of the five flights 100%, and the 320 attack power is simply better than the alternatives.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
Hopefully a simple question. I currently have 3 good trinket to use; Loatheb's Shadow, Mirror of Truth, and the JC only Emerald Boar. I've been trying to search all around as to whether I should use the boar equipped with either 2x delicate dragon's eyes or 2x bright dragon's eyes over one of the other two trinkets and if so, what gems should I get in it? The delicates will give me +54 agility with the +84 ap from the boar and the brights will give me +108ap in addition to the 84 ap from the boar.
I would have linked the items, but it errored out for some reason on me.
Top thing would be replacing the Wind Serpent for a higher DPS pet. Since there are no other hunters a Scorpid would be ideal, but if other hunters are raiding with a Scorpid occasionally, a Cat would be the second choice.
Second biggest thing would be re-gemming and enchanting more optimally, particularly to reach the hit cap without having to place points into Focused Aim. That would require 8% hit rating from gear (overcapping is better than undercapping because pets only receive their masters Hit Rating percentage as a whole number. The pet recieves a capped 8% hit from a hunter with 8.01% hit rating, but an uncapped 7% hit rating from 7.99% Hit Rating or any other 7.XX% rating.)
I see two three things wrong with this hunter's setup. The first is that he isn't hitcapped which for obvious reasons isn't optimal. I personally like to sit at around 40 under cap so I can use the hit food. The second thing is that he's using a 70 bow that's not Thoridal. I can think of no good reason for this as I was practically bombarded with good ranged weapons while leveling up. I'm sure his reasons are his own but that bow needs to go. The third thing was already touched on and is by far the biggest factor in his low damage. His pet is doing 18% of his damage. I actually needed to check to see if he was BM because that number is baffling. I didn't realize how terrible wind serpents were before seeing this parse. When I was 50/21 my pet did 45-55% of my total damage. If he were to pick up a cat or scorpid I would expect to see his damage go up by 2k dps at least.
You don't give a spec makig it harder to answer but TrevvyTrev's post two above yours provides a simplistic answer to your question
I'm BM and I guess I was a little wordy with my post. I was really asking two questions. First, should I use the boar at all? [Mirror of Truth] and [Loatheb's Shadow] by themselves are great trinkets.
However, for the life of me I can't figure out how to get the new DPS spreasheet to show me the total DPS gain of the [Figurine - Emerald Boar] with Dragon's eyes in it so I don't know whether it would be a better equip over one of the other trinkets.
okay i have a problem, and hope that one of you can help me. I'm a troll hunter, so I have the hunter bow racial, which I presume will add an additional 1% crit chance if i'm using the bow.
The two bows I'm deciding between is the drake-mounted crossbow and the Accursed bow of the Elite.
Drake Crossbow
126.9 dps
29 agi
enchant heartseeker scope
improves crit rating by 26
increases ap by 56
Accursed Bow
129.6 dps
28 agi
enchant heartseeker scope
improves haste by 21
hit by 16
ap by 40
I did a 5.5 min of auto on the heroic dummy, with 400 skills points in both Crossbow and Bow.
For Accursed: 176 shots 428.2 dps 21.6% crit
For Drake: 176 shots 433.5 dps 22.2% crit.
Considering that I have a troll racial, should I crit higher on the bow? Or perhaps my sample size is too small. I have tried with Steady, it always turns out that i can do higher dps with the Drake Crossbow. I thought perhaps the RNG on the proc rates of Cobra Strikes will make the tests unreliable, so i decided not to use them.
The Drake Mounted Crossbow has 1 more agil and 26 crit rating that the Accursed Bow does not have, so on someone without a racial bonus, it should be producing .6% more crit, which is the exact amount difference between the two tests you list. What should be expected from the racial bonus is that the bow should give you .4% more crits.
So I see a couple possibilities to explain the discrepancy:
a) there is another difference that is being missed (did you have any buffs on that wore off after one of the tests perhaps or have an item that procs crit?)
b) for some reason the troll racial is being applied to both bows and crossbows (which I have never head of before)
c) for some reason the troll racial is bugging out and is not appying to the bow
d) your sample size is too small
I expect the answer is most likely to be d. I see pretty wildly bouncing around crit numbers from fight to fight on WWS for my own damage, although I'm survival so the variables are a bit different.
One quick question, does lock and load have any internal cooldown on it? I am 2/51/18 and wondering if lock and load is worth specing.
Note that all forum rules still apply: we said simple questions, not stupid questions (which have no place on these forums). You're still expected to make a reasonable effort to find the answer yourself by searching and reading the threads and making use of spreadsheets and any other tools that may be available.
12/30/08, 7:27 AM
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