I am a SV specced hunter and I've been playing around with Zeherah's Spreadsheet online and I've noticed something odd.
I have currently have Windrunners Tunic of Conquest x2 Delicate Cardinal Rubies gives me an overall DPS of 4284.
However if I change one gem into a Brialliant King's Amber activating the socket bonus I get a total DPS 4288.
I've been gemming for pure agility in all my sockets except for one dragon's eye for haste and a nightmare tear- I'm curious if this is the correct way to go about things or if I should be trying to activate certain socket bonuses in lieu of stacking pure agility and if so I should be gemming for pure int or if I should be going to ametrines either agi/crit or agi/haste.
The spreadsheet is pretty much the final word, but a rule of thumb is that it's usually worth using an orange gem in a yellow socket, instead of a red gem, if it gets you a socket bonus. (Deadly Ametrine if you're hit-capped, Glinting if you're not.) An item with 2 yellow sockets, I'm not sure if it's right to use two orange gems, check the spreadsheet. Blue sockets, never unless required to activate a meta gem.
I have currently have Windrunners Tunic of Conquest x2 Delicate Cardinal Rubies gives me an overall DPS of 4284.
However if I change one gem into a Brialliant King's Amber activating the socket bonus I get a total DPS 4288.
4.3k-ish dps at your level gear implies that you are running the analyzer with no buffs/mob debuffs at all, which is unrealistic assuming you are trying to perform in a raid setting.
Try enabling some mana regen raid buffs and mob debuffs (or if you want a quick check, enable best raid buffs/mob debuffs). It is likely you will see that 20 agi becomes a greater DPS improvement than 20int/12AP. However, it is still very gear dependent whether you should socket an agi/(crit/haste) ametrine as opposed to a delicate cardinal ruby.
I'm trying to run some theorycrafting on the Wolverine Bite changes for next patch for BM, however to the best of my knowledge no one actually has the attack power coefficient for Wolverine Bite recorded anywhere?
Does anyone know how much attack power benefits Wolverine Bite, if at all? I assume for scaling reasons it has a coefficient of some sort much like any pet ability, but none is listed on WoWWiki and googling pulls up nada.
Annotated:
Attack power does very, very little for wolverine bite's damage, and it therefore does not and will not do enough damage to overcome the DPS gap between cunning and ferocity.
This may not be a question that has a simple answer. A guild master of a respectable guild told me that the synergy between the Tank and any DPS has changed so that the dps can not out threat the tank. It left me scratching my head, as he was telling me to not worry about threat and burn away. Even though Omen was singing like a canary. Can someone explain what he means by this? I can't bring myself too pull the boss off the tank and wipe a raid. Therefore I have yet to continue dps when Omen clearly shows me out threating him.
A guild master of a respectable guild told me that the synergy between the Tank and any DPS has changed so that the dps can not out threat the tank. It left me scratching my head, as he was telling me to not worry about threat and burn away. Even though Omen was singing like a canary. Can someone explain what he means by this? I can't bring myself too pull the boss off the tank and wipe a raid. Therefore I have yet to continue dps when Omen clearly shows me out threating him.
I'll take a shot and assume this guild master's been around from at least the beginning of TBC where the gap between well geared tank threat generation and well geared DPS threat generation was minimal. In those days, DPS would have to pay a lot more attention to Omen and be careful of pulling aggro than in WotLK, due to numerous changes to tank threat, blessing of salvation, etc. In TBC, if a DPS got a huge string of crits seconds after the boss was pulled, it was to be expected that the DPS will pull aggro (anyone remember that video of a mage pulling on vanilla Patchwerk?). In WotLK, there's new mechanics that, if executed correctly, can allow the DPS to go all out ASAP and not pass threat on the tank.
Now, that last statement also assumed well geared tanks and well geared DPS. If your tank's gear isn't up to par, or he's not pulling off the right max threat rotation, or he doesn't get Misdirection/Tricks, then it's still possible for DPS to pull, but the gap has grown significantly larger. Almost all bosses in WotLK are tauntable; Feign Death glyph lets you dump threat more often; Omen is for all purposes 100% accurate regarding threat values (no more guesstimates based on abilities and threat tables).
Since this answer is going from simple to drawn out, I'll just say this... if you're generating more threat than your tank as a hunter, it's for several reasons. He could be undergeared, not using his abilities properly, or not getting the right buffs that help him get more threat. Hope that helped.
Last edited by Jagobah : 10/16/09 at 5:17 PM.
Reason: grammar
Ok guys I have a few simple questions yet the answers might not be so simple.
I have been looking alover the place, have tried the spreadsheet and female dwarf.com, but sill havent found a satisfactory answer.
1. People talk about moving arcane shot out of their "rotation" However if i fill this into a spreadsheet, it lowers my overall DPS. Does this solemly have to do with my level of Arp?
This gets me to the second question:
2. There is the entire Agi vs Arp debate. I found myself that theoretically i could improve my DPS. (I have Grim toll in the bank. However in practice i seem to be moving a bit too much in ulduar hardmodes and ToC hardmodes. Is that a problem other people are having as well?
Hopefully someone could shed a light on this for me.
1. It's quite likelythat your main culprit here is the low ArP. You could try replacing Greatness for Grim Toll and the Agi gems for ArP in the spreadsheet and see the difference between the new rotations w/ and w/o Arcane Shot.
2. Due to some bad luck and recruitment problems, I haven't managed to spend nearly enough time with the hard modes, so take this comment for what it is. If you've got movement problems and you're confident that you can't use steady shot for a GCD, feel free to replace it with Arcane Shot and maybe glyph for Aimed Shot for more instants. It usually feels like the best solution for movement problems. However, the whole raid should be affected by the same movement problems (or at least most casters, excluding warlocks and melee, in the worst case)
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
My dps has taken a toll with the new 4 piece T9 bonus and I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong and would appreciate any input. I’ve looked through everything quite thoroughly and can’t find what I’m doing wrong. According to the spreadsheet, my dps on a target dummy with no buffs for a 2 minute duration should be:
Survival: 4832 Total dps
My dps: 4262
Pet dps: 570
As you can see from WMO, my dps is nowhere near the theoretical. My pets dps is about 40dps below its theoretical and what I don’t understand is the spreadsheet says that melee and bite should account for roughly 50% of the damage each. But there is always a 10% gap between the two on my pet with 55% going to bite and 45% going to melee. What am I doing wrong that my dps is so low?
Marksman: 5096 Total dps
My dps: 4520
Pet dps: 576
My dps is very low as MM. My pets dps as Mm is even further off according to the spreadsheet than as survival. He’s about 70dps lower than the theoretical. Also my Chimera Shot doesn’t seem to be hitting very hard.
I got rid of Rapid Fire and Kill Shot from my rotation along with readiness and recalculated attributes and redid the shot rotation. Also, my haste is so low now (196) that I can’t keep the rotation that I used to be able to and I can no longer match what the spreadsheet says I should be doing. Maybe I should get the hyperspeed accelerators instead of the pyro-rockets. I logged out with the gear and specs that I used in the testing.
Last edited by dvorjak : 10/16/09 at 7:39 PM.
Reason: Missing pertinent information
Can anyone confirm Glyph of Steady Shot bug still exist? Just tested:
SS glyph -min -average -max
hit -927 -1012 -1164
Crit -2126 -2497 -2706
Hit -933 -1011 -1132
Crit -2239 -2509 -2791
No Glyph
Hit -949 -1039 -1150
crit -2225 -2600 -2902
What's odd is crits are higher o_O maybe rng.
For more accurate results, remove any trinkets that can proc, disable Furious Howl if you have wolf pet, and use a low level ranged weapons so that min and max damage are very close to each other.
Also, I'm not entirely sure if you understand what the bug is: Steady Shot glyph serves no purpose because the benefit of that glyph (+10% Steady Shot damage when target afflicted by Serpent Sting) is present in the talent Marked for Death. Looking at your results, you can *easily* see the bug is still there: no difference in using glyph or not (I assume you had Serpent Sting on the target)
It's commonly the practice to test such things using [Screeching Bow] from Stratholme.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
It's commonly the practice to test such things using [Screeching Bow] from Stratholme.
And excellent choice if you have been farming the place and it has dropped.
If however you haven't been that lucky or you just don't want to spend a lot of time hoping it will drop, I sugesst you go to a weapon vendor (in all Alliance cities and in Undercity, no more Horde cities though) and buy Fine Light Crossbow.
I just did some pet research now that my hunter can tame exotics and saw that the Worm's Acid Spit ends up applying a -20% armor debuff. This got me to thinking; is that -20% armor reduction essentially the same as 20% armor pen? Would this 20% reduction stack with sunder or even players existing armor pen rating? (if it doesn't stack with sunder, well my guild doesn't have a warrior tank anyway. And if it doesn't stack with existing armor pen than sundering armor shouldn't either). I suppose I'll test the sunder issue out later in a PVP setting (STV/Nagrand Arena, for example). Next question would be, are bosses immune to this debuff for some reason?
The ultimate question is: Would a Worm be a viable raid pet (even though he's tenacity rather than ferocity) due to this extra 20% armor pen to the entire raid?
The debuff from the worm is the same as Sunder Armor/Expose Armor and does not stack with them. However, in a raid where you do not have a rogue or warrior, a worm can provide the debuff. Most likely, unless the raid is melee/hunter heavy (yet is somehow lacking a warrior or rogue) it won't be worth the dps loss you'd get from bringing a different pet.
I had a sneaking feeling that was the case as I couldn't be the first person to think of this. And our raids never have a warrior (10mans) and usually run physical dps heavy.
Would be an interesting thing to play around with as I wonder how much the particular hunters DPS would suffer in order to help boost the rest of the raid's armor pen an extra 20%.
Armour Penetration is not the same as Armour Reduction; suppose a boss has 10,000 armour and you have 50% Armour Penetration from gear, and a warrior in raid. First, the Armour Reduction is in effect, meaning the 10,000 Armour gets reduced by 20% so it becomes 8000. Your Armour Pen looks at this new number and reduces that by 50% to 4000.
Without Sunder Armor, your ArP would have reduced boss armour to 5000, so you can see there is a considerable difference. Either way, these two mechanics don't 'stack' but they do increase each others value.
Edit: this also means a physical dps with 100% passive ArP (pretty much impossible to reach at this point i believe, except for Arms warrior perhaps) would have zero benefit from Sunder Armor.
That is another set of numbers I was playing with in my head. I was personally wondering that if they did not "stack" than would the reduction play in first (assuming it would as it is a physical change in the targets armor) thus lessening the effect of armor pen and lowering its value per point.
But I digress, assuming we do not have a warrior (as is my situation), adding this extra 20% reduction does seem to only be a situational advantage (such as a melee heavy raid).
Interesting conclusion as I got giddy when I saw a pet that could essentially work as a "free" 20% armor pen.
Is Survival still the preferred "undergeared" spec, even after the nerfs? I'd spreadsheet it, but my new hunter isn't quite 80 yet. I've been kind of wanting to try an undergeared Marks spec, but I'm not sure how well that would work out, seeing as it wasn't made viable until Ulduar gear in the first place.
Is Survival still the preferred "undergeared" spec, even after the nerfs? I'd spreadsheet it, but my new hunter isn't quite 80 yet. I've been kind of wanting to try an undergeared Marks spec, but I'm not sure how well that would work out, seeing as it wasn't made viable until Ulduar gear in the first place.
Yes survival is more friendly towards a greater range of gear. Test all yourself.
I had a couple questions, both sorta related to each other:
1. What would the most realistic fight length i could enter in the spreadsheet? I set it at 9 minutes, but few fights last that long. I just wanted some input on what other people use in their calculations.
2. Would it be prudent to take Aimed/Multi Shot out of my rotation? Right now i spec 6/14/51, so I use multi in place of aimed shot. But the spreadsheet gives me a little bump in damage if i just remove it from my rotation; I cant reproduce the results on a dummy really since I dont have raid buffs but it was an option i was looking at.
I was told that my shot rotation should consist of Hunters mark>Serp>Chim>Arcane>Aimed/Multi>Silent>Steadyx3. I'm playing around with a few rotations and it makes sence as to have Silent as a filler, to cut down on the Steady spam But I would honsestly like to know the real deal, and how that one shot can take away or add to my current dmg. Thx in advance.
..it makes sence as to have Silent as a filler, to cut down on the Steady spam
You dont use silencing shot that way. Its not on global cooldown, meaning you can macro it into your other shots, and it will fire silencing shot everytime it gets off cooldown, and not interupt your rotation in any way.
Doing this gives me 2% more total damage/dps, 1 talent point well spent.
Dont know how familiar you are with theese macros, but its basicly like this: #showtooltip Chimera Shot
/cast Silencing Shot
/cast Chimera Shot
This is for chimera, as im sure you see. You will have to make similar for SrS, SS, ArS and the other shots/stings you use. And if your not already doing it, put Kill Command in there aswell.
Im not sure if this was asked but im asking anyway. Does any hunter know why our tier 9-9.5 is so geared towards BM hunter and when i say that im commenting on the lack of agility and stack of AP, when have we ever wanted AP over AGI for anything but BM? One other thing i wasx wondering is i just changed out my 8.5 helm for the ony 25 helm and my 8.5 chest for my 9.25 chest do you think that was a good trade im so confused right now with the new gear and the stats on it i so wish cataclysm would come sooner and get rid of these stat problems lol. Im sure its all just me ranting but if anyone has idea's it would be great and im aware of the spreadsheet but dont understand it.
This may not be a question that has a simple answer. A guild master of a respectable guild told me that the synergy between the Tank and any DPS has changed so that the dps can not out threat the tank. It left me scratching my head, as he was telling me to not worry about threat and burn away. Even though Omen was singing like a canary. Can someone explain what he means by this? I can't bring myself too pull the boss off the tank and wipe a raid. Therefore I have yet to continue dps when Omen clearly shows me out threating him.
There are two situations:
* Burst threat - threat at the beginning of a fight before a tank has fully established a threat lead and gotten all appropriate buffs/debuffs established
* Sustained threat - threat in the middle of a fight
At the beginning of a fight, it is very easy to pull off a tank. Almost any class can do it. So we'll assume that is not what he's referring to.
In the middle of a fight, you'd have to (as a hunter) climb to roughly 130% of his threat before you'd pull off him. This is still possible to do, but not very easy (generating 1.3x the threat of a tank). Usually a single feign death (or soul shatter or ice block) in the middle of a fight is all that it will take to put yourself so far behind you'll never catch back up again. Also, threat generation differs from class to class. On my hunter, I find it difficult to out-threat Prot Paladins, but not too difficult to out-threat warriors or DKs.
When I'm playing my feral druid, it is a very different story. As melee, I only need to exceed 110% of threat to pull aggro. Without much in the way of additional anti-threat talents, I generate a *lot* of threat, particularly when focusing on a single target. And I have no feasible threat reduction tools. If the tank doesn't considerably out-gear me, I *will* pull aggro eventually.
I'd suggest:
a. Use MD at the beginning of the fight and make sure that you give the tank a few seconds to fully establish threat before opening up.
b. Allow yourself to climb to 100% or so of the tank's threat before FD'ing once.
c. After the single FD (assuming it was 30 secs or more into the fight), you really shouldn't need to FD again if your tank is competent.
d. Many fights involve threat resets. Treat those like the beginning of the fight (MD, light dps for a few secs, FD at 100%)
As to his original point, that it isn't possible to out-threat tanks? He's full of it.
10/15/09, 12:42 PM
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