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Old 09/16/09, 12:12 PM   #2146
Argg0
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Hunter
 
Warsong
ArP MM is more mobile than an Arcane MM.

Arcane will never be on CD for the ArP build, so, whenever you need to move you can shoot it if the other two instants are on CD, while on the Arcane MM build it will frequently be on CD.

About the target switching... both MM suffer... so, I see no reason not to go to ArP.

Gemming however, I don't recommend unless you can achiev really high %s, like 80%+.

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Old 09/16/09, 12:22 PM   #2147
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by snail View Post
I currently do not subscribe to the focused armor-pen philosophy for my hunter. I realize on a static mob with full debuffs it is easily the most effective method of maximizing dps, but for my play-style I find it detrimental on any fight requiring mobility or frequent target changes -- at least at my current gear level and options.

The question I had relates directly to armor penetration however. At what point of passive armor penetration (I suppose based on the PTR data rather than live) does it become more effective to ignore arcane shot and its respective talents and place those 3 points into talents such as improved barrage or improved steady shot?

Per the spreadsheet I'm finding that even with my paltry 350ish armor penetration rating and unusual spec (HM hunter for our raids) I may find a dps increase by dropping arcane shot from my shot selections and using 3 points in imp. steady shot or imp. barrage instead.
I was originally writing this response as a private message, but decided to post it in the thread instead since it may have value to others.

The answer to your question does not only have to do with ArP (although that is a factor). It does not take much ArP at all to make the switch worthwhile. How much depends on a lot of other factors due to cross-coupling of stat effects so it is not worthwhile to quantify a number.

In addition to ArP, what I find to be a another discriminating factor on whether to drop IAS and switch to the ArP rotation is your crit rate. Since 3.1 and the introduction of Piercing Shots, crit rate has become more important for MM hunters. If your crit rate is high enough (which yours is more than high enough at over 50% unbuffed), then it pays to drop ArS and use an extra SS since it procs PS and ArS doesn't.

Other benefits of this change include:
1) A slight mana savings since Master Marksman reduces the cost of SS but not ArS
2) If you move the points in IAS into IB, it will greatly increase your AiS damage as well as your AoE damage
3) Easier and more consistent rotation to implement since it is always CS->AiS->SSx4

Here is a comparison with your current spec and the priority rotation on the left and the updated spec and ArP rotation on the right:

ArS: 5109 / 4443
SS: 4768 / 4768
AiS: 7199 / 8050
DPS: 8070 / 8112

This is a 42 increase in DPS with the 337 ArP you currently have. The SS that replaces your old ArS does do about 340 less damage (510 if you average 1.5 ArS per old rotation) but your AiS does about 850 more damage more than making up for that difference. Plus, as your ArP/crit % increases, the difference will become even larger.

Of course, you will still need to use ArS on certain fights like Hodir and Vezax where magic damage is buffed. In addition, when moving and having no other instant cast shots available, you will want to use ArS too, but even in these movement fights that you are concerned about, the loss in damage in ArS by losing IAS is made up for by having those points in IB buffing your AiS instead (with assuming a single ArS per rotation).

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Old 09/17/09, 9:28 PM   #2148
Iru
Don Flamenco
 
Iru's Avatar
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Muradin
IMH bug still exist?

Has anyone done any testing to see whether it's still possible to overwrite an IMH or a glyph'd mark with a regular Hunter's Mark? I remember the bug being reported but can't find any follow up posts about its being fixed.

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Old 09/17/09, 10:02 PM   #2149
arlen
Piston Honda
 
arlen's Avatar
 
Tauren Paladin
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Iru View Post
Has anyone done any testing to see whether it's still possible to overwrite an IMH or a glyph'd mark with a regular Hunter's Mark? I remember the bug being reported but can't find any follow up posts about its being fixed.
There was a blue response to the bug post stating that it was working as intended, so blizzard doesn't consider a weaker mark overwriting an improved mark to be a 'bug'.

Edit: Here's a link to the response from Blizzard, World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [Bug] Hunter's Mark being overwritten 3.1.3

Last edited by arlen : 09/17/09 at 10:08 PM.

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Old 09/17/09, 11:27 PM   #2150
sluggs
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Area 52
I have a few questions about whether or not im getting the most out of my dps. should i be using wrathstone or switch back to using grim toll (thorim wont drop runestone) For me I'm using serpent, steady and chimera glyphs just curious if any of the other glyphs out there are better for mm i know serpent is best one and i hear steady is a bit bugged or something?

And is my gear good enough to drop arcane shot out of my rotation for an extra steady shot. (yes i know my melee weapon sucks general wont drop lotrafren and anub hasnt dropped archons yet) plan on getting belt from anub arak so i dont need focused aim anymore.

Last question would replacing wrathstone with deaths verdict be a good combo using deaths verdict and greatness and do the agi boost stack with each other? dont have deaths verdict atm also.

Last edited by sluggs : 09/17/09 at 11:32 PM.

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Old 09/18/09, 5:15 AM   #2151
Starichok
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Hey, well just for starters, yes changing Grim toll for Wrathstone is probably a good idea since the proc from Grim toll is very good for MM hunters. (runestone of course being better)
The glyphs are quite good, I use the same ones, you can choose to switch to Kill Shot though, your choice.
The bug of Steady Shot to my knowledge was that the extra damage from glyph worked even when the target didnt have serpent sting applied.

Just forgetting the incoming 3.22 nerf I'd suggest regreming ArP (for now at least) and try hit ~600 ArP (without the proc) then you can drop Arcane Shot form your rotationt or at the very least not use it on the steady fights (where not a lot of movement is required)

Focusd Aim imo should be taken if you are dropping Arcane Shot - where else do you plan to use the extra 2-3 points? its either ArS or Focused Aim.

Death's Virdict is one of the best trinkets, a great setup would be that and runestone (thorim trinket)

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Old 09/18/09, 7:15 AM   #2152
Pijn
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Doomhammer (EU)
Originally Posted by Starichok View Post
The bug of Steady Shot to my knowledge was that the extra damage from glyph worked even when the target didnt have serpent sting applied.
No, it is the other way around; the glyph itself serves no purpose, since the 10% extra damage of Steady Shot works when your target is afflicted by your Serpent Sting anyway, regardless of having the glyph or not (provided you are MM specced of course, more specifically: Marked for Death).

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Old 09/18/09, 10:27 AM   #2153
autoshootafk
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Darkspear
Not sure if this is the right section as I am kind of new, but I will try my best not to break the rules here.

I tried going to the Spreadsheet but the problem was that I could not locate the particular item to configure my numbers.

I recently got my 2 piece T9 (i245) with helm and gloves, however last night ([Sunreaver Assassin's Gloves]) dropped and with no rogues in the raid it went to me.

According to hunterloot.com I should see a ~30 dps increase from equipping these (not sure how accurate this is), but this does not take the 2 piece set bonus into account. Should I go ahead and already break the 2 piece or wait until I obtain a 3rd piece of T9 so I can keep the set bonus before going to these gloves?

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Old 09/18/09, 1:06 PM   #2154
Gonkish
Soda Popinski
 
Gonkish's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Break the set bonus. The set gloves are terrible compared to those. You should try to get either the set legs, helm, or BP for your two piece bonus. The four piece bonus is basically garbage and can be safely ignored.

How can you help?
I can shoot things and then make my pet move toward them.

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Old 09/18/09, 3:14 PM   #2155
KraxisSingular
Banned
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Runetotem (EU)
The set gloves are not terribly great, no. But their relative weakness is more than made up for by the bonus (which is rather good). I say keep the two pieces and when you get a third exchange the gloves.

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Old 09/18/09, 3:37 PM   #2156
Cranch
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Perenolde
While the heroic rogue gloves are about 50 dps better than the T9.245 gloves, using the PTR spreadsheet shows about a 65 dps drop for you with your gear due to losing the 2pc bonus. So I have to disagree with Gonkish about breaking the set bonus (when 3.2.2 comes out.)

The list I worked up for best heroic gear for MM contains 2xT9, but SV is 4xT9 and only 300 dps behind. Given my inability so far to demonstrate more dps with a MM build than a SV build in actual raids, I plan to gear both builds.

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Old 09/18/09, 4:07 PM   #2157
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by autoshootafk View Post
I recently got my 2 piece T9 (i245) with helm and gloves, however last night ([Sunreaver Assassin's Gloves]) dropped and with no rogues in the raid it went to me.
Another item to factor into the decision is the lost in int. The leather gloves reduces the mana pool by 900 and reduces my time to OOM by about 96 s. Partly because of that, they are a -15 DPS relative to the T9.245 gloves for me on a 6 min fight.

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Old 09/18/09, 6:09 PM   #2158
sluggs
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Area 52
I just wanna know what are three best glyphs for a hunter. if there is a difference between whether your arp build or not let me know.

I know serpent sting glyph is currently best one so its used for all mm hunters basically. Ive heard that steady shot glyph is bugged or that its not working fully with marked for death talent i just wanna know once and for all is steady shot glyph good or bad (not using arcane shot in my basic rotation) and what would be a third good glyph. I still see top hunters using steady shot glyph so Im not sure its its bugged or not.

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Old 09/18/09, 7:26 PM   #2159
Loneranger84
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by sluggs View Post
I just wanna know what are three best glyphs for a hunter. if there is a difference between whether your arp build or not let me know.
SS glyph not working with MFD was fixed in a previous patch.

ArPen MM build is always going to use SrS and SS glyphs.

Use the spreadsheet to determine the best final glyph as this choice is influenced by many factors.
(Possibilities: Hawk, KS, AiS, and CS.)

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Old 09/18/09, 7:53 PM   #2160
akbinhil
Glass Joe
 
Troll Hunter
 
Anub'arak
Originally Posted by Loneranger84 View Post
SS glyph not working with MFD was fixed in a previous patch.

ArPen MM build is always going to use SrS and SS glyphs.

Use the spreadsheet to determine the best final glyph as this choice is influenced by many factors.
(Possibilities: Hawk, KS, AiS, and CS.)
Yes, but it was fixed in such a way that it was broken again, and until they stealth fix it, according to testing, you don't need the SS glyph to get the bonus 10% damage if you are MM spec.

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