Marksman questions - Page 170

Shaynaynay · 01/03/10, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Pijn

Did some minor testing with 2t10 on the training dummy. It turns out that - just like with Iron Council Rune Circles, Vezax Shadowcrashes, Malygos power clouds and Thaddius charges - Serpent Sting will keep ticking for 15% more damage for the enter fight after you re apply it during a 2t10 proc. Don't have logs to verify this for you, so you would have to do this simple test yourself, but it's a nice bonus to the already amazing 2t10 bonus.

So when the t10 2 piece procs, it will take effect if you chimera shot during the 2pc t10 proc since it re-applies your serpent sting, or are you suggesting we manually apply a NEW serpent sting when we see the proc, and then chimera shot from then on will keep that NEW serpent sting (that's doing +15% more dmg) rolling?

Rezdan · 01/03/10, 10:58 PM

Yes, that's what he's suggesting and it's something I can confirm. Basically, re-apply Serpent Sting when you get your first 2pc T10 proc and you'll retain the bonus when you refresh with Chimera. This would also be the ideal time to beg for a Tricks of the Trade as this damage bonus will also be retained on Chimera refresh.

Shaynaynay · 01/06/10, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Rezdan

Yes, that's what he's suggesting and it's something I can confirm. Basically, re-apply Serpent Sting when you get your first 2pc T10 proc and you'll retain the bonus when you refresh with Chimera. This would also be the ideal time to beg for a Tricks of the Trade as this damage bonus will also be retained on Chimera refresh.

Just got 2 pieced and tested it out... i'm not sure if its just sometimes bugged or the effect isn't what we thought? On mobs, when i get 2 piece proc, i'll fire a serpent sting (to apply a new one), chimera it, and try to shoot another serpent sting, which of course it states a higher spell is already active - which is intended to what we're discussing.

Unfortunately I try the same on the bosses Festergut and Rotface, and I didn't get the same message. After applying a serpent sting after a 2 piece T10 proc, refreshing it with a chimera, i was able to shoot off another serpent sting to override, which makes me think the 2 piece T10 proc'd serpent sting isn't being carried over on bosses, but working like you stated on mobs.

Anyone else try this out on the new stuff yet?

Miya Mirage · 01/06/10, 6:42 PM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

I tested it on 3.3 PTR a few weeks before live and it was still broken. It's been broken since they put in pet expertise inheritance. If you test it on live and find it's been fixed please let me know.

I can confirm it still bugged on 3.3 live (test done on Boss Level target dummy):

acer6798 · 01/06/10, 9:11 PM

I'm curious if anyone has any strong support for or against a split rotation between chimera and Aimed shot. The rotation im thinking is a Chim/Steadyx2/Aimed/Steadyx2. The idea being that it wouldn't "waste" an Improved Steady Shot proc if say the proc landed on the first steady the other three while doing damage would not make use of the proccing mechanic.

KraxisSingular · 01/06/10, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by acer6798

I'm curious if anyone has any strong support for or against a split rotation between chimera and Aimed shot. The rotation im thinking is a Chim/Steadyx2/Aimed/Steadyx2. The idea being that it wouldn't "waste" an Improved Steady Shot proc if say the proc landed on the first steady the other three while doing damage would not make use of the proccing mechanic.

I believe that was discussed a while back and was overall considered more effective at certain gearlevels, but the spreadsheet can't model spamable abilities having a higher priority initially then cooldowned abilities. So in general it isn't something people think much about.
However, the value of this is limited. The amount of wasted procs is going to be very limited with a 'lined' sequence.

When your Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot approach each other in damage, then it is time for interleaving. Thankfully the spreadsheet can tell you this if you just remove Serpent Sting from the list and removes Imp Steady procs (by removing the talents). If one is considerably better, then prio it. If they are very close then interleave.

Tragos · 01/07/10, 2:32 PM

When the patch hit, I was pleasantly surprised with the improvement to explosive trap. It wasn't garbage anymore! I got the crazy idea of trap dancing marksmanship that would do the following

-Drop 1 point from Improved Barrage
-Drop 2 points from Rapid Recuperation
-Pick up 3/3 Trap Mastery
-Drop Glyph of Kill Shot
-Pick up Glyph of Explosive Trap (gives your explosive trap a chance to crit for 50% bonus damage)

Essentially, go from this:Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
To this:Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Calculations based on my gear and data from femaledwarf.com

Explosive Trap Rank 6
19% of base mana
Instant cast 30 sec cooldown
Place a fire trap that explodes when an enemy approaches, causing [RAP * 0.1 + 523] to [RAP * 0.1 + 671] Fire damage and burning all enemies for [900 + RAP] additional Fire damage over 20 sec to all within 10 yards. Trap will exist for 30 sec. Only one trap can be active at a time.

Average AP value: 7807 (I'm assuming traps aren't affected by Hunter's Mark)
Explosive Trap Initial Explosion:
(597+7807x0.1)=1378
x1.02 (Focused Fire)
x1.03 (3% damage buff from ret, BM, Arcane)
x1.13 (Curse of Elements)
=
1636 damage

Explosive Trap AoE Dot
(900+7807)= 8707
x1.30 (Trap Mastery)
x1.02 (Focused Fire)
x1.03 (3% damage buff from ret, BM, Arcane)
x1.13 (Curse of Elements)
 =13438 damage before crits

Crit chance:64.04%

13438x.6404x1.5+13438x(1-.6404)
 =17741 damage with crits averaged out

Total Explosive Trap Damage
1636+17741=19377 damage (which is more than a kill shot for me although my ArP is on the low side)

Is it worth Trap dancing?
Well that's where the theorycrafting gets a little tricky for me.

Theoretical DPS from femaledwarf before changes: 9476.77 DPS
DPS Loss from from dropping 1 point in Imp Barrage and 2 from Rapid Recuperation and Glyph of Kill shot: 9362.81 DPS (-113.96 DPS)

DPS gain from replacing 1 steady shot every 30 seconds with an explosive trap:

Average Explosive Trap total damage:19377
Average Steady Shot damage(including Piercing Shots): 5810

(19377-5810)/30= 452.23 DPS gain

DPS while trap dancing : 9362.81+452.23= 9 815.04 DPS
However, this doesn't take into account potential delay of auto shots

Thoughts? Am I crazy?

Edit: why is there a section where the font is huge in the middle of my post?
Edit2: I forgot to take into account the effects of Relentless Earthsiege Diamond on Explosive trap crits.

Sirael · 01/07/10, 2:53 PM

Just two things that came to my mind as I read your post Tragos.

The first thing is that your are dropping more than one Steady Shot.
If you're standing at max range, the time to run to the target is at least 3 seconds. The way back is another 1,5-2 Seconds. So even if you're standing only 10 yards away, you will drop 2 or 3 Steady Shots.

The second thing is considering mana into the calculation. You change 189 mana against 958 mana every 30 seconds.
That is 128 mp/5. And without Rapid Recuperation you're mana is dropping even faster.

Tragos · 01/07/10, 3:23 PM

Well the whole idea of my post is standing at minimum range, not maximum range so I don't see how the first part of your post applies.

As for the second point you bring up, I'm not sure how you'd calculate the effects that an increased mana use would have on dps. It's definitely a good point, though.

Btw, my idea would only apply to a few bosses where the boss doesn't move much if at all and squeezing a little extra dps is important. Festergut comes to mind.

Whitefyst · 01/07/10, 4:08 PM

Well, the mana aspect is a legitimate concern. I had thought of that myself before reading Sireal's reply.

In general, I do not think that explosive trap dancing is a good method for MM. However, there are definitely good situations for using explosive trap, including:

1) Any fight where the mob(s) are being pulled to a location where you can safely lay a trap before the start of the fight. This does not cost you any DPS to gain the DPS from the trap.

2) Bosses where it is good or required to be close. A fight like Festergut would probably be a good fight for using them since generally you have to stay close to him to avoid the slime pools and the kited ooze. However, I still wouldn't personally lay the trap off of CD. I would instead lay them down in times of opportunity when I am not shooting anyway such as when moving through him to avoid the spray or the kited ooze. Rotface on 10-man would also have opportunity if you are required to run to the spore on a melee to get innoculated (however, since you can not shoot in melee its better for others to go into the melee group). Twins could be another good option if your raid bunches up right by both twins with a few people to protect the raid from the opposidte colored orbs.

Lilyana · 01/07/10, 10:15 PM

Trapdancing is bad now since you will be wasting procs from your bow and two set bonus by losing autoshots while moving.

Pijn · 01/08/10, 5:35 AM

Originally Posted by Shaynaynay

Just got 2 pieced and tested it out... i'm not sure if its just sometimes bugged or the effect isn't what we thought? On mobs, when i get 2 piece proc, i'll fire a serpent sting (to apply a new one), chimera it, and try to shoot another serpent sting, which of course it states a higher spell is already active - which is intended to what we're discussing.

Unfortunately I try the same on the bosses Festergut and Rotface, and I didn't get the same message. After applying a serpent sting after a 2 piece T10 proc, refreshing it with a chimera, i was able to shoot off another serpent sting to override, which makes me think the 2 piece T10 proc'd serpent sting isn't being carried over on bosses, but working like you stated on mobs.

Anyone else try this out on the new stuff yet?

I had no problems with this; both on training dummy and bosses Serpent Sting kept ticking for 15% more dmg (actually 18% more dmg considering it gets affected by Culling the Wild as well). However, I didn't actually try to overwrite my buffed Serpent Sting with a normal Serpent after 2t10 proc ended (why would you?).

KraxisSingular · 01/08/10, 7:24 AM

Pijn you said something there.
Culling of the Herd, it isn't something we can be sure is up, it certainly isn't up when we engage (the usual time we pop Serpent Sting). So I'm beginning to wonder if it is worth it to either wait for it to proc, or start as usual and then reapply when CotH procs, or even just let it go (until T10-2 procs if you have it).

It is a relatively small bonus, so the fight needs to be quite long before 3% is worth more than another shot.

Pijn · 01/08/10, 7:36 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Pijn you said something there.
Culling of the Herd, it isn't something we can be sure is up, it certainly isn't up when we engage (the usual time we pop Serpent Sting). So I'm beginning to wonder if it is worth it to either wait for it to proc, or start as usual and then reapply when CotH procs, or even just let it go (until T10-2 procs if you have it).

It is a relatively small bonus, so the fight needs to be quite long before 3% is worth more than another shot.

Ah yes, thanks for correcting the name, Culling the Herd. Personally I made a Power Auras effect for both 2t10 proc (with audio) and Culling the Herd proc (without audio), and I noticed Culling the Herd has a near 100% uptime, or at least very high. Either way, I usually apply Serpent Sting right from the start anyway (after the 4 sec of MD), regardless if CtH has procced or not. When 2t10 does proc I re apply Serpent Sting and usually during this time CtH is up as well. In case 2t10 procs but CtH hasnt procced yet, I wouldn't wait for CtH to proc since you might lose the 2t10 before that happens.

Like you said, 3% is an extremely small bonus considering it only buffs Serpent Sting (and not Chimera-Serpent like I used to think) so I personally consider that just to be a small bonus, not something to wait for.

jarlelin · 01/08/10, 11:59 PM

Regarding the question about glyphs two pages back. Putricide is definitely one of those bosses where opting for Glyph of Kill Shot should be considered. The soft enrage can be pretty brutal if your raid dps is lacking.
I easily sacrifice some dps in the first two phases for more damage done in p3.