Marksman questions - Page 182

mallhoof · 03/19/10, 7:43 PM

looks to me like your steady shot usage is very low, this would account for the lower number of shots and the lower dps.

Lilbitters · 03/19/10, 8:40 PM

@ Radroit

Just looking at the overall log, one thing I quickly noticed by checking debuffs was the fact that Tyns only was Ice Tombed 5 times versus your 10 (well 9, but you were died once with Frost Beacon) so that will cut into your activity time.

Secondly, you did a lot more meleeing behind the Ice Tombs, presumably in P2, where I suspect the other hunter was standing behind one Ice Tomb to LoS the Frost Bomb while attacking the other Ice Tomb. This would definitely account for the Auto Shot increase Tyns has over you (Tyns had a total of 716 vs Radroit's 690), but really the 26 auto shot difference could be from a huge variety of things in addition to the previously mentioned Ice Tomb time. Examples would be:
Distance/time spent running out of Blistering Cold (were you over-running it in comparison to the other hunter?)
Strategy/Time spent resetting Mystic Buffet (were you sitting behind and not shooting for ~6-8 seconds, or were you already standing at the edge and strafing behind for ~1-2 second to just LoS the refresh when Mystic Buffet had only a few seconds left in duration?)
Procs and haste (Tyns used Rapid Fire 26 times vs Radroit's 11. Also Radroit had 71 Quick Shots procs vs Tyrn's 75 which was possibly due to not being in AotD as much with Radroit having a 32.8% AotV uptime vs Tyrns 5.2%)

So overall, most likely less shots were due to having been Ice Tombed more and not using Rapid Fire/Readiness/Rapid Fire on the pull and then again at the start of P3, leaving you with less than half of your possible usages for it.

One more thing I would point out is that it's a mistake to believe Arcane Shot is a DPS increase over Steady Shot in your gear. If you look at the log it'll break down like this:

Arcane Shot Average hit: 2439.3 (41 total) ~28% hits
Arcane Shot Average crit: 6061.5 (104 total) ~72% crits
--------------------------------------------------------------
Arcane Shot Average Damage Contribution: 5047.3

Steady Shot Average hit: 2314.0 (48 total) ~22% hits
Steady Shot Average crit: 5758.6 (168 total) ~78% crits
Steady Shot Average Bleed from Piercing Shots: 1727.6 ~78% Bleeds
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steady Shot Average Damage Contribution: 6348.3

That's also not taking into account that it's very possible some of the Arcane Shot damage numbers are inflated due to using Improved Steady Shot procs, which Chimera Shot or Aimed Shot would benefit from more anyways.

Also, the Rogue Victum was not using Expose Armor which was an enormous Raid DPS loss for the 2 Marksmanship hunters, himself, the Ret Paladin, and even some for the Feral Druid and Protection Paladin tanks. This would have only increased the superiority of Steady Shot over Arcane Shot even more.

MizarAlcor · 03/23/10, 12:07 PM

With DK's and shaman's 10% AP buff being changed to permanent instead of proc, has anyone tested whether /cancelaura macro for those buffs still work? I presume it won't work anymore, but I'm not 100% sure. If it doesn't work anymore, then it is probably the death of TSA glyph unless Blizzard finds a way to somehow fix it.

Goldengiff · 03/23/10, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by MizarAlcor

With DK's and shaman's 10% AP buff being changed to permanent instead of proc, has anyone tested whether /cancelaura macro for those buffs still work? I presume it won't work anymore, but I'm not 100% sure. If it doesn't work anymore, then it is probably the death of TSA glyph unless Blizzard finds a way to somehow fix it.

In a heroic with a blood DK today. The DK and the rest of the group had the Abom's Might buff, I still had TSA. Looks like it preferences auras that you provide for yourself over other people's auras.

Edit: After getting DC'd mid run and coming back in I had Abom's might and no TSA buff. Looks like it's whichever you had first.

markovicous · 03/31/10, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Goldengiff

In a heroic with a blood DK today. The DK and the rest of the group had the Abom's Might buff, I still had TSA. Looks like it preferences auras that you provide for yourself over other people's auras.

Edit: After getting DC'd mid run and coming back in I had Abom's might and no TSA buff. Looks like it's whichever you had first.

This leads to the conclusion that in most fights you would only need to /cancelaura just once since you know your TSA will never fall off.

Nakari · 03/31/10, 4:47 PM

You don't even need to do that... just re-enable TSA by clicking on it, this will overwrite Unleashed Rage / Abomination's Might.

alienangel · 03/31/10, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Nakari

You don't even need to do that... just re-enable TSA by clicking on it, this will overwrite Unleashed Rage / Abomination's Might.

This does not seem to do it, at least as far as the UI's display of active buffs is concerned. If Abom's Might got there first, it stays no matter how much I click TSA and see the TSA animation play out.

MizarAlcor · 03/31/10, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

This does not seem to do it, at least as far as the UI's display of active buffs is concerned. If Abom's Might got there first, it stays no matter how much I click TSA and see the TSA animation play out.

Yes, I can confirm this, and I'm using Blizzard's default UI to display buffs, so it's not addon-dependent. On a slightly related topic, is there any conclusive observation on whether the presence of another hunter's TSA will overwrite your own TSA, thus deactivating the glyph? Raiding regularly with 2 other hunters, each with their own TSA (for 10-man purposes), I have been shunning the TSA glyph even when Marked of Death talent was bugged.

Nakari · 03/31/10, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

This does not seem to do it, at least as far as the UI's display of active buffs is concerned. If Abom's Might got there first, it stays no matter how much I click TSA and see the TSA animation play out.

Strange.. it worked perfectly fine today with our shaman's Unleashed Rage, which was reliably overwritten everytime I activated TSA (though I don't have a Blood DK at hand to test Abomination's Might).

Jookiam · 04/04/10, 10:29 AM

The TSA "Bug" is quite frustrating, Abom's might seems to be the most dominant buff, disregarding TSA even if you've previously applied it in my experience.

Really can't understand why they haven't just implemented it as the others have, a static buff that's applied regardless if you actually reap the benefit from it.

arrowd · 04/04/10, 12:59 PM

I think it just takes the first buff of the type it sees in alphabetical order.

KraxisSingular · 04/04/10, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by arrowd

I think it just takes the first buff of the type it sees in alphabetical order.

Which is equal to the first buff in any case. If you run into the instance, TSA is deactivated, so the first buff it sees is someone else's. If you have TSA activated and run to a Blood DK, then I shouldn't need to say which one was the first buff activated.

But the question remains, is this an issue?

Regardless of the answer to the overwriting problem, I would say that overall it isn't much of an issue. The glyph is not all that great. Yes, it is considerably better than Hawk on high mobility, single target fights, but how many of those are left? We aren't in Ulduar. And I think the fact that nobody has actually found any evidence or done any tests yet shows that the glyph isn't terribly important. That might be more of an issue honestly (given how specialized the glyph is).

Hawk · 04/08/10, 7:59 PM

After a couple of minutes looking around top 50 MM hunters in fights in ICC I noticed that 99.9% of them did not have IHM nor did the hunters raiding with them. Now on the spreadsheet it shows that speccing IHM 3/3 beats ISS 3/3 by about 50dps which is a pretty big difference. I myself raid with IHM with only the one point in ISS and I find that sufficient but I would like to know other peoples opinion on the matter. Additionally I will say that in my raids there is only myself in the raid most of the time with the 2nd hunter being unavailable but does raid from time to time.

♦ Tobin · 04/08/10, 9:01 PM

Originally Posted by Hawk

After a couple of minutes looking around top 50 MM hunters in fights in ICC I noticed that 99.9% of them did not have IHM nor did the hunters raiding with them. Now on the spreadsheet it shows that speccing IHM 3/3 beats ISS 3/3 by about 50dps which is a pretty big difference. I myself raid with IHM with only the one point in ISS and I find that sufficient but I would like to know other peoples opinion on the matter. Additionally I will say that in my raids there is only myself in the raid most of the time with the 2nd hunter being unavailable but does raid from time to time.

If you are consistently the only hunter in the raid, I really wouldn't bother with IHM. You should be gearing yourself down to the point where 3/3 Focused Aim is a necessity. Grab 1/2 Rapid Recuperation and put whatever is left into ISS (TSA optional).

Lilbitters · 04/09/10, 6:08 AM

Originally Posted by Hawk

After a couple of minutes looking around top 50 MM hunters in fights in ICC I noticed that 99.9% of them did not have IHM nor did the hunters raiding with them. Now on the spreadsheet it shows that speccing IHM 3/3 beats ISS 3/3 by about 50dps which is a pretty big difference. I myself raid with IHM with only the one point in ISS and I find that sufficient but I would like to know other peoples opinion on the matter. Additionally I will say that in my raids there is only myself in the raid most of the time with the 2nd hunter being unavailable but does raid from time to time.

Personally, Imp Hunter's Mark spreadsheets 15 DPS higher than 3/3 Imp Steady Shot for me. That being said, I still would not take it if I were the only hunter in the raid (even questionable with just 2) unless it will always be on the target which you are attacking. 15 or even 50 DPS is such a barely noticeable difference that even only a few shots on a non-marked target would result in a DPS loss in comparison to Improved Steady Shot. This is a case of it not always being ideal to take the spreadsheet literally, because the only fight in ICC that you don't attack non-marked targets are Rotface, Festergut, and Lana'thel or depending on strategy possibly also Marrowgar and Saurfang.