Azuol

Imp Tracking is still a better DPS increase than Piercing Shots so those 3 points could easily be moved to Surv. As for Wild Quiver it is still very underwhelming and from experience and the spreadsheet seems to confirm this having 4/5 Imp Tracking and 2/3 Wild Quivers is better than filling Wild Quivers.

 

Kothar

Ive found that this 15/51/5 build is the best for DPS in 5, 10s, and 25s

The BM hunters in my guild cant keep up with me. So far we AOE almost all trash and it seems almost every boss has some kind of add that procs rapid recuperation when kills. A lot of things like Maexxna's web proc RR, so i kill a lot of adds to keep my mana up.

I almost never drink until right before a boss pull. Even in 10 mans with no replenishment buffs.

Ive found that dual wielding with 2 +30 int enchants is essential to MM. Its just a lot more mana. As a MM hunter i get probably 75% of killing blows on adds and trash (RR procs for about 550 mana a tick). So far the only people ive had beat me out on DPS have been ret palis and an occasional rogue.

 

Thelastdeadmouse

Our guild is planning on bringing a MM hunter to raid for the Trueshot Aura, but no one at this point is terribly interested in specing MM and these is some concern about how much DPS they'd give up over being BM. I've made a 40/31/0 "Raid Buffing" hunter, Trueshot, Improved Hunters Mark, and Ferocious Inspiration and still gets Serpent's Swiftness.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I feel that since it still gets all the BM damage talents up to and including Serpent's and all the MM talents that BM hunters would take that the DPS should still be fairly competitive and ideally better than that of a full Marks speced hunter.

I've plugged this into the DPS spreadsheet with my gear (I haven't been completely min/maxed my gear and spec yet, be gentle) and with full raid buffs except True Shot/Abomination's/Unl. Rage (to assume that True Shot isn't going to be an overlapping buff, the point of this build) and the DPS dropped from 4492 to a still respectable 4136 after specing to this hybrid. If anyone could direct me to a "typical" MM raiding spec to compare against that I'd be appreciative.

I'd appreciate any feedback on how viable this is, or how I spent the MM talent points. I'm not sure if with SS if Aimed Shot or Multi-Shot should even be in the rotation, so the three points in Aimed Shot and Barrage could possibly be better spent elsewhere.

 

Azuol

Your typical MM raid spec is the following, with the points in Focused Aim optional depending on hit from gear and gems.
16/51/4

Aimed shot is useless in raids and a waste of a point and not taking Rapid Killing but taking readiness kind of devalues it. I would give one piece of advice to you and your hunters is that MM is not a huge DPS loss. Like I have stated before in this thread, equally geared MM and BM hunters will notice an average 200 DPS difference on most boss fights, with the BM hunter edging over the MM if there isnt a lot of moving going on. IE Patchwerk.

Your hunters should play whats fun for them but having one MM in a 25 man would be a nice increase for physical since its more reliable than unleashed rage. Not to mention most guilds run with more hunters than enhance shamans.

 

Zwaineroth

I think the following spec is close to optimal for pure MM if you can hit cap without Focused Aim: WowHead talent build

In prior theory threads, Rapid Recuperation was shown to be, point for point, a significant mana efficiency boost. Wild Quiver isn't much of a DPS boost and is a liability given that it procs off of almost everything. Piercing Shots is similarly a very weak talent point investment. Aimed Shot is useful for mobile DPS. I'm not sure about the tradeoff between two points in Unleashed Fury versus Survival Instincts, but 4% crit on talented Steady Shot seems significant. I suppose the points in Efficiency could be shifted, perhaps to Improved Hunter's Mark, but ultimately the bane of MM is having to sit in Viper, and I think the talent point distribution should reflect that.

Also, there was a lot of post-3.0 MM theorycraft done in some older threads; if someone could find them, it would be useful to move the results into this one.

 

survivalforlife

I find that this 16/53/2 build works decently. WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator

 

QQuartermaster

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

11/53/7 is what I'll be using at 80.

 

Howiego08

If you are going to post your specs in this forum, please provide the logic behind your talent choices.

 

Ursu

I've tried a spec with aimed shot, and glyph for aimed and trueshot aura, but it's not the better MM spec. Too much sacrifice for just one shot every 10 seconds. Aimed shot is still good for PvP, but sadly, it's not for raiding...

I have the same, more or less : 16/51/4
In the spreadsheet, it's the best MM spec with 5-man stuff (poor guildless hunter, but i'm just 78 and more or less casual, so, i'm just taking my time )
Efficiency or Improved HM or Piercing shots seem more or less equal but Piercing shots just improves SS, and you don't use SS on the move, so efficiency and improved HM are more reliable.
Unleashed fury is far better than Survival instincts and Improved tracking, which is better than ferocity.

I don't know if Rapid recuperation is good. In theory, we use Rapid fire twice every 3min 15s, so its uptime is 15.37%, with a 60% reduction. So it's a global reduction of 15.37%*60%=9.22% if i don't miss something or make a mistake. So it's pretty good for just 2 points, but it is in a high tier. It the spreadsheet, 2/3 wild quiver is better than 5/5 efficiency which is equal to 2/2 Rapid recuperation (if my math is right). Moreover, Wild quiver scales but not rapid recuperation.


Now, i've just one question : if we don't need to bring utility with a pet, which pet is a good dps choice pour a MM hunter ? In the spreadsheet, i've found Scorpid, and cat. It's not a surprise (BM choice after all), but is it a really important choice for MM hunter ?

 

ChainSOV

is wild quiver fixed by the way?
I remember reading that it selected the nearest target insted of your current target which would make it a no-go talent for anything with CC around.

 

Kothar

Overall im pretty happy with my cat as a MM hunter. We did our first 25 man naxx last night. Cleared Spider and Plague. Overall i think it shows the power of the 15/51/5 spec. We had 1 SP and 1 Retadin and 1 Shaman so even with limited mana regen i believe i only went to viper 1 time outside of downtime like haigan dancing.

Wow Web Stats

Overall i wound up 2.5 million ahead of everyone else due to placing those extra points in Barrage instead of Efficiency or Piercing Shots. Volley crits were between 2800 and 3400 depending on procs/debuffs. I dont think people should discount barrage as a boss DPS talent. I found a fair number of fights where i was volleying adds on top of the boss. Honestly i missed 2-3 trash pulls between every boss because i was doing loot or doublechecking the strat.

Raid buffed i had just over 14k mana which meant Rapid Recuperation proced for just under 600 a tick.

I'm pretty happy with this spec and the cat. Its possible i could squeeze a little more dps out of a scorpid but im also the raid leader and i find that kind of management not to be worth it.

 

sovichel

Ok guys. I'm having a bit of a problem. I know my DPS is not where it should be but I ran my numbers last night in the spread sheet and I am doing about the damage I should be with the spec that I have, as MM (11/53/7). I have done some checking around and I talked with some other very good hunters on my server and my spec seems to be about where it should be. I have been doing the correct shot rotation from what I understand and what I have been reading on other forums, serpent (Ss), CS, rapid fire (I pop my trinket and KC at the same time as RF), SS until CS is up, CS, when RF is done readiness and the RF again, and continue with SS/CS rotation while using my trinkets and KC whenever they are up.


Nebu is another hunter in my guild with pretty much the same spec and he out DPS's me by about 1kc, as seen on this Thaddius kill
Wow Web Stats. There is a bit of a gear difference but I don't think it is a 1k or even a 500 DPS difference that has been showing up on WWS. I am desperate I have never had low DPS like this, and I want to continue raiding, as it is the only aspect of the game I truly enjoy, but I fear that if I cannot bring up my DPS then I won't be able to raid anymore.

When I checked the numbers for a BM 50/21 spec the spread sheet jumped about 1.1K DPS.From what I can gather I think BM might be better until I can get closer to the 523 ideal haste rating. Would you guys mind if speced BM until that point, just to see if that will help? Correct me if i am wrong but the BM rotation is pretty much the same with the exception that you replace CS with Ss when ever Ss is about wear off.

 

Spatrick

Can you please explain what extra management a scorpid has over a cat?

Thanks

 

Kothar

From what i can tell to push a scorpid over a cat you need to time Aspect of the Beast with cooldowns and keep an eye on the scorpid sting stacks. if you happen to pop your trinkets when your poison isn't at 5 stacks its a net dps loss. I noticed mine would miss and fall off here or there or when managing the pets position for fights like Sartherion. Anytime you have to recall the pet to avoid damage or reposition it seems the poison drops and thats a substantial DPS loss where the cat essentially goes right back in at full dps. Also the scorpid is less effective on killing adds. After trying both in a few raids i found im producing higher dps consistantly on the important fights right the cat.

 

Elendril

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is my current build. It's possible Aimed Shot isn't worth the 1 point, but it's nice to have another high damage instant that can be used while moving - my typical rotation doesn't include it when I'm able to remain stationary. Barrage is primarily for Volley and contributes a ton of damage on any AOE fight. I'm not sure about efficiency, because I can rarely use all of my mana on fights in which I have BoW/JoW running, but on others I need to viper swap occasionally and it seems worthwhile. I may respec to Imp Mark since it seems the other hunters I raid with both spec'd BM and out of Imp Mark, so that may be where those points go.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is my projected build anticipating naturally reaching the hit cap. Again, it's possible that Aimed Shot and efficiency aren't worth it and those point should go to Imp Mark. Wild quiver seems like the best investment of the extra points once they're no longer needed lower in the tree.

Also of note, I'm curious what Glyphs people are using for MM. Steady Shot is obvious - the next best seem likely to be Hunter's Mark and Serpent Sting. Thoughts?

 

mako

I'm not sure where you get the misconception that you need to do anything special to maintain a scorpid over a cat in current raids. You don't need to wait on trinkets, the ability to roll extremely high dot stacks was changed back when SSC/TK was challenging content in TBC. Likewise, AotB is currently considered roughly equal for a BM hunter. For an MM, it is vastly inferior in all circumstances where the hunter is able to attack freely.

The only advantage a cat has over a scorpid is that you can let it auto-pilot heal itself and maintain full happiness (although feeding a pet is trivial anyway). If your raid does not have a scorpid pet already, having a hunter bring one will be a dps increase, unless a raid debuff (such as sting) is not available without a specific pet.

On trash that dies quickly, scorpid poison does not have the opportunity to build up and tick at full power, true, but trash damage shouldn't matter so long as the raid members are all participating to some extent. The biggest flaw in your statements is that you are accounting for DPS too heavily by looking at trash damage. Trash damage is just that- trash. There's so few fights that need significant aoe (gluth?) that speccing for extra aoe over single target is an overall loss of dps on the things that matter; the bosses.



There's also no fights in Naxx that requires significant pet micromanagement in order to keep it alive. The most complex thing you may find yourself doing is pulling the pet back during sapphiron's breath, which is necessary of any pet.

<Bad> Dragonmaw US
www.damnwesuck.com

 

Aguiarl

Hello Guys
In First place i want to apologize for my bad english.
I have few questions
Im Playing MM, bored with BM, and the most part of my raid is phy dps. the tsa is a great buff.

My dps is about 3k Dps or more (Patchwerk).
The only buffs i got is Kings/Might/FI

My Currently build is
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

1. I Wanna move points of Efficiency to WQ. Good Idea?
2. Is Good Pick Aimed Shot, and imp barrage, and add to rotation, or is as waste of mana?
3. Agility or AP Gems?
4. I wanna pick a "On Use trinket"
My First goal is
Loatheb's Shadow
[Loatheb's Shadow]
But not droped yet,
But im thinking on
[Incisor Fragment] Look Really nice, but i dont know how much DPS will improve,
or
[Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood] = Nice Ap
5. Picking a Scorpid over a cat is a good choise?
6. Sorry if the questions already have a anwser. my bad
Hugs and Thx for the support.

 

Xaraphyne

Your rotation sounds fine although the usefulness of Readiness is a little iffy. Speccing BM probably wouldn't hurt though, it's not like the raid needs two Trueshot Auras, and you'd see a small DPS increase at the very least.

Looking at WWS, the first thing that jumps out at me is the difference in your average numbers. The other MM hunter's Steadies are hitting for an average of almost 600 more than yours, his Autos almost 300 more, and his cat's swings about 50 more. Besides that, he also appeared to get off a lot more shots than you. That could be an error in the report, or due to haste, or poor toon management on your part (running around too much, or because you died sooner than him... by two minutes it seems?). Otherwise, it'd look like a gear difference.

 

Kothar

I disagree on the micromanagement. So far in the content I've completed Sartherion, Anub'Rekhan, Haigan, Loatheb (to get the buff), and the 4 Horsemen all require you to recall and move your pet. These fights all benefit a cats DPS over a Scorpid because of it. I havn't done Sapphiron yet so i cant comment.

Secondly I'm sorry if i wasn't clear. i wasn't referring to trash. I was referring to the benefit of the cat on adds during boss encounters. Currently I've found I prefer the cat because it assists better on encounters with big adds such as Anub'rekah, Gothik, Noth. As for the spec I mentioned. Im not giving up any real DPS to pick up Barrage. I give up 1 point in efficiency and 2 points in piercing shots. According to the hunter DPS spreadsheet in my gear i give up 17 dps by making this change while picking up 150 to 470 damage per tick of volley as you can see by taking my volley ticks from the WWS and dividing by 1.12 to get the pre-barrage damage. I find myself volleying on at least 5 of the current encounters where the only real danger is the adds getting loose.

I understand your point about losing single target damage but so far i think what i lose out on single target damage for a easy fight like patchwerk is more than made up for by helping trvialize the AOE portions of other encounters. Encounters like Sartherion, being able to let the tanks build up 3 or more adds then quickly AOEing them on top of the boss shortens the encounter significantly by keeping constant DPS on the boss. Like i said the loss is only 17 single target dps assuming a stand and shoot fight.

 

maneatingpanda

As far as my spreadsheet with my gear goes, the most DPS I can squeeze out of marks is with this spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This includes 3/3 wild quiver 2/3 imp SS over 3/3 imp SS 2/3 Quiver. It was about a 20 dps differnce between the two. Any1 else getting the same thing?

 

Ursu

Using the spreadsheet will give you more accurate answers i think.

1.I Wanna move points of Efficiency to WQ. Good Idea?
In your spec, you can just move 1 point from efficiency. Piercing shots is worst than efficiency, so i would take points from here.
Efficiency is good only if you have mana problem, and need to use viper aspect. But to correctly answer, i believe than WQ is always better in theory, and unlike efficiency, it scales with your gear.

2. Is Good Pick Aimed Shot, and imp barrage, and add to rotation, or is as waste of mana?
Waste. Playing with the spreadsheet, with 7 points (aimed, barrage and improved) and 2 glyphs for aimed, aimed is better than a steady. But you lose 7 points and 2 glyphs, and this spec is really worst than whitout aimed. Sadly, aimed is just good for burst, then PvP. You can take it for shoot on the move, but don't add it in your rotation and don't sacrifice point just for it.

3. Agility or AP Gems?
1 agility seems equivalent to 2 ap on the spreadsheet (and for my own theoritical stuff). Try with your gear on the spreadsheet, because i don't know if a difference appears with scaling.

4. I wanna pick a "On Use trinket"
My First goal is
Loatheb's Shadow
[Loatheb's Shadow]
But not droped yet,
But im thinking on
[Incisor Fragment] Look Really nice, but i dont know how much DPS will improve,
or
[Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood] = Nice Ap
Try the spreadsheet. As far as i can tell you, Sphere of red Dragon's Blood seems better, but if you are already hit capped, Incisor fragment may be better.

5. Picking a Scorpid over a cat is a good choice?
I don't know. But if you read precedent posts, there is some hunter's experience with both. Make you choice

I was going to say no, but actually, your spec qives me a better dps than mine on the spreadsheet. And yes 3/3 WQ and 2/3 ISS is better on my spreadsheet too.

 

Elendril

Another comment/question - I'm currently spec'ing my Cat like so: Pet Calculator - Wowhead. Dash and Boar's speed seem like for fights in which the pet needs to move a lot, but it's possible that Bloodthirsty is better to keep it alive in AOE fights and keep its happiness up - or maybe at least -1 point in Great Stamina for the consistent healing from Bloodthirsty would be better. How are other Marks hunters spec'ing their pets?

 

Crackseed

Elendril,

Here's what I use for my raptor - Pet Calculator - Wowhead

I find Bloodthirsty to be just too handy overall since my pet is always max happiness and regaining health to deal with alot of the various AoE effects going on. I also prefer rabid over call of the wild since my pet buffs itself on a faster cooldown and while Call stacks with AP effects, I'm not sure if that's going to remain so - plus it's a 5 min cooldown. The speed increase from Boar's or the Charge bonus was tempting, but Heart of the Phoenix has proven to be handy on a few fights where the pet just took some unlucky damage and died and I didn't have to drop my DPS to pop it back up and into the fight instantly The other talents are pretty close, though I still feel Cobra Reflexes is worthwhile.

 

Elendril

Is Cobra Reflexes an actual DPS increase for non-BM hunters? My understanding is that it's useful for BM because of how it interacts with their talents like Ferocious Inspiration, but I don't see how it's a net benefit without those.

 

• Tsook

Cobra Reflexes is a 10-15% increase in pet white dps (it doesn't decrease damage done as much as it increases attack speed). For BM it interacts nicely with Frenzy, but even for Marks it's an increase in pet white dps. Whether that's worth it over other options for the talent points is between you and your WWS.