Vitaro

I just tested this at the level 80 target dummy using Arcane Shot:

- RAP: 4429
- No on-proc trinkets

UNMARKED
Hit: 1396
Crit: 3468
So an unmarked crit does 248% damage

MARKED
Hit: 1529
Crit: 3798
So a marked crit also does 248% damage

Ergo, the second part of the Marked for Death effect (increased crit damage on specials) is irrelevant of whether the target is marked or not.

 

JoeF-3

I made a pretty simple macro for this one:
if you use the ? icon, it will switch between the shot icons based on whatever step in the sequence you're on. The 8 means that if you don't use aimed before chimera is off of cd, you'll get chimera on your next shot. Target is so you don't get the rotation backwards switching between targets. That part might not be optimal for others, tho.

I was hoping to work arcane shot into this macro, but it really didn't work very well, unfortunately.

 

Whitefyst

That's a nice macro that works well most of the time, but one situation in which you need to be careful with it is the following. If you use Readiness between Chimera Shot and Aimed Shot and attack again before the 8 s is up. This could possibly result in the order being reversed. Of course, this can be easily managed by making sure you only use Readiness after the double use of the macro.

I didn't know about the trick with the ? icon.

Thanks for the information, I will probably try it out.

 

Mugsley

I was actually thinking of putting together a quick-and-dirty Readiness macro to make sure everything gets used. Something to the effect of:

/cast Readiness
/cast Rapid Fire
/cast Kill Command
/cast Chimera Shot
/cast Aimed Shot


You could even throw a Kill Shot and/or Arcane in as well (though I'm unsure if a /cast Kill Shot would cause the macro to hang up). This would ensure everything gets put back on cooldown right after Readiness gets popped. Putting the castsequence above could work, but I see this as a button you spam a few times to force cooldowns, then go back to using your normal keybinds for rotations.

 

Fierra

Bolded would cause the macro not to work; you cannot have multiple GCD abilities listed in a macro anymore. This would likely be your ideal macro:

/cast Readiness
/cast Rapid Fire
/cast Kill Command
/cast Kill Shot
/cast Chimera Shot

KS works in there because it has been removed from the GCD; you'll just have to watch your Aimed/Multi and fire it manually!

 

Mugsley

If I keep Aimed in there, will I just be able to spam the button instead of just clicking it once?

 

Whitefyst

That Readiness macro may work for you and others depending on your "rotation", but I personally consider it over macroing and that it will only work ideally in specific situations with taking away a lot of flexibility. Items to consider:

1) Kill Command is an on proc ability. Is there really any benefit to having it in your Readiness macro? The ability is not refreshed with Readiness. The only benefit I see is if you are using this macro to shoot several shots and want to use any Kill Command procs that occur during this time. However, if you have KC on macros for each of your regular shots already and do not use this macro to perform more than one GCD, it really provides little benefit.

2) It requires you to use Readiness only when Rapid Fire is currently not in effect or else you lose the remaining part of the current rapid fire. This essentially causes an up to 12 s delay on the availability of your next Readiness as oppossed to if you just hit it immediately after your first Rapid Fire. It also requires you to use Readiness only when you also want to be using Rapid Fire or else you "waste" your Rapid Fire (in addition to the possibly unused/partially used rapid fire). Hence, if you use Readiness in an emergency situation such as to trying to manage your threat by FDing or MDing when both are currently on CD, you could end up using your Rapid Fire at an unideal time.

3) You are having to click it several times (and probably add a castsequence) to get it to shoot all the shots that have reset CDs.

Personally, I prefer the unmodified Readiness with just manually restarting my rotation after hitting it. This also allows me to make my decision to use Readiness separate from other decisions and provides much more flexibility.

If I was to macro anything into Readiness, it would only be Kill Shot so that if I used Readiness when the boss had less than 20% health, it would always cast the refreshed Kill Shot immediately. However, I see no reason to do this either since I already have Kill Shot on macros for each of my other shots. Hence, I just hit Readiness and then any of the other shots in my standard rotation and Kill Shot will fire.

So in summary my point is that if this macro models exactly how you use Readiness the vast majority of the time, then it may save you a little (but not much). However, if you do not always use Readiness in a way that conforms to the limitations in the macro, you could end up costing yourself more with the macro than what it provides.

 

Noctivagant

When is the absolute best time to pop readiness? Obviously the goal is to get a double Chimera and double Rapid Fire, but do you want to cast it during the duration of the Rapid fire or outside it? Does it in anyway interfere with GCD use during the Rapid Fire time?

 

Endage

Kill Command has been changed for a long time already. It's no longer an on proc ability. You might want to check your spellbook

 

Mugsley

I played with this macro last night and found it helped. I used it to chain together RFs, but for some reason, it wouldn't get to Chimera; so I had to manually throw Chimera. I'm curious if it's hanging up on Kill Shot.

And, yes, KC has been non-proc since 3.0 (pre-Wotlk) -- and it *is* affected by Readiness.


Our raid has 3-4 Hunters in it at all times, so there's *always* a MD up. I also never get into a situation where I have to FD twice in rapid succession. I do have Readiness on its own, on my bars, but I have this macro hotkeyed. The DPS "issue" last night was that fights aren't lasting long enough to pop Readiness/RF a second time by the end of the fight. Because of that, is it better to wait and pop the Readiness macro at <20% boss health, for the extra Kill Shots?

I'm not worried about DPS, per se (I'm pulling my own weight in my raid), but I'm curious if this is better for overall damage/DPS.

 

Moyotoshi

Is there really a point in taking Aimed Shot in a Marks spec? It does higher damage than Steady at three times the cost, sure, but unless the tooltips are glaringly wrong, it does the exact same damage as one Multi-Shot hit. Multi-Shot costs barely more than Aimed Shot and doesn't have the debuff (which is pretty much pointless in PvE). So what's the point of wasting a talent point here?

Is it just because it's instant as opposed to a .5 second cast?

 

Mugsley

It's another instant, but also there really isn't much else to throw a talent point into in order to get to the next tier of talents (for example, my personal opinion is Imp Mark is an all-or-nothing talent).

 

Moyotoshi

This is the build I'm currently fiddling with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. Glyphs are Steady, Serpent and Hunter's Mark.

I find that Efficiency is a great place to dump 'throwaway' talents when reaching the next tier because I find myself going OOM much more quickly than I'd like on boss fights. Not really sure what I'm doing wrong there. I also don't normally find myself in situations where an extra instant will help terribly much. There aren't really that many bosses that require such frequent movement. Obviously Heigan and the dragon in Nexus are exceptions, but not the rule.

I suppose that leads into my next question: How do I prevent myself from going OOM so quickly and relying on Viper? I've tried MP5 gems, Cunning pets, asking for Wisdom before Might, making sure I'm with a replenishment battery... Am I missing something? I know my rotation is solid, but I'm almost always sitting at an empty bar of blue rage. Add to that, it takes me what seems like ages to go from 0 to full mana in Viper (I don't stop my rotation during Viper to try and keep as much DPS during that phase as possible - is it best to just Auto and Steady? I hate to let my sting fall off!).

Sorry if this is obnoxious, I'm just trying to be a better hunter by asking better hunters.

 

Wolfstrum

First off I totally missed the change to Kill Command, or at least overlooked it when it happened.

I try to get on the forum here and elsewhere at least once a week to stay current on the state of Marks Hunters and how best to maximize my DPS. I will admit that before the Steady Shot nerf I had gotten pretty lazy with macro spamming and still getting great numbers as MM. I am enjoying manual shot weaving like I use to do in the "old" days. I like to think I am doing a good job at my weaving and take time to go thru the WWS parses each week to see where I need to improve. I am not perfect with my rotation and will continue to work on improving but I am still falling farther behind our 2 SV hunters than I am happy with even after the ES nerf. All three of us are in comparable gear. Yet they consistenly out DPS me. I am looking for all the input I can get. Here is the most representative WWS parse currently available. I will post a patchwerk parse later this week. There is one fight where I consistently beat them and that is on Loatheb. This makes me wonder if the key is Crit. My armory is up to date with my spec and armor. I am hit capped. Glyphs are StS, SerS and RF.

 

Whitefyst

Ah, yes, I forgot that was changed. I have had it macroed into my shots for so long that I overlooked and forgot the change.

But either way, I am not a fan of a Readiness macro since as I said it limits its use for me. But as I said before, that's muy preference and it may work fine for others.

Hard to answer your question without knowing whether you are talking 10- or 25-mans. In 10-mans, mana is going to tend to be more of a problem. Either way, you are going to go into Viper at some point, and although not ideal, it is not necesarily bad. And while in Viper, unless you have very low int, feel free to still use Chimera. My int is high enough that I still use my whole rotation in Viper and regen pretty fast. Another note is that you shouldn't ride Viper all the way to full mana. Use it only to about 50% mana over the range when regen is better then switch back to Dragonhawk.

With that said, you shouldn't be sacrifing your DPS too much for mana when you have Viper as a resource. Doesn't help never going OOM if your lose so much DPS that to do it. I would strongly advise taking Might and then Kings over Wisdom. I also wouldn't take any straight MP5 gems althought the purples (like Tenuous) with AP/agi and mp5 are good options for blue sockets. I also would move two of your points in Eff into SI to buff the crit on steady and arcane. That 4% mana savings is not a big deal.

Next what elixers are you using? I use Mighty Thoughts for my guardian elixer since not only is the Int AP, it also is a larger mana pool and better regen under Viper.

 

Moyotoshi

I mostly just use Endless Rage for raids (25s, not worth the investment for 10s) since I don't have the funds to purchase stack upon stack of elixirs for every unforseen wipe. I also try to make use of the Chimera Shot Viper effect when we're on a boss with mana, but having to switch to Viper, even a talented Viper, means I fall that much farther behind the melee DPS.

 

Sylvand

If you run 25 mans, my advice is to optimize for that and leave 10 mans secondary.

Having said that, if you are having mana issues, rapid recuperation may be a good option for you; your RF/readiness/RF will save you a lot of mana this way. It also helps in cases like Kel'Thuzad, where it becomes very easy to enter P2 with full mana.

As far as aspect of the viper goes, there are certainly a lot of ways to handle it. The general guideline is to get as much mana as you need while minimizing the price (i.e. damage penalty) you pay for it. So you can do things like, switch to hawk for chimera and viper for steady spam, or use viper when you are on the move, etc. Also on fights like Thaddius/Malygos, you want to make sure you're in hawk while you have the nice damage buffs.

Keep in mind the "as much mana as you need" part. Often I'll find myself running out of mana toward the end of a fight, but I only spend a few seconds in viper because very little mana is really needed to finish the fight.

There's no magic bullet, and indeed in a lot of cases lack of mana buffs may put you pretty low on the charts, but with practice you can get a real feel for when to use viper, and that should help minimize the impact.

 

mcam3113

I found the best rotation is: rapid fire, kill command, serpent sting, chim shot, arcane, and when your rapidfire wears off fire your next available chim and arcane then use readiness and immediately use rapid, chim arcane. If your speced for a cd of 3mins they will be off cd at same time. If your readiness comes off cd before rapidfire your lossig dps.

 

SenorPez

Aimed Shot also has the advantage of being affected by other talents such as Improved Steady Shot and Marked for Death. As your crit rating improves (either by improving gear or fighting Loetheb), you'll see more and more benefit from MfD on your Aimed Shots than you would from Multi.

Multi, conversely, doesn't have any "exclusive" improvement talents. Anything that boosts the performance of Multi will also boost the performance with Aimed.

The "instant" (even though it can't be fired on the run) of Aimed Shot is also a nice feature. Despite the fact that I have to pause for a moment to let it loose, it means I can live dangerously on Heigan (you have to pause in a zone once in a while), can get marginally better DPS while running around Archavon (if you want to get stone shards, stand next to me and you'll be targeted), and other motion-based fights.

Last (and probably least), using Aimed keeps me out of "bad habits." While it's not a problem with the current state of raids (or 5-mans, for that matter), if "required" CC on bosses or trash ever makes a comeback, being muscle-memoried into using Multi-Shot could make the first couple of nights an absolute struggle.

Taming an untextured cube.

 

Fierra

Aimed is a true instant; it can be fired while moving. Perhaps you're thinking of Multi, which has a hidden .5s cast?

 

stoagie

Some Vitaro magic. Thanks for this nugget - I'll be updating all my main shots with such macros.

 

Whitefyst

Hopefully, you guild shouldn't be wiping much (if at all) on Naxx content, and for some of those that they do, you should hopefully be able to FD out and save consumables.

If you are not wiping much and am having mana problems, I strongly suggest using Elixers of Might Agility and Mighty Thoughts. This combination works out to roughly equivalent DPS to the flask for me but greatly improved mana situation. It boosts my mana pool by about 770 mana and increases my Viper regen rate.

I notice a huge negative difference in my mana situation between when I use a flask over the elixers. Hence, I only use flasks on progression fights with a lot of wipes (only Sarth 3D for us) where we usually wipe before mana is a problem, until we are really close. Everything else is farm content, and I use elixers for max effectiveness and since I shouldn't have to reapply them (helps with chain pulling trash too).

If the elixers are scarce and expensive on the AH, look into buying the mats and having a friend that is elixer spec making them for you for the possible extra elixers from procs. Elixers should be cheaper to come by than flasks and should be more cost effective as long as you are not dieing a lot.

And as Sylvan and others have stated, there are more optimal times to use Viper than others. In addition to what was already stated, some standard times I use Viper include:
- In the Vortex on Malygos (if needed)
- Last 20s or so of spawns on Gothik to make sure I have full mana when he comes out
- Last 20s on the "trash" before Kel'thuzad in attackable to make sure I have full mana when he comes out
- Last 20s on Fuegen/Stalag to make sure I have full mana by the time we start killing Thaddius

Also, if I am running low on mana late in a fight, I go to Viper briefly to regen a little as others suggested, but I make sure to switch back between performing Kill Shot.

Also, another little trick that I and others use that has its usefulness is adding the following into a Serpent Sting macro prior to casting the sting:

/cast !Aspect of the Dragonhawk

This makes sure that you always have Dragonhawk up when casting Serpent Sting for maximum effectiveness of it. It was broken for a bit after 3.0.8, but it works again now. This macro is not only useful during boss fights as an easy switch back out of Viper along with reapplying your sting when you have any AP boost, but it is also useful during chain pulls of trash. I switch to Viper to regen immediately after one set of trash is done and regen while we move to the other. I start my attacks on the next set of trash with a Serpent Sting putting me back into Dragonhawk and maximing my Viper regen between the pulls.

 

Obellix

I'm looking for a bit of clarification on using Arcane or Aimed Shot in a MM rotation. I've seen alot of debate on wich one to use or to use both.

According to Shandara's spreadsheet, this spec gives me the most dps on paper. i've tried taking points from Imp. AS and put one in Aimed and 2 in unleashed fury or efficiency and adjust my shot rotation but every result i get is a dps decrease.

My priority Shot list is Rapid Fire >Serpent Sting >Kill Shot >Chimera Shot >Arcane Shot >Readiness >Steady Shot.

The only way i can think to improve dps would be when i'm on the move and fireing Aimed when the others are on CDs.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

 

Sylvand

Use both. The only folks not using arcane shot are survival hunters because its cooldown is shared with explosive shot. Aimed is a tradeoff between dps and mana, but it's almost always worth using.

Keep in mind arcane shot changed significantly with 3.0.8, so consider the date of the sources you read if you find them conflicting.

 

Myul

During naxx trash or the whole sartharion fight, barrage is allmost allways worth 3 points. And with those points invested, aimed shot is on par with arcane shot, damage wise.

Specced for survival instincts, it's only a 4% crit increase that makes the difference (despite the mana cost difference).

But since it's a 1000 damage increase over steady shot it should be a no brainer to get it for 1 point. It will also increases your dps while moving by an remarkable amount (another instant to throw in).