I appreciate those putting up their lists of Best In Slot items, as I welcome the validation of my own list, and enjoy looking into the comparisons between those and mine.

What I found interesting is that set bonuses of Tier armor seems to be a non-factor in many of these lists. Are they really that minimal a benefit?

I assume you used the rotation posted eariler with aimed added into it. I was wondering what did you use to get the pet dps that high? I saw that the Frosted Adroit was the highest dps gloves, but I decided not to add them since they drop from Malygos and all feral druids and rogues would hate you for taking them. Also, what changes did you make to gain that dps increase for the hunter?

I should have added this with an earlier post, but here's are some stats to compare, raidbuffed:

ddsurge: 6147 AP, 46.71% crit, 404 haste rating, 105 ArP rating
Sebudai: 6067 AP, 47.68% crit, 311 haste rating, 136 ArP rating
Ketsuri: 6200 AP, 48.15% crit, 301 haste rating, 68 ArP rating
Neruse: 6225 AP, 48.58% crit, 301 haste rating, 68 ArP rating

I'm not completely sure on Sebudai's setup; I assumed Flagrant Progress and Torn Web Wrapping. The 16/51/4 spec provided by ddsurge was rather weak on mana even in raids. Also, haste and ArP are very poor dps stats for marks.

I'll run them again on a 4 minute fight (which is typical for solid guilds right now) to show what can be done without needing viper:

ddsurge: 5805.33 (4701.57 hunter, 1103.76 cat; I moved a point from UF to IT)
Sebudai: 5772.76 (4655.28 hunter, 1117.49 cat)
Ketsuri: 5803.60 (4687.16 hunter, 1116.43 cat)
Neruse: 5839.76 (4713.51 hunter, 1126.25 cat)

The last three was with 15/51/5 with RK and RR, but no ISS. So, the numbers suggest ddsurge's setup is almost optimal when mana is available, but takes a serious dive when the fight is prolonged.

Also, regarding Accuracy; it is overbudget, but can't overcome the raw strength of AP and AGI as dps stats especially when one can get hit rating elsewhere.

Edit: Screwing around, this seems to be the highest dps spec but with a huge caveat: It goes OOM with maximum raidbuffs in 165 seconds (and I'm assuming 100% replenishment uptime, highly unlikely to happen). Any fight that lasts longer, or reduces mana regen/drains mana will cause the spec to flat out bomb.

Sorry to get a bit off topic but I would like input in this spec: here. Not sure if it would be good to put points int he SV tree for Survival Instinct or just have 4 points in Imp. Tracking and the rest into Unleashed Fury?

The problem with this wave of best-in-slot lists is that they either don't state explicitly what buffs were assumed, or they assume the default "Level 80 raid" buffs in the spreadsheet which have some glaring flaws:
- It assumes using the level 70 buff food
- It assumes using the level 70 +AP flask
- It assumes the impossible - applying TBC weapon oils to level 80 items
- It assumes you are missing available raid buffs (debateable)

For the TBC version of this list, the list of raid buffs, allowed racials, professions, etc. was debated and agreed on. This made it pretty easy to tell when a new combination of gear/spec/buffs/rotation was in fact an upgrade (and let Kamaa put the smackdown on all the random "I found a new DPS high, all it needs is for gravity to fall upwards" posts).

I'll throw my proposal for acceptable parameters into the ring:
- Assume the presence of all available raid buffs & boss debuffs - everything on, max rank, all the time.
- Allow any race, but if you choose Horde you must turn off Heroic Presence for both hunter & pet
- Allow any food/elixir/flask buff for hunter & pet, but require people to state what they used
- Allow any pair of professions, but require people to state what they used
- Allow any hunter talent spec, but require people to state what they used
- Allow any major & minor glyphs, but require people to state what they used
- Allow any shot rotation priority, but require people to state what they used
- Allow any pet choice & talent spec, but require people to state what they used
- Allow any pet ability priority, but require people to state what they used
- Assume default values for all properties on the Settings tab
- Allow any gear & enchants currently available in game

Personally I'd love to see a revival of the "Best gear/DPS for each spec" thread we had in TBC, but IMHO we should learn from what worked & didn't in that thread, for the WotLK version.

Guess I'll just re-post my complete listing to clear up anymore confusion about those slots I didn't mention:

[Blue Aspect Helm] + [Arcanum of Torment]
[Favor of the Dragon Queen]
[Valorous Cryptstalker Spaulders] + [Greater Inscription of the Axe]
[Drape of the Deadly Foe] + 22 agility enchant
[Valorous Cryptstalker Tunic] + 10 to all stats enchant
[Slime Stream Bands] + 50 attack power enchant
[Valorous Cryptstalker Handguards] + 44 attack power enchant
[Depraved Linked Belt] + [Eternal Belt Buckle]
[Valorous Cryptstalker Legguards] + [Icescale Leg Armor]
[Boots of the Renewed Flight] + Icewalker enchant
[Surge Needle Ring]
[Strong-Handed Ring]
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
[Fury of the Five Flights]
[Calamity's Grasp] + Accuracy enchant
[Sinister Revenge] + Accuracy enchant
[Envoy of Mortality] + [Heartseeker Scope]

Gems are:
[Relentless Earthsiege Diamond]
[Delicate Scarlet Ruby]
[Deadly Monarch Topaz]
[Shifting Twilight Opal]

Food is:
[Snapper Extreme]

The above listing ignores profession-specific perks and racial abilities. Total dps in the spreadsheet was 5408.85 using a 11/53/7 spec. This is not a spec that maximizes spreadsheet dps, although it's very close. We all know the spreadsheet isn't capable of mimicing reality 100% accurately. I don't really see the point of attempting to maximize spreadsheet dps by making decisions I know would be incorrect in the game.

1) 40 agi food or 40 hit if the person states they're using it.
2) Endless rage flask.
3) Oils don't work, but demonic runes do. Regardless, I'm not assuming either.
4) Not unreasonable to assume all raid buffs in a 25 man.

I'm using the same buffs, and the same spec as often as possible. I tested with a fight length that didn't require any viper use. These are all controlled variables. I don't know how you can assume I'm randomly removing/adding buffs as I compare gear; it just doesn't make sense.

Yes, you actually can easily determine a best-in-slot list when using reasonable control variables.

Science. It works.

Edit fer two fight lengths (4 min, 8 min extreme):

Sebudai (~6030 AP, 46.29% crit): 5753 dps/5634 dps
Neruse (~6220 AP, 48.85% crit): 5839 dps/5680 dps

Only differences are the exact pieces of gear, the choice of gems, and food. It's a direct Gear A vs Gear B comparison. Note that when AotV enters the equation (8min has both using viper sometimes), 4pc starts closing the gap. Though it'd probably take a 12-15 minute fight before it finally passes non-set pieces.

Not going to argue science, but you're missing half of it.

So, if I take a 2% damage buff away from both specs, does one somehow change by 5%? No.

We're all using the same trinkets, so procs are irrelevant.

Using streaky crit rate as your argument? Be reasonable. The spreadsheet simulates the rotation with 5k shots to eliminate abnormally low and high crit rate streaks.

PS. Raptor's are within 5 dps of cats. Wasps are within 50 and are a net raid upgrade if you should somehow have no druid for FF.

Also, I'd love haste to death if it reduced the GCD. But it doesn't.

I actually just came back to edit my post... apparently they're normalizing Chim Sting to 5 ticks and SrS to current AP values when you re-apply SrS by use of Chim Shot. This makes the spread sheet a lot more accurate in a round-about way, but probably still less accurate than a straight forward simulation would.

That said, I will concede the streaky crits arguement, seeing as it's one I find indefensible.

edit:

No, but what it does is make hit rating more important. 1 point in FA will lose your pet roughly 15 DPS, but it is worth 32 points of itemization you can spend elsewhere. If you were to spend them all on AP, for example, you would get inflated physical damage but deflated non-physical damage (due to more partial resists, which I don't believe the spread sheet calculates.)

If all we're trying to do is land within 5% of any other gearset theres probably a lot of combinations that can fill the "optimal" requirement seeing as the DPS variance would be roughly 150 DPS.

My comment wasn't aimed at you (or anyone in particular). My observation was that assumptions about the raid/party buffs, boss debuffs, player/pet food/elixirs/flasks, racials, professions, etc. all have a big impact on what the "best in slot" setup is for a given spec - and even more so across specs.

Personally I'd love to see the WotLK version of the TBC thread, if only because it helped us uncover gear configuration that didn't stand out immediately as best-in-slot (e.g. using a fist weapon with a blunt sharpening stone, or using the Naxx40 shoulder enchants). If we're gonna recreate that thread, lets learn from the last one & pick good defaults.

Sebudai points out that the spreadsheet isn't a 100% model of reality, and I agree. However it is a definitive control system, so I'd favor using it as the impartial arbiter of what "best" means, and rely on people to not be idiots when applying what they learn from it.

Well I guess the first thing to do if you wanted to find BiS would be to agree on ONE spec + shot rotation for each tree, a default set of raid buffs and character race. That would indeed be interesting. So far I haven't given much credit to peoples list of BiS gear, admittedly they are probably mostly right but for the sake of finding the absolutely best stuff/combination there needs to be a certain standard.