Of the raiding I've done in Wrath of the Lich King, my shots rank in this order of damage output:
Chimera > Arcane > Steady > Aimed > Auto
And the number I get off is:
Auto > Steady > Arcane = Aimed > Chimera. I don't understand why Aimed Shot is so much more potent. Unless you put all 3 points into Improved Barrage, which I think is overkill for crit in general. If you were to move two of those points over to the Survivalist talent buffing Steady Shot and Arcane shot crits, you'd actually be enhancing the shots that have higher damage outputs. That seems the major overall issue. We're stacking a lot of enhancements on the weaker of the shots to begin with. With the right calibration, you can place buffs on the stronger shots.
I'm currently raiding as 16/51/4 and im easily holding my own, however, i keep seeing all these posts with people having aboslutely no mana problems. Am i to understand this as they're not going into viper at all or just are in viper what they'd deem an acceptable amount of time?
I'm currently specd for rapid recouperation (love this talent) and have 3 points in efficiency an will end up in viper for at least a few seconds on most fights, nothing to complain about there. Any fight with adds and i'll usually gain a decent amount of mana, 4k last gluth kill so i feel this talent is worth the points. But like a hunter i'm always looking to do more damage and i've just got [Final Voyage] from four horsemen so i was considering 13/51/7.
My pets doing 1k dps here and is ~25% of my dps where as steady is 28%, and so my initial thought were this was a bad idea however rng has robbed me of ~10% crit on this fight so i thought i'd share my problem. If it helps at all my pet had 850 average dps across bosses.
I'm actually a bored BM hunter that'd like to respec to MM, i've got lots of doubts solved in this thread, but there are some points that are still unclear to me:
1- Glyph of Serpent Sting
if I read correctly, this glyph adds 3 seconds to the duration of the shot, but it doesn't increase its damage, so the result would be that the damage that was being divided in 5 ticks is now divided in 6 ticks, ending in each tick dealing less damage. This said, Chimaera Shot damage is related to the damage that Serpent shot did (not the total damage), and if i've read correctly CS is being used as soon as the cooldown is over. Wouldn't all this result in a loss of dps if this glyph is being used as a MM hunter?
1.b Related to CS, which one is better, use it on CD or wait till Serpent Sting is about to finish
2- glyph Steady shot related bugs.
There are two that have been mentioned in this thread, the first is the Marked of Death one, and the second is the Improved Stings one.
relating the first it's been suggested that maybe using 4/5 MoD (maybe) would fix the bug, the thing is that if my guesses are correct (which are that the Glyph and the MoD are overwriting each other) this should work, but Since i recently built a Mechano-Hog I'm out of monney and cant test this out
relating the second nothing has been said, and i'm not sure on how it works.
3- Efficiency
most of the builds i've actually seen in this thread pick the Hit talent over Efficiency, and i cant understand why is this.
4-Glyph selection
The big problem with MM is haste, BM is haste capped even going nude :[, but MM needs 520+ haste rating to reach the desirable 1.5 steady shots, this is why I think that the Glyphs that should be used being MM are:
Glyph of Steady Shot (if the bug is fixed)
Glyph of Hunter's Mark (naturally)
Glyph of Improved Aspect of the Hawk <-- (this one over Serpent for the reasons stated at #1)
the build imo is 15/16-51-5/4, i can't think of something better atm. (pirecing shots should be revised by blizzard, as well as wild quiver, they should be more useful than they actually are)
P.D: sorry for the bad typo or if its difficult to read, i'm not used to write in english.
I believe that serpent sting glyph increases the total damage done by the sting, just like old improved swp talent for shadow priests increased the total damage of the swp.
Also, Chimera Shot does % of total damage of one full serpent sting, thus serpent sting glyph will increase chimera shot damage. I believe there is a post in spreadsheet thread that shows this (if not there, somewhere else).
So, you'd use Chimera Shot on cd.
For efficiency, I think right now, fights are too short for mana to actually become a problem (I'm not sure about marks, but I believe bm can last quite a while with raid buffs).
On the other hand, depending on gear, you might need focused aim to cap hit. If you don't need focused aim, you can put those points somewhere else, may be even efficiency.
Efficiency will become relevant when fights are longer.
As for glyph, I think Hunter's mark vs serpent sting depends on how many hunters you have in your raid.
I've seen WWS reports with 5 hunters or so, all doing 5k+ dps. May be then, hunter's mark glyph may be more useful than serpent sting glyph. But for your personal dps, serpent sting glyph will be better.
This is all I know for now. Please let me know if any of this information is incorrect.
I'm sorry you are right, i've been testing and serpent glyph increases damage as well as duration, so ticks remain the same, and as you say chimera shot uses full serpent sting damage and not "Damage done" since done is a past term, i think the tooltip is a bit wrong there, as I was.
For the last few days, I've been raiding 11/53/7.
basically I've just been using the standard cat focus dump macro with steady shot and kill shot, then weaving in chimaeras every time it's up. With this build my glyph choices have been: [Glyph of Steady Shot], [Glyph of Serpent Sting], and [Item not found!]. I'm pretty sure I can squeeze out more dps by changing around some of my gear for more hit, but hey, who's perfect at this point.
My latest patchwerk.
It seems like i didn't use kill command or berserking at all during this fight because i didn't. I had some major ui malfuntions and that was the dps i was able to pound out during the fight.
i probly look like a noob, but i have a few speculations to make:
1. once i hit the 530 haste mark, my dps actually went down when i tested as BM, from testing as MM
2. hit, while overrated as it is, is still worth of getting to the ~150 range (talented)
3. in regard to mana upkeep, if there's a replenishment in the raid and judgement of wisdom on the boss, i regain about 30-35% of my mana during rapid fire while specced for rapid reccuperation.
4. being the only hunter in most of my guild's raids, glyphing for serpent sting is majorly important.
i'd really like to know if changing around my gear for Armor Pen stats is worth it.. any input would be appreciated.
Not my find, but the problem beeing discussed/tested in this World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> Marked for Death breaks Glyph of Steady Shot topic greatly concerns me.
Now, i dont know (nor can find) if it has already popped up on EJ, but is someone able to test this out and call a definite conclusion?
it's been psoted here a couple of times, but I tested it for myself to take conclusions and yes, its bugged, on marked mobs the glyph doesnt work.
4. being the only hunter in most of my guild's raids, glyphing for serpent sting is majorly important.
The utility of this glyph is unrelated to the number of hunters in the raid - it's real utility, for MM, is to add the extra tick the glyph grants to the bonus damage of Chimera Shot.
i was remarking more to the idea of steady shot glyph working with other hunter's serpent stings, while i was bm there was an apparent increase in damage from other hunter's serpent stings, however considering the fact that MFD and the glyph don't stack right now, i look like a noob.
Something I have been pondering a little is Improved Steady Shot and the value of it's proc.
In a Chimera -> 6x Steady it is very close to proccing every timem but that requires Haste cap, so a 5x Steady is more likely. In that case the proc chance drops considerably, but in most cases it should still be up for Chimera (and this is partially why Steady Shot is better than either Aimed or Arcane, just forget Arcane ever existed outside movement phases). But there will be a couple cases where it hasn't procced yet. And that's when I have been calculating that, a little offhand, that trying for ONE more Steady might just be worth the payoff in a proc for Chimera (don't forget it also includes the manareduction), but only one cast. Any more and Chimera will get postponed too much and you haven't glyphed Serpent Sting it runs a risk of dropping off.
Looks like I'm in a similar situation. I'm the same spec and keep reading about how hunters have no mana problems. Would love an answer to bolded question.
In a 25m raid with BoW and JoW up I spend zero time in Viper - the only 25m boss I regularly use viper on is Malygos because of target swapping in phase 2 and using instants during vortex in phase 1. In 10 man raids without the I have to spend some time in Viper in almost all fights.
Hi, i was wondering what people think of this. First off, this isn't my idea, it had been suggested by a previous person, but since then i haven't seen any follow up on it and i would like your feed back on it. pretty much i'm trying too minimize my time and debuffs while in AotV, so' I've taken Aspect mastery for the 10% damage reduction buff on viper and 2/2 rapid recuperation for the 60& reduced mana cost too all spell's while in RF. Using the Level 80 dummies in Ogrimar, I gained a 450 Dps increase, from 1100 to 1550, when i used Rapid fire during AotV( I had to use Readiness in order too bring it off of CD) instead of using Rapid fire whenever it was off CD. Overall this seems like a pretty good way too mitigate the disadvantages of AotV. Along with this, I'm thinking that with the 4Pc T7 bonus and if IAoH were to proc while in AotV, this could be a great way too minimize out viper time. Anyways, I'd really like too see what other people think of this strategy.
Last edited by Mr.Tusks : 12/05/08 at 5:15 PM.
Reason: Typo's
1) To the very last noter. Yes, Rapid Fire can yield great results when used in Aspect of the Viper because it reduces the amount of time you spend with severely nerfed damage. I would advocate doing this only in 10-mans, 25-mans you'll find mana conservation / regeneration not nearly issue enough to do so. I would also stress that this same theory only works on shorter boss fights where you won't get around to a second string of Rapid Fires anyway. From my own testing, while the DPS gain is significant when practicing on a dummy, that is somewhat negated when you consider you could pull 4 Rapid Fires off during a long boss fight as opposed to 2.
2) I just spent more time than my work would like to hear about in the DPS spreadsheet, putting all my gear in and tweaking shot rotations etc. And still I find that with all the jumbled talents, Arcane Shot vastly eclipses Aimed Shot to the point where Arcane provides a DPS increase even when instructing the spreadsheet to ignore the Steadyshot bonus damage procs. I maintain that Arcane Shot, especially with the 15% damage bonus talents (which can be easily acquired) is worthwhile. I stand by that.
So after respeccing Marks from 50/21 to help my personal DPS on Thaddius in 25, all I can say is ... Wow do I love MM. I specced 11/53/7 and did the last 3 bosses in Naxx 25 tonight and the spec seems to do very well. Im going to hold onto this spec and raid along side a bm hunter for a bit to see what is what.
Below are the WWS logs from the fights tonight. Both Hunters are specced MM.
Only thing im wondering about is the usefulness of Wild Quiver. Although at that point your options are a bit low.
Wild Quiver is around a 2%-2,5% dps gain for 3 points. While it's not an excellent dps gain, it still is a gain and scales as your dps goes up. Other talents offer a larger gain per point such as Focused Fire or Improved Tracking, which both give a 1% dps gain per point. Basically, take it if you can spare the points in your build, but if you need the points elsewhere, there are better talent choices.
*edited for clarity*: What I mean by scaling is if you clock in at 3000 DPS, WQ will give around 60 DPS. At 4000 DPS, 80 DPS and so on. The talent itself doesn't increase as your DPS goes up, just the gain from the talent.
I have read through all this thread, I know the MM haste cap to get to 1.5ss mark, but I was wondering if there would be any sweetspot for haste that would put you right over/at the cap while under effects of rapid fire or bloodlust that would result in a dps increase from the non wasted item points, or is grabbing haste pieces until the cap the way to go? Right now my Haste cooldown usage has been
troll racial bezerking > usually bloodlust > rapid fire > Readiness > Rapid fire > Repeat depending on length
Here is WWSS of my first Patchwerk 25 downing using this Wow Web Stats
It's not very good to assume that you will be hasted the entirety of a fight. While short 5-man fights currently possess this possibility, it's not the case in 25 mans.
While the haste rating on items has less value when your steady is at/below 1.5s, it is not like hit rating in that it is not useless when over the "cap". Haste dose not appear to have a hard cap, so even after you soft cap it by getting 1.5s steady shots, your autoshot speed still benefits from the haste rating.
Although it may be dependent on fight length, you'd generally be better off picking up gear with haste on it. I'm not sure I'd socket for it, but I certainly wouldn't actively avoid gear with significant amounts of it.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
This is how i decided to skill, is this a solid build, or should I drop 5 points and put them in Imp. Tracking, or anything else, that should i keep in mind :>
2. Currently i'm using following glyphs: Serpentsting, Steadyshot, imp. Hunter Mark. Is this ok, or should i change one of them in order to improve my dps.
3. I read through the thread and got the impression, that most people just do an simplistic steady/chimera rotation...doesn't it make sense to you use arcane/aimed in short fights, too? (and if not, why^^)
regarding to upcomming steady nerf i think it'll be really profitable.
Here is WWSS of my first Patchwerk 25 downing using this Wow Web Stats
This was all using 16/51/4 spec
Hey I was impressed by your dps. Your gear is far superior to mine as of now but I had a few tips you might like.
Try swapping out your Kirin'Tor boots for the epicc Leather boots from Argent Crusade Rep which will hit cap you and your pet without the point in Focused Aim and increase both ur Agi and AP. I only suggest this specific piece of gear because its easily available and overlooked by hunters because it's leather.
Try moving the freed up FA point, and the very weak Wild Quiver points (3 points contributing just 2% of ur dps) to max out Marked for Death (1 point will give you at least 1% dmg increase) and go into Efficiency if you are using Viper even once in a fight-or perhaps the under-rated Piercing Shots since Steadyshot is your primary attack and would benefit from a 6% armor penetration which would probably increase your damage by more than the 2%.
I know Piercing Shots is not highly thought of but Wild Quiver is even worse. Especially if you are firing off 90 steadyshots in a fight.
I'm actually going to try ur spec with the suggestions I added.
-Shoot first, ask questions after you Feign Death-
Hey I was impressed by your dps. Your gear is far superior to mine as of now but I had a few tips you might like.
Try swapping out your Kirin'Tor boots for the epicc Leather boots from Argent Crusade Rep which will hit cap you and your pet without the point in Focused Aim and increase both ur Agi and AP. I only suggest this specific piece of gear because its easily available and overlooked by hunters because it's leather.
Try moving the freed up FA point, and the very weak Wild Quiver points (3 points contributing just 2% of ur dps) to max out Marked for Death (1 point will give you at least 1% dmg increase) and go into Efficiency if you are using Viper even once in a fight-or perhaps the under-rated Piercing Shots since Steadyshot is your primary attack and would benefit from a 6% armor penetration which would probably increase your damage by more than the 2%.
I know Piercing Shots is not highly thought of but Wild Quiver is even worse. Especially if you are firing off 90 steadyshots in a fight.
I'm actually going to try ur spec with the suggestions I added.
-Shoot first, ask questions after you Feign Death-
All theorycrafting on the matter of Piercing vs WQ has shown that WQ is dicidedly better always. Not perfect obviously, but Piercing Shots is just a horrible talent. I have said it before: "Piercing Shots didn't happen."
I think the reason Marked for Death isn't maxed is the current Steady Glyph issue. I'm not certain that going 4/5 will remove the bug, but apparently Skrunk believes so. What is known is that you don't benefit from the glyph with 5/5. So for the time being I wouldn't say he should go for it...
I was just wondering if anyone has thought about a Lock and Load based MM build. I was thinking that because MM has their sting up constantly, and because talented Arcane Shots do really good damage, specing down MM into the standard Chim shot build, then 18 points down SV could yield really good dps. It also saves us from wasting points in sub par talents like Piercing Shots and Wild Quiver. The build I was looking at was something like:
The LnL proc rate from serpent sting is 6%. You'll see roughly 1.5 procs every minute. Even with Imp Arcane, the nerfed 10% SS, LnL will, at best, return only 30-40% of the ~400 dps loss from a 16/51/4 spec.
As to the question up the page asking whether the SS glyph works with 4/5 MFD?
It doesn't. Any rank, be it 1/5 all the way to 5/5, breaks the glyph. Skrunk's gear is very close to mine. Note that his autoshot and steady shot damage per hit are so very close to mine as well. If SS glyph was working, his steady shots should be significantly higher than mine.
Edit: Whoops. I should include my WWS to compare: Wow Web Stats
12/04/08, 8:06 PM
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