I said in a previous post I have tested with and without barrage and it is not worth it ever.

you seem smart enough to look at the numbers so think about it this way, if Aimed Shot is 5- 7 % of your damage then you need to understand that getting barrage will only increase a low damage abilities damage 15 % :-(

drop all your hit gear for stuff with more AP / Agil / haste and go with 3 / 3 FA :-) working GREAT for me hehe

...

For those are saying Barrage isn't worth it - and this may have been brought up already, but:

Most of the posts saying this are citing Aimed Shot only comprises 6% or so of their total DPS. However, should we consider Piercing Shots in the equation? Having your Aimed Shot hit strong means if your Chimera fails to crit, Aimed will proc a really good Piercing Shots. Having that buffed seems nice, and the synergy effect might make a strong difference.

Any thoughts, or has this been debated already?

between chimera crits and steady crits my Piercing Shots nearly never fall off. I will test again but Piercing never seemed to change %age of my damage whether I had barrage or not. then again full buffed I have 40 + crit.

I also wanted to note that I ditched nearly all of my hit rating for other more powerful stats. Since you HAVE To spend X amount of points in marksman the 3 into focused aim is a much higher yield of +hit than wearing hit gear!

Basically hit is always an expensive stat in gear equations so if you can get 160 hit then take the three filler talents ANYWAY and stick em in Focused Aim shazam! you are fatter and happier with stats like haste / agil / Rap / crit / armor pen.

try it

Piercing shots is NOT a static amount. It works exactly like Deep Wounds so every proc will tick for its full amount, whether or not it's procced recently does not matter.

Also, it seems that we are debating Barrage as if we are putting the bare minimum amount of points into the MM tree, which almost no spec I've seen posted recently is. I'm running with a 7/57/7 spec right now with a 16/55/0 Dual Spec which leaves PLENTY of extra talent points within the MM tree to fit all the talents that I want, including Barrage (and FA for that matter). We all KNOW that it isn't that great of a talents, but it's a buff, and it's not hard to pick up considering it's place in the tree. It is also much better for your DPS than say, Imp. Hunter's Mark

I've seen this rotation branded about a few times in this thread but I'm not sure about it. Are you saying that you do 1 rotation, hit rapid fire and then readiness, then do the rotation again? For me I open with SrS, then RF > CS > Arcane > Aimed > Steady..until RF is finished, then I do readiness > RF and repeat. In my mind that sounds like you get more RF time, which is espiecally good if you spec for RR using my rotation (unless of course, you meant the same as me).

Another thing I've been pondering but not tested yet, is to open "slowly" and wait for my [Fury of the Five Flights]trinket to fully stack before going full RF. This should get me more AP when i'm going faster and also give the tank more time to build up aggro. It will also allow us to get more mana back with RR as if we pop RF at the start when we're at 100% we could me wasting a little mana. I found this delayed start especially usefull on the new VoA10 boss, popping RF when the first add gets overcharged.

And one other note, I like to spec Barrage & Imp Barrage. Any boss with add's or on trash this is a big help. The only differences we have are Barrage & imp Barrage vs. imp SS and FA. On single tagets are you sure that the bonus damage from Imp SS + gear benefits > Barrage & Imp Barrage? To me, with most fights now requiring movement, Imp Steady is of lower value than a higher % crit Aimed with Piercing Shots.

Before anyone says it, no I haven't tested with the spread sheet - it doesn't work on my Mac.

With rapid recuperation you probably want to wait a rotation or two to pop your first RF as the extra mana serves little purpose if you're already full.

Piercing shots stacks. Every Aimed, every Steady, and every Chimera you can get in increases the DOT damage. Which is why by the way, if you look at the Auriya fights Strungout, your Piercing Shots ticks were so much higher (100). Your numbers are skewed by Volleys and Multishots on a boss with multiple sections which enhances the value of Multishot over Aimed as well.

But you all do as you please and don't take Barrage or complain about it. My guess is the tree is bloated enough to where Barrage / Imp. Barrage will eventually be combined. And if not, I don't mind. I find Barrage a valuable talent far over FA which is worthless when most of the best in slot gear you can get has enough hit rating on it to cap you.

As a reminder, 3 talents spent in Imp. Barrage is increasing the value of Piercing Shots by 5.49% or 1,83% per point.

I have a speccing Dilemma i hope the community can advise me with.
i have a spec 7/54/8, with 2 points to spare... The BM 7 is the 5 AotH and 2 in FF, the 8 in SV is 3 in Hawkeye, 3 in IT and 2 in SI. My Dilemma lies with the choice i have for my last 2 points, whetheer too put it in Efficiency for 6%, Combat Experience for 4% in Agi and Int, 2 in ISS, or another 2 in IT. I do have 2/2 in Rapid Recuperation and up till respeccing 3/5 in efficiency as i do (even in raids) have some mana issues. I think Combat Experience is overated so im leaning towards either 5/5 IT or the 2 points in efficiency. 3/5 Efficency along with 2/2 Rapid Recuperation kept me relatively mana free in raid situations, but im wondering if 2/5 efficiency with 2/2 rapid recuperation is cutting it too fine and that i should try and go for an all out dps talent. Im sorry for the poorly written explanation, but im hoping someone can decipher it and help me come to a conclusion. Thank You in advance. BTW no im not willing to consider dropping"any" points outta Hawkeye, its one of my best dps talents .

Going by last night's Ignis numbers I would be increasing 7% of my damage by 5% for three talent points. Personally, I don't consider that a particularly good investment.

Small advice on readiness: Get a chimera shot off then use it.

I have Rapid fire in a macro with my racial and trinkets so what I do is go thru a rotation or two, with a proc of Mirror of truth as the determining factor of whether I fire of RR after the first or second set, Then it's RR, chimera, readiness, chimera and the rest, RR 15 secs later.

The Uldar raids I have been in, so far, replenishment is not up 100% of the time (must be all the moving fine in Naxx), so I have been going back and forth between a wolf and a wind serpent. Roar of recovery makes a big difference, and the pet's dps has been good, since we have been engaged with bosses right up to most enrage timers, giving feeding frenzy time to make a difference.

My problem has been threat generation, in which a chimera crit during RR is a guaranteed waste of a GCD with a MD or FD.

I have always been a proponent of FA, even before it also provided pet hit since depending on your gear/spec/latency/FPS/playing style, you could possibly get more DPS with it and that each person should evaluate its benefits for their situation. Likewise, I think that for a lot of situations folks may be better off with 0/3 FA or somewhere in between. FA is one of those siuational talents, so I think that we should avoid making absolute statements about it.

I also agree that for buffing Aimed Shot, Barrage is not that good of a talent, although its not that bad either. However, Barrage is great for buffing your AoE. And there is still a lot of AoE situations in Ulduar where the points in Barrage (but not Improved Barrage) can be worth it.

I had previously been avoiding points in Barrage because of its lackluster benefit to Aimed Shot, but after a week in Ulduar and seeing the AoE situation, I decided to look into speccing into Barrage with getting those points from FA since I have plenty of good hit gear at the moment. Sure I lost a little single target DPS (about 50 at most) to get hit capped without FA (I am gemming for 24 hit rating, which I usually try to avoid doing), but I am more than making up for that small loss in single target DPS by the much greater amount of DPS I am doing in AoE situations, which seems to have made the parts of the instance I have done a little easier.

As Scotch pointed out, this statement is misleading. IB does not increase your DPS by 1.83% per point as your statement may make some people believe. You may be aware of this already, but just to make sure everyone else knows, IB is increasing the benefit of PS by 1.83% per points. Considering that PS is only about 8% of your DPS, IB is only increasing your DPS by about 0.15% per point per that affect. Of course, than number does not include the increase in your Aimed Shot and AoE damage from it too, but the value is still well less than 1% per point total.

Having fought everthing in Ulduar (except Algalon), I would say the Hawk Eye is going to be a useful talent on a number of bosses in the zone (particularly on Yogg-Saron and General). Yogg's phase one feels like an obstacle course, and the extra range would allow me to shoot all the way to the middle without crossing clouds (if you haven't fought him, believe me, clouds are bad mmkay?). It may not be worth the points on 100% of all fights but it might be a nice dual spec. It might even be worth it in your main spec. You just have to balance what your giving up for it.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
In this case all I gave up was one point in Barrage and the two floater points I had thrown into ISS on a whim. Given the fact that ISS isn't very good anymore and the continuing conversation about the why barrage is bad, I don't think that I gave up to much to pick up the extra range.

Wrong, just plain wrong.

In Ulduar there are a number of fights where the boss moves around or it is an advantage to stay at long range. This increases your dps uptime by a lot.

Last week I did Ulduar without hawk eye and then this week I drop 3 points from improved tracking for hawk eye, with no gear upgrades, ended up with a significant dps upgrade. Anyone who tells you not to take hawk eye is a person who likes to run around a lot missing out on autoshots (wild quivers).

I'd be careful using the term 'plain wrong'

It is a matter of playstyle in the end, but i think you are going a bit too far claiming that your dps suffers alot if you have to stand 35 yards or closer to a boss instead of 41 yards. Apart from the obvious buffs you might miss out on (totems/aura's), I don't see where Hawk Eye would be mandatory for max dps. But let's take a look at the individual fights then; the only fights where i can see an use for Hawk Eye would probably be fights with lots of boss abilities targeted at specific people (meaning you can stand alone, further away, less chance to get random crap thrown at you);

Razorscale blue flame patches,
XT-tantrum boss the light bombs (although tactics differ per guild here, some would prefer room behind people for gravity bombs to move to),
Iron Council the whirlwinds/voidzones on floor (though again, you dont actually need a 35+ yard range to find a nice spot where you can stand alone),
Mimiron the rocket patches/proximity bombs (if a hunter triggers these somehow, i doubt having Hawk Eye would have been the answer :p )
General Vezax, the obvious shadow crashes and the Mark debuff, having Hawk Eye does mean you can stand further away from people.
Yogg Saron, this is the one fight where i can truely see Hawk Eye shine, not just in p1, but also in p2 where there is alot of movement required in the run, lots of target switching.

Overall, i cant say i find 3/3 Hawk Eye a worthy investment. There are multiple ways to get around the distance-related problems on the different encounters in Ulduar, usually it is correct positioning that's the answer (find a nice spot where you are comfortable, so you only have to focus on your own voidzones/bombs whatever). Perhaps for practice runs, for people unfamiliar with the fights its a nice talent to have, but at some point your spacial awareness has grown to a point where you can easily live without the talent.

Actually I pointed out that it was very useful on fights where the boss moves a lot.

Razorscale - not really useful, except for easy of picking up adds
Ignis - not useful
XT - not really useful.
Iron Council - very useful, there is a lot of AOE you can avoid, and when the boss starts to fly around the room, not having to run after him to keep range helps your dps.
Thorim - generally you want to sit at a cosy fire or sunbeam thingie. This gives you extra dps time since the boss is often kited in a circle and you will be out of range for some of that without it. Mean you will lose the buffs.
Aurinya - not really helpful
Hodir - not really helpful
Freya - helps a lot on hitting the adds, avoiding grenades
Mimiron - helps keeping range when you are avoiding rocket strikes, hitting the assault bots as they are kited, finding a nice place to dps when the doomfire is on the floor (hard mode)
General - seeing as how this guy is kited a lot with hawkeye you can stand on the left or right side of the room, relatively close to the middle and dps the boss 100% of the time as he is kited from one position to the other. If you don't have hawkeye you end up running quite often.
Yogg - P1 helps a lot, P2 not so much as you pointed out. P3 less distance to travel as you restore your sanity back.

Sniper Training doesn't work like that anymore. Hawk Eye is the same benefit to all specs now, just allows you to dps from further away.

Yeah, i do see how Hawk Eye can help you, but i personally dont have many range related issues in Ulduar, I dont see it as a 'mandatory' talent and as such i will not spec into 3/3 Hawk. However, each has their own playstyle ofcourse. By the way, i assume you mixed Thorim with Hodir just now? One thing i have noticed about the Hodir encounter is the fact most stuff happens in the front of the room (which isnt a big room anyway); all the buffs, npc, and boss stay there (i haven't seen the boss being kited yet, but tactics differ per guild i guess), so Hawk Eye would not add much in that fight, in my opinion. Anyway, feel free to spec 3/3 Hawk Eye if that increases your own dps. So yeah i admit, perhaps i should not have told Cammyboy to spec out of Hawk Eye if he feels the same about the talent you do

Don't forget Kalogarn now... Definately not a Hawk Eye encounter.

I'm with Pijn on his one. Even the Iron Council it is a 'so-so' talent for me. Half the time I'm out of range I'm runnng te other way anyway. While the majority of the fight I'm actually standing still just nuking. If we go by the 'easy' progress of bigger medium smaller, then it is mostly only in P3 I'm out of range. If the fight had been a pure version of that (would have been great fun btw), then Hawk Eye woul have been awesome, but it is only a relatively minor part.

Overall, very personal if it is something you want.

It is very personal yeah, i can imagine some people would like to spec Hawk Eye no matter what. It also depends alot on if you mainly raid 10 mans or 25 mans. Naturally in 10 man Ulduar there is alot more room on the fights to spread (spreading is the main reason i can see for speccing Hawk Eye, not 'high movement bosses' like Vezax which can be dealt with in other ways).

It's basically the same argument for speccing Barrage and Imp. Barrage just for the sake of having a stronger AoE in those situations you might need it. People claiming Ulduar is heavily reliant on AoE are seeing something i dont see; XT-006 requires small AoE OR just single target dps/slows on the walking bombs (the healbots have very little hp anyway, so 12% extra damage on Volley wont make a difference there), on Kolagarn there is a small element of AoE (again not a crucial part of the fight) where you must spend 5-10 seconds AoE on the rubble adds after killing right arm. Then we have Auriaya where you literally spend no more than 3 seconds killing the panther spawns which die to strong raid AoE, and perhaps the Freya wave where you get 10 flowers (which you wouldnt want to finish off with AoE anyway, but fair enough, you could AoE the first 75%).

People who reserve their dual spec for another raid spec can probably afford to have two MM specs, one with Hawk Eye/Barrage and one without. I on the other hand have a loltank BM solo spec to solo some old content and many people have a PvP talent as their second spec. I choose not to go for Hawk Eye and Barrage/Imp Barrage, since i do not rely on these talents, or want to rely on them. Each to their own i guess

I used to roll with MM x2 dualspec actually but ended up with Hawk Eye in my Surv build in the end.

The range bonus is pretty handy on the innitial Auriaya pull but also good in the General Vez encounter to dps from the black zones and not to mention p1 Yoggi while avoiding clouds and dps'ing on the move.