I can see why being haste "soft capped" has a benefit for MM hunters but currently i'm not gemming for haste because even if I was at the soft cap I can't see me hitting the shots dead on the GCD - so surely if you're 0.01 seconds out or 0.1 seconds out you're still delaying the next shot?

Assuming one isn't haste soft capped, what does this mean to the usefulness of the Glyph of Chimera Shot? Currently I around 470ish haste (I believe 553 is the soft cap) and I'm using CS, SrS and TSA Glyphs (There is no overlap from Shammies/DKs on my TSA in the 10 man raids my guild runs).

Whatever caused his steady shot rotation to be higher dps, it is not likely an extended combat length. Using more and lower-dps shots (like steadies) over a longer time may increase damage done, but it shouldn't yield higher dps than using fewer and higher-dps shots in a proportionally shorter fight.

DPS is damage per second, and is unrelated to the actual amount of time gathering data (other than minimizing the effects of the RNG). The test being shorter (due to greater mana consumption) can effect overall damage, but not DPS.

The DPS shown on any test is directly related to the time actually. It's the exact reason a 2 min patchwork shows higher DPS than a 3 min Patchwork. The shorter the test/fight, the "longer" you're under haste effects, therefore inflating numbers. So yes, a shorter test WILL show his DPS as being higher than a longer one.

There's also another small consideration with this example. Since he's one a target dummy that doesn't die, a parser will continue to record until he leaves combat. This can be anywhere from 5 seconds to possibly 20 if a serpent sting is up long enough. Since his tests were so short in the first place, that extra time at the end when he's not doing anything that is still being counted as DPS time, will count against him on the meter.

He will most definitely go OOM with faster with the better rotation, and therefore the ratio of time spent DPS'ing to standing idle will be will be smaller, making that idle time more significant for the meter. Normally this wouldn't be so much of an issue, but I know how fast MM hunters go OOM on a dummy, and with that short of a period this problem will skew the DPS results.

In a higher-latency setting (800-1200ms), I'm finding that this is working out to be more reliable dps for me on the target dummy (around 3300-3600 dps over a handful of tests):
SrS, CS, AS, SS, SS, SS, SS (repeat)

The whack-a-mole rotation using Aimed and Arcane Shot when they're off CD is better on paper, but with higher latency it's difficult to weave steady shot in properly. Also, I wanted an MM off-spec that would be lighter on mana for certain fights where I'd be spending time on non-JoW targets. Figured I'd kill two birds with one stone here:
Mana-Lite MM (high latency)

Also, on a side note, I wanted to test out Concussive Barrage (2/2). Looks like the debuff shows up on the boss level target dummy. Depending on the rotation, you could get 2 steadies in with that up. Does it work on bosses? And are the returns from an extra 350 damage per rotation worth much of anything? Looking to squeeze as much out of steady as possible on a rotation like this...

My ending DPS on the boss dummy from full to 0 mana (double rapid fire, no pots, flasks, external buffs). The network I'm on is horrible, so some raid nights I sit around 800-1200ms. Other nights I'm at 30ms. Just trying to come up with a rotation that will queue a bit easier for laggy nights.

(edit: no kill shots)

I am still confused on the whole benefit of the Chimera Shot glyph vs.The Hawk glyph. When testing on a target dummy the Hawk glyph comes out as a dps increase for me. I sit around 270ms latency and I am 7/57/7. Why is everyone saying that the Chimera glyph is necessary?

GCD is 1.5 secs, When haste effects are active, your Steady Shot will most likely be at GCD. Given that Chimera Shots CD is 10 secs; best case scenario is that you're shooting off your Chimera Shot .5 secs after it comes off CD. Because your Steady Shot is not always at GCD but is still close because of passive haste from gear, those extra tenths add up to the point where you're shooting Chimera a full second later than it should be (if not more). When you drop Chimera to 9 secs, it fits tightly with the GCD, meaning in ideal circumstances you can shoot it every 9 secs as opposed to ever 10.5 secs. As Chimera is our highest damage shot and accounts for a significant portion of our DPS this adds a lot of damage over the course of the fight. Even when Steady is not at GCD, you will still be shooting it at less than 10 secs and (given that under ideal rotation its getting shot 10.5 without glyph) that is still saving you time.

Currently, your best Glyphs for MM are Serpent (100% Best Glyph for MM), Chimera, and either Kill Shot or Glyph of IAotH. As the effectiveness of Kill shot is dependent on time under 20%, Kill Shots effectiveness holds an inverse ratio to overall raid DPS as lower DPS means more time under 20%.

As I said before, latency doesn't have a gigantic effect on your rotation as GCD is triggered client side. It just effects when the damage/effect is done to the target.

MM Hunter Rotations with Glyphs that affect Cooldowns

This post examines rotations (I use the word rotation loosely - hunters have no set rotation, but rather prioritizations. As MM spec, it will be the closest thing hunters have to a set rotation).
Rotations are only apparent in Marksman hunters, because we have one extra shot more than the other two builds (Black Arrow is more of a Pseudo-shot so I wont acknowledge it).
While it doesn't sound like a lot, that one extra shot matters a lot because the shots are on separate cooldowns which WILL overlap with each other.
On top of that, there are new glyphs which lower the cooldown on a couple of our shots.
That being said, I sought out this information and here is what I found.

I made a basic Microsoft Excel spreadsheet that shows all the possible rotations with the current 3.1 glyphs that reduce the cooldown of our shots.



=========>> SPREADSHEET LINKY HERE <<=========



What I did with this Spreadsheet:

• The average boss encounter is about 6 minutes-ish. Each square represents 1.5 sec of GCD, for a total of 240 shots over that 360 second period. I mapped out different rotations using that timeframe, with different glyphs and different prioritizations.

Why I made this spreadsheet (and why you might read it):

• 1. I was bored.
  2. I wondered what the best glyph set would be, with all these new MM glyphs.
  3. I wondered what prioritization I should use with these new glyphs.
  4. I wondered how important Steady Shot was, and how much of a factor it contributed to the rotation.
  5. There was a debate on [Glyph of Chimera Shot] not being one of the top 3 glyphs for MM, solely based upon the data of a different spreadsheet, and not with testing. Having tested it (and its great), I now want to plug it in a spreadsheet.

Note: This spreadsheet assumes that you are haste capped at 523 haste rating (15% ASPD) to allow for 1.5 sec Steady Shot casts.

It is also under the assumption that there is zero latency, and you are in a controlled situation where you could pull this rotation off (Patchwerk). In reality, you will not get that many steady shots, but you should be using /stopcasting on your Chimera Shot, Aimed Shot, and Arcane Shot buttons anyways.


Note: [Glyph of Aimed Shot] (Link doesnt work) [Glyph of Aimed Shot] reduces the CD to 8 secs, but because GCD is 1.5 secs, I treated the glyph as a 9 sec CD. (If you look at the spreadsheet, you notice that in reality, you will be casting Aimed Shot every 9 seconds at minimum, not 8. If you do end up casting it at 8 seconds, you have either clipped your Steady Shot, or stood still for 1 whole second.)

Note: I haven't calculated [Glyph of Multi-Shot] because I don't fully understand the mechanics of that 0.5 sec cast. I only use Multi-Shot situationally (Kolo, Mimi P4, Yogg P2). I'm under the current assumption that it makes it a 2 sec spell because of GCD, which would be living hell to calculate on this spreadsheet. Besides, this post is about MM hunters, which means you should be Aimed Shotting in your rotation, not Multi-Shotting.


While some talents in MM are core talents, there is a large variance among the hunter community as to which other talents should, or shouldn't be maxed out. Improved Steady Shot vs Improved Barrage vs Wild Quiver, Efficiency vs Rapid Recuperation.
That being said, this info will come in handy when trying to make choice between the above talents in your MM build.

Eventually, I'd like to test the DPS of [Glyph of Steady Shot] vs [Glyph of the Hawk], but finals week and such are > me now.


(Yes, I realize there is no summary in this post. Why? Im letting YOU look at the spreadsheet and make your own opinion about it.)

Your assumptions of being Haste Capped and 0 latency are pretty farm from the standard. This is especially true because of how your Haste greatly determines whether or not the Glyph of Chimaera is beneficial.

Since you said you are currently time limited, it might be beneficial for someone, with your blessing, to explore how incorporating a Current Haste and/or Latency setting and possibly a Test Rotation button like what we see in Shandara's spreadsheet would impact the sheet. I must say I prefer how Shandara has done it, but hopefully others will find your sheet helpful, mate.

From reading this thread it sounds like Serpent Sting is the only "dead cert" glyph to go for. For the other 2 (please correct me if i'm wrong) you will need to consider additional factors:

1) Chimera Shot - Take if you're soft haste capped only
2) IAotH - If not Haste Capped > Chimera Glyph
3) TSA - Take if no-one else in your raid will override TSA (Blood DKs/Enh Shamans)
4) Kill Shot - Only beneficial on longer boss fights
5) Aimed Shot - Not worth it due to overlapping Cooldowns
6) Steadyshot - Only useful on bosses where you can stand and shoot (moving = no steady)

However, the Chimera/IAotH & Haste issue only comes into play in fights where you're not moving and if you're in Ulduar you'll know that there's not many of these. When you're moving you'll be doing far less steady shots/auto shots so you'll benefit less from haste, so the Chimera glyph will probably be beneficial.

I'm not saying I've got the "right" choice but I'm currently going with TSA (no blood DKs/Enh Shammies in my 10 man raid), Chimera and Serpent Sting while going through Ulduar.

My guild have only just scratched the surface of ulduar but here's the WWS of our first go at it:Wow Web Stats

Please note that in most of the fights, as a guild officer, i'm usually the one "running around doing things" so I don't really get the chance to stand and pew pew much. In Ignis I was the one trying to shatter the constructs (not easy really had to bank on Chimera critting - which it did all but once), firing the harpoons (Razorscale) or dealing with the adds (Deconstructor) so my numbers for auto/steady shot vs instant casts & volley will be different to anyone not doing those.

And one last thing, sometimes by doing all these things it means we have lower DPS but it can be more fun too!

I tend to use Glyph of Chimera Shot for two purposes. The first is really a given, a shorter CD on one of our main Marksman abilities. The other reason is because of Serpent Sting. If you imagine a fight and GCD's :

secs : shot hitting target

0.0 : CS + Serp refreshed

1.5 : ArcS

3.0 : Aimed + Serp tick

4.5 : Steady cast

6.0 : Steady hits + second steady cast + Serp tick

7.5 : Second Steady hits + ArcS

9.0 : CS + serp refreshed

This is an assumption with Steady Shot at 1.5 seconds, no latency, and no loss due to reaction times. If you take these factors into consideration, your CS will hit the target just after 9 seconds since your previous CS hit and refreshed Serpent Sting. This means that you will refresh your Serpent Sting just after its third tick. If you were to use a different glyph instead of CS, your CD will be 10 seconds, and the earliest your CS will potentially hit is 10.5 seconds after your previous CS hit (assuming of course that you fire a shot, presumably an extra steady, on the 9 second GCD).

With an extra steady not being haste capped, you are potentially going 5 seconds (or possibly longer depending on your haste, up to 5.99 seconds) every refresh without a Serpent Sting tick.

Now I'm not saying saying this is a significant dps increase, but it should be considered with the glyph when comparing it to another. I'm fairly sure this theory is right, I apologise if it isn't. Also apologise for the format of my example, not a great poster so it's the best I can do to illustrate.

This link indicates that Serpent Sting ticks every 3 seconds regardless of when Chimera Shot lands:
Marksman questions

EDIT: Actually, I see some conflicting reports here and there. Anyone have a combat log parse readily available to verify Serpent Sting's behavior when refreshed by Chimera Shot?

Looking through my logs, Serpent Sting seems to tick every 3 seconds regardless of when CS lands.

Sample log:
[20:26:43.695] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 754
[20:26:46.664] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 838
[20:26:49.649] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 754
[20:26:52.665] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 670
[20:26:53.274] Thorim's Serpent Sting is refreshed by Lighty
[20:26:55.665] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 947
[20:26:58.697] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 757
[20:27:01.682] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 852
[20:27:02.557] Thorim's Serpent Sting is refreshed by Lighty
[20:27:04.682] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 923
[20:27:07.651] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 830
[20:27:10.699] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 737
[20:27:11.746] Thorim's Serpent Sting is refreshed by Lighty
[20:27:13.684] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 922
[20:27:16.731] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 830
[20:27:19.684] Lighty Serpent Sting Thorim 830

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

Serpent Sting does indeed seem to tick every 3 seconds regardless of the time Chimera Shot hits.

Did we get a blue response? Is it working as intended, or bugged, the 2 piece T8 set bonus and chimera?

I did an analysis like yours around 3.1 coming out to try to determine the optimum rotation and glyph set for my situation. Like what you did, I started with the ideal situation of all shots on the GCD and no reaction time or latency. I also tried some other permutations than what you had to see how the rotations are impacted by dropping shots out. The conclusion for that idealized situation was that the Chimera glyph was definitely an improvement.

Of course, as we all know, we do not play under the ideal situation. Even with assuming the ideal stand-still non-interrupt fight (which these are rare), we still do not have the ideal situation. Many hunters are not haste soft-capped (I am not nor plan to be because of all the stats I have to give up to get it). Also none of us execute with 0 human reaction time (I think I am fast but not that fast).

Thus, I took my analysis a little farther and theorized the same rotations/glyphs but with factoring in not being haste soft-capped and reaction time. For this part of the analysis, I assumed being haste soft-capped 50% of the time from Quick Shots, Rapid Fire, Blood Lust, Speed Potions, etc. I realize that I am actually at the haste soft-cap more that 50% of the time but decided to use this more conservative estimate since it simplified the modeling since I could assume that on-average basically every other cycle I had Steady Shot at the softcap. For reaction times, I assumed that you had 0 reaction time still in some cases where you could queue the next shot up during the end of the Steady Shot cast but that shots after instants or coming off of CD has some non-zero reaction time. Thus, I continued the analysis with trying various Steady Shot durations greater than the GCD and human reaction times in factors of 0.1.

I never shared the results of this analysis since I never completed it because it was becoming too time consuming and painful (much more difficult when every shot is not on a GCD boundary and switching shots may push out or pull ing subsequent shots) and because I got far enough to realize my theory that the Chimera glyph is not always beneficial. It is only beneficial situationally. In instances near the ideal, it outperformed other glyph selections. In other instances it still provided a DPS gain over no glyph but a negative DPS difference from other glyph options. In orther instances, it provide no DPS gain depending on how the rotation was performed with the delays in Steady Shot and reaction time.

My next step was to test it for my situation. I never bothered to test it on a target dummy since that is nothing like a real 25-man raid situation. I had planned to test with and without it in 25-man Ulduar raids and then parse the data. Unfortunately, the week after Ulduar came out, my old guild decided not to do 25-man raids anymore (and has not been doing 10-mans seriously either). Since I raid with real-life friends and have had to wait for them to decide what they want to do, I have not joined a new 25-man raiding guild until recently. I plan to get baseline data without the glyph hopefully this week and with it next week. Hopefully, I will have results to share in a couple weeks.

In summary, the benefits of the Chimera glyph are situational. No one should blindly accept other's analyses for it (pro or con) since it probably is not applicable to their situation.

Since the devs are looking into the T8S2 bonus in regards to Chimera Shot (leading to a hope/expectation that they will mesh nicely) and the new weapon DPS boost to top end ranged weapons, I think it is getting close to solidifying MM as the top DPS spec if mana isn't an issue.

The T8 bonus should produce a rather noticeable DPS boost, and weapon DPS is more important to MM than either BM or Surv. Hmmm... might have to try MM out some time soon. Thank goodness Agi is the best gemmed stat.

Anyone know if the first part of the MfD talent works when on a target marked by another hunter? I did some searching and found Starfox's testing (included below) proved that the second part is passive and always active but searching didn't find any conclusive results on the first part of the MfD talent. Has anyone got conclusive data on this?

Well stated sir.

What this sheet had to offer is to show you how much the glyphs affect your rotation when you are under an optimum environment. Granted, you will never be in a perfect world, but this sheet is more of a guideline as to see to what degree the glyphs will affect you. This is a pretty basic spreadsheet, and it offers nothing more than that.

But even in its basic form, you can still reap some useful information. Glyphed for Chimera Shot, it still shows that you will gain a maximum of 5 chimera shots per 3 minutes in combat (lot more damage than it sounds)


As for what Glyphs to choose, here are my deductions:


Data was gathered through my WWS data from 10m Ulduar. (We normally have 1 of each class, so we have a good majority of all the raid buffs available.)

WWS 10m Ulduar Day 1 - Razor, XT Hard Attempts but regular clear, Kolo, Auri, Hodir Hard Mode Clear, Thorim Hard Mode Attempts
WWS 10m Ulduar Day 2 - All Thorim Hard Mode Clear, Freya 1 Elder Up attempts but regular clear, Ignis, Vezax
We did full clear, but for some reason, WWS bugged out (XT fights bugged, Mimi nor Yogg not apparent, etc)


Glyph of Trueshot Aura
Both days, Aimed Shot did 6% of overall dmg. Day one, that was 570k. Now if we add in 10% crit from trueshot, the damage will get boosted by 66922 from the Aimed Shot itself, and a little over 20k with Piercing Shots (Mangle is up). This totals to about 87k difference.

Summary: Surprisingly, a very solid glyph, doing about 87k more damage (roughly 1%). But take note, that I am specced into Improved Barrage. Under this assumption, I will use it as an excuse as not to further crunch numbers.


Glyph of Aimed Shot
No. Just no.

Wont even calculate it. Already semi-mana starved as it is, even with early Double Rapid Fires and Mana Tide Totems (No wisdom nor Judgment of Wisdom in 10m). Even in 25, I dont see what this glyph has to offer that Glyph of Trueshot Aura wouldnt. And AFAIK, as long as Trueshot Aura is active prior to the other 10% AP buffs, they will NOT knock off Trueshot. Of course, they wont stack, but nonetheless, Trueshot is not knocked off. This seems to be the case since I recall still having Trueshot up after FDing wipes on 25m.)

Summary: NO. You are MM. You won't have the mana to support this. Personally, if I had the mana to support this, I'd spend that mana by adding Silencing Shot into my rotation and Glyphing for Trueshot Aura, which provides a flat, non-situational dmg increase.


Glyph of Steady Shot
As Marksman?! In Ulduar?! Hahahahaha.

Ok lets just try quick math in case this glyph is actually good. Steady does 5~6% dmg at 470k. 10% of that is a piece of shit. End of story.

Summary: Shouldnt even be considered. +.5% dmg. Could potentially be higher if permanently soft haste capped, but that should contribute at most, .25% dmg increase, at the coast of crit or arpen. Could potentially be higher if you dont clip Steady Shot, but that means you are pushing back other shots.


Glyph of Chimera Shot
Chimera did 15% of overall damage both days, not even counting the contribution from Piercing Shots. Calculating day 1, it was 862k dmg. Without the glyph, we'd be looking at a loss of about 87k damage (1%) looking only at the Chimera shot. I will not calculate the Chimera Serpent portion, nor Piercing Shots contribution, because I feel that this is enough data to know that this glyph is a good choice.
Note: I calculated that 87k damage according to my playstyle - clip Steady Shot for Chimera if cast time is great. Any losses in damage will not be seen in Chimera Shot damage, but rather, expressed in Steady Shot damage (with the losses being minimal, since there is much movement involved)

Summary: Good glyph, doing about 87k more damage (1%) WITHOUT calculating Chimera Serpent, nor Piercing Shots.
For all you haters, you can argue that this is a situational glyph, but that >1% dmg increase is consistent for all bosses throughout Ulduar.
(Well, almost all. Stupid WWS has been buggy recently. Sometimes doesn't show Mimi or Yogg. Does anyone know why? It sometiems bugs for 10m and 25m, omitting boss encounters. And this is concurrent with 3 other people who uploaded data to WWS)


Glyph of Kill Shot
Interesting. Lets pick Day 2, where Kill shot did more DPS (401,932/8,534,955 dmg as opposed to Day 1's 354,715/9,635,105).
Looking at Day 2, under optimal circumstances, this glyph yields up to a 160k increase in damage Looking at Day 1, this yields similar results at 142k. But WAIT, when I think about it, theres a lot of bosses where I use Kill Shot on adds for killing blows (in which the extra damage is sometimes "wasted" a la overkill. So lets parse individual bosses. Iron Council Hard Mode Clear yields an increase of up to 1.6% dmg, with Auriaya looking at a 1.3% increase. These results are amazing. And when you think about it, that extra "wasted" overkill damage isnt completely wasted. Because on fights like Freya, being able to kill shot every 9 seconds instead of 15 seconds helps on Exploding lashers (not to mention that Distracting Shot CD is 8 Sec, so it works out great).

Summary: Up to 2% dmg increase, but realistically looking at 1.4~1.5ish% on stand-and-shoot bosses, and non-calculatable on adds (but definately an increase). But after using it extensively, this glyph is great. Looks to be a prime choice for MM too, not just SV.


Glyph of the Hawk
I have no numbers! =(
I will be using Glyph of the Hawk this week in 10m Ulduar, over either Kill Shot or Chimera Shot, whichever is cheaper on AH (most likely Kill Shot cuz I wanna further play around with the 9 second Chimera rotation).
I'm wondering how it will fare up vs Glyph of Chimera. If the numbers are comparably close, I'll do all the little nitpicky calculations I skipped on Glyph of Chimera.


Summary:
Trueshot Aura: 1% dmg. Solid Damage Glyph. I am specced into Improved Barrage. Assumes Mangle is up for Piercing Shots.
Aimed Shot: No. Uses way too much mana, highly situational. Trueshot provides a greater, static dmg increase.
Steady Shot: .5%+ dmg. Piercing Shots not calculated, but will still not even compare to Trueshot, Chimera, nor Kill Shot. Could potentially be up to .25% higher, but at the cost of achieving haste cap through sacrifice of crit or arpen. Also can increase damage output by not clipping this shot, but this pushes back all the other shots.
Chimera Shot: >1% dmg. Does about 1% damage without counting Chimera Serpent, nor Piercing Shots. Assumes optimum circumstances. Assumes Mangle is up for Piercing Shots.
Kill Shot: 1~2% dmg. Varying calculations for adds, trash, and bosses. But nonetheless, a major dmg increase.
Hawk: No calculations as of yet!

My weapons of choice have always been Serpent Sting, Kill Shot, and Chimera Shot.
After seeing these calculations, I will still retain this setup, unless hawk proves to be zOMGAMAZINGLY spactacoolahr.
Heres a thought though: Stacking crit gear and glyphing for Trueshot. Any takers?

Reading all the post here, I must be one of the lonely hunters that use [Glyph of Volley]...no one else have mana issues when clearing trash mobs?