Pijn

It's a joke for a 4 piece set bonus; a mere 90 dps on average is far from impressive. A four setpiece bonus needs to be mindblowing. It would have made more sense if the 2 and 4 set bonuses had been swapped around.

Another thing regarding t8 set bonuses; i think it would have made more sense if the 2 set bonus had been 'increases SrS duration by three (or six) seconds'. This would make the bonus just as viable for MM hunters as it would make it for Surv/BM. But that's an entirely different thing, unimportant for this discussion.

Edit: said 90 AP on average, which would make it an even worse bonus

 

Anindor

Was the T7 4p 'mindblowing'? If the bonus was insane then hunters would jump an insane amount of DPS.

How do you get 90AP from that? Wowhead is not always correct but, assuming wowhead is correct, the buff still has a 15s duration making it 1/4 uptime 600AP. That comes out to 150 not 90.

 

Pijn

You are right, the t7 4p was in fact disappointing (although im quite sure some hunters found alot of use in it). It was a very situational bonus, and 'situational' is a word that should be affiliated with a 2p set bonus, not a 4p bonus.

Although come to think of it; Blizz doesn't want people to go blindly for the setpieces without thinking of statistics, gear related choices. They do want people to go for the hundreds of other items they added to the Ulduar loot table. Following that logic it doesn't make sense they designed some of the (four) set bonuses to be as mandatory as they are now (rogue/mage come to mind).

 

Whitemane

I don't think I ever found a use for the 4t7 bonus, it was bad to the point that I never cared about it. So in light of that the 4t8 is definitely a step forward, but I agree it seems to pale in comparison to some other bonus'.

I think you're right in your assumption on Blizzard intentions, but still the current bonus is going to be good enough that you can't change gear around and do it one better. Hunter itemization is bad and the only benefit from off tier pieces as it is are at best arp instead of haste, which is a small dps increase. For better or for worse, I think we're stuck with this one.

 

stickums

At this point the set bonus is just that, a bonus. The pieces themselves are already BiS for the most part so it's not like you are debating dropping them for something else.

 

Argg0

Been wondering... is spell penetration worth getting?

I'm seeing lots of parcial resists on my chimera, serpent and arcane shots. Maybe getting some back enchant or gem?

If this was already discussed, could someone point me where?

 

Pijn

I don't think the stat Spell Penetration affects our physical shots (even though their damage is part of a damage school - nature, arcane, fire). Even if it did, the damage gain would not outweigh the loss of AP/crit/agility.

Edit; I was mistaken, Spell Penetration does affect Chimera/Arcane/Explosive. I did a quick search (which you should have done! ) and several posts in the survival thread mentioned it. Nevertheless, i still think for a PvE hunter it really isnt't worth going for this particular stat.

 

Mugsley

Spell Pen shouldn't affect Chimera. It merely deals 125% weapon dmg (physical). I can see it affecting the Chimera secondary effect, though.

Otherwise, Arcane and Explosive are the only shots/spells we have that Spell Pen would affect (barring traps). Basically, if it doesn't say "deals X Arcane/Nature/Fire/Frost/Holy damage" then Spell Pen does not affect it.

 

DMCASHEW04

I'm not saying you should go spell pen but I've had resists on everything(chim shot, chim ss shot, arcane, sps, and even wild quiver).

So yes, all this is dmg. done by a school therefore affected by spell pen

 

ankah

Yes and no. if the values of the set bonuses are not calculated correctly in the spreadsheet, then their value change. In other words, they are best in slot for themselves AND the set bonus. Just about every slot has a better substitute, but the bonus pushes it over the top.

On the spreadsheet thread, they are talking about the 4 piece bonus using a formula that perhaps is not accurate. If that is the case, I am willing to say that hard mode drops will surpass the set pieces themselves, such as [Gloves of the Steady Hand] vs [Conqueror's Scourgestalker Handguards] and so on.

@bolverick: I would recommend going BM until 80, or you may have issues with threat in relation to pet, and going oom often. At least this is what a guildy told me, after getting his to 80 last week.

 

Nakari

About Spell Penetration: It's a useless stat, as you can't negate the level based partial resists (which you were seeing). The only case were Spell Penetration would work at all are bosses with higher than normal resistance values. I read some speculation that Ignis has higher than normal fire resistance, though Curse of Elements should take care of that. Even if not, Spell Penetration would still be a very poor stat to socket or enchant.

 

stickums

Well the 2 piece still has good value, and at the very least 4pc is worth ~150AP if it is indeed 25% uptime (15s out of 60).

Is there a way to turn off the set bonus in the spreadsheet?

 

ankah

Thats the thing, they are talking about a 10% uptime. I dont think there is a way to turn it off, but you could make identical custom gear and plug it in, which I have yet to do. I am sure we will all know more about it in a week or two, and more get to that bonus(only have 2 pieces myself).

 

• Varance

Update: 2T8 now properly factors into Chimera Shot damage.

 

• CureFC

Edit: Nevermind, saw your post in the spreadsheet thread.

I was one of the people posting in the SV thread about 4pc T8. In a limited number of parses (an important note) I'm seeing at best ~13% uptime on Ignis where I'm standstill shooting for 3.5 minutes, and more like 9-10% uptime on other fights. This was as marks, I just posted in the SV thread because that's where the discussion was. Based on the datamined Wowhead proc rate and testing done by others, I'm fairly certain that it is worse than the spreadsheet version (and very poor in general, especially compared to some of the other classes 4pc).

 

sihyunie

4T8 never seemed that impressive. Yes, it is 600 AP proc, but having chance to proc off steady shot is very ineffective. There are reports saying that ICD on the proc is 60 sec, not 45. Since we fire steady shot once every 3~4 sec (closer to 4 for SV), with 25% chance, you expect it to proc in about 16 sec after cooldown. So it's 10 sec buff expected to proc once every 76 sec, giving you expected uptime of approximately 13%, which matches what people have been seeing. So the proc averages out to be 79AP, which is pathetic for a 4 piece bonus (the spreadsheet estimates 1 AP to be ~.58dps, so it is ~46 dps increase). It will be even lower in real life thanks to fights not being stand and shoot and you will fire steady shot even less frequently. With 45 sec ICD, it seemed decent enough to use 4 piece, but with this new find, it'll may be worth using hard mode loots and just stick with 2 piece (I'm sure BiS thread will find this out once 4T8 is correctly implemented to the spreadsheet).

 

Whitemane

Actually the 2p bonus isn't even that impressive either, in my Ignis WWS I see Chimera Shot - Serpent and Serpent Sting for 7% and 6% respectively so the overall bonus to dps from the set bonus is 1.3% increase in dps. That's 75 dps approximately for MM hunters, decent but for survival and BM it's just outright bad really.

4p, as it now seems, is just about the same. God, when you look at it you can't help but feel shortchanged when these set bonus' were given out. Then I guess it's head + chest for us, then rest of the gear is off-tier.

 

Setsero

Minor correction. 25% probability of a proc with each attempt does not yield in average of 4 attempts of wait time. Not that it changes much with respect to actual value of the bonus, but it's a common miscalculation made. In average, it will be less than 4 attempts. In fact, you have almost 58% chance it will happen within first 3 attempts. 1-((1-0.25)^3)=0.578

 

RobotChicken

For a 2p set bonus, it's actually decent. 2p bonuses aren't meant to be overwhelmingly good.

 

Ashi

Actually, expected number of attempts with probability p of success is indeed 1/p:
In particular, with procrate p = 0.25, expected number of shots is 1/0.25 = 4.

Perhaps you are thinking about something else when you say "common miscalculation".

 

• Varance

The proc chance of 4T8 falls under the realm of binomial probability: chance of an event happening vs event not happening where each opportunity for the event to occur is independent. The probability of at least one proc off of 4 steady shots with a 25% proc chance would be 68.36%. That drops to 40.95% when you change the proc chance to 10%.

Either way, you're not going to be chaining together that many Steady Shots at a time as MM. 3 at best, with a 27.1% chance to proc between Chimera Shots.

Edit: BM is going to see more benefit from it based on more constant procs, but with as weak as the bonus is, I doubt it's worth dropping 2T7 to get it.

 

Ashi

Yes, of course (approximately). That has nothing to do with expected number of shots before success though, which was what the previous poster was insinuating. Arguing about expected number of shots before success purely based on the probability of something happening in the first n attempts is plainly unsound.

 

Starfox

You are mixing things up, EV and 'Chance of proc with X casts'
The EV of the proc occuring is exactly 4 SS with 25% chance and 10 SS with 10% chance.

Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.

 

• Varance

I suppose I should have said this in the first post. As Ashi said, any assumption based on expected value in relation to a raid encounter would be foolhardy, as the number of Steady Shots fired in your typical raid encounter is not going to be enough to satisfy the law of large numbers.

Edit: If the proc were something like "chance on auto shot" or "chance on crit", an assessment based on expected value would be more appropriate since the sample size would be much larger. But if you've got a good rotation as MM, you're going to be firing less than 110 steady shots in a tank and spank 6 min fight - and that's under the assumption that you're above the haste softcap and using as many of the 240 GCDs as lag permits.

 

bomzix

Varance,

What you are looking for in the 4pt proc is the avg number of tries until first sucess. Binomial is the avg number of "hits" in a fixed number of tries

Bi(n,p)
n = tries
p = prob. of sucess

Can't really really what the other function looks like but it doesn't matter how many tries you have, what you want to know is the avg waiting time for a proc after the ICD is over.

Going back to the APr ( Armor Pen ) thing... I see a lot of dps increase we I switch some AP and Crit for APr. I have 283 rating + Grim Troll proc ATM and you can see the increase, especially in a raid environment where your AP and Crit get big bonuses.