It depends on gear. With little to no ArP, the spreadsheet is going to put arcane ahead of aimed. Later into Ulduar aimed will most likely take over, at least as far as I can see.
I've only come to the conclusion based on the numbers from my own logs and I do have quite a bit of ArP by now and currently, aimed hits slightly harder than arcane but piercing shots is what makes it pull ahead. I've looked at the spreadsheet and the numbers are slightly confusing, aimed shot is WAY ahead of arcane even when looking at a PvP geared hunter. That seems entirely wrong, there must be some factor I'm not seeing in the final calculations. This makes it very difficult to estimate the actual crossover point, but my guess is that it's somewhere around BiS Naxx/EoE/OS gear levels.
I've only come to the conclusion based on the numbers from my own logs and I do have quite a bit of ArP by now and currently, aimed hits slightly harder than arcane but piercing shots is what makes it pull ahead. I've looked at the spreadsheet and the numbers are slightly confusing, aimed shot is WAY ahead of arcane even when looking at a PvP geared hunter. That seems entirely wrong, there must be some factor I'm not seeing in the final calculations. This makes it very difficult to estimate the actual crossover point, but my guess is that it's somewhere around BiS Naxx/EoE/OS gear levels.
Perhaps you are forgetting barrage / imp barrage? I will admit that I respecced to include those talents and didn't at first see just how much it improved aimed in relation to arcane. At my ArP level, even just dropping the 3 points I have in imp barrage is enough to make arcane and aimed almost the same, even though total DPS change is not that great.
You're also right about piercing shots, which is not going to show up in the shot rotation tab (maybe it should).
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
Perhaps you are forgetting barrage / imp barrage? I will admit that I respecced to include those talents and didn't at first see just how much it improved aimed in relation to arcane. At my ArP level, even just dropping the 3 points I have in imp barrage is enough to make arcane and aimed almost the same, even though total DPS change is not that great.
You're also right about piercing shots, which is not going to show up in the shot rotation tab (maybe it should).
Originally when looking at it I did not select Improved Barrage, that talent seems to be a split between hunters. Some people take it and some don't, but everyone seems to take Barrage. Spreadsheet lists Average Crit Damage as 9442,7 and it doesn't seem to be affected by Piercing Shots, which I had expected seeing as the damage was that high. Something fishy there?
Arcane Shot Average Crit Damage is listed as 6237,9 which seems just fine. It's a bit difficult to follow the factors going into the calculations, because the factors listed are not done so uniformly.
Originally when looking at it I did not select Improved Barrage, that talent seems to be a split between hunters. Some people take it and some don't, but everyone seems to take Barrage. Spreadsheet lists Average Crit Damage as 9442,7 and it doesn't seem to be affected by Piercing Shots, which I had expected seeing as the damage was that high. Something fishy there?
Arcane Shot Average Crit Damage is listed as 6237,9 which seems just fine. It's a bit difficult to follow the factors going into the calculations, because the factors listed are not done so uniformly.
The numbers on the calculations tab are without armour mitigation, which is why Aimed Shot is so high. For me with the current BiS MM set (which is an older set from the BiS thread) both Arcane/Aimed hit nearly the same post-armour.
That said, you think it's better to add each Piercing Shot proc to the shot it belongs to, rather than doing it separate as now?
The numbers on the calculations tab are without armour mitigation, which is why Aimed Shot is so high. For me with the current BiS MM set (which is an older set from the BiS thread) both Arcane/Aimed hit nearly the same post-armour.
That said, you think it's better to add each Piercing Shot proc to the shot it belongs to, rather than doing it separate as now?
For general information, I think it might be good to have it both places - both so you can see what Piercing Shots totals up as by itself (or maybe the talent will always be picked, which I suspect, and then it may not matter) and also added to the calculations in each shot. It would be nice if it would be possible to use the calculations tab to determine the strength of each shot, which would sort of necessitate adding the piercing shot contribution. Not considering armor on target seems a bit off in that regards, makes it quite difficult to compare the shots.
By having piercing shots explicitly show the contribution of each separate shot, we can also draw some conclusions for the TSA glyph and the Improved Barrage talent: the increased critical % for aimed shot has a direct impact to the PS talent. I would also like to note that even though the bleed effect from PS is not affected by armor, the calculation of each (re)application is, since it's proportional to shot damage.
I'd be cautious about mentioning the TSA overwriting bug, I got an infractions for talking about when it last happened to me in Ulduar and 2 more infractions for telling the lovely rogue mod that it's actually a quite pesky bug/glitch for MM hunters.
The TSA glyph is underated at this point, it's the MM hunter's shot with highest crit/damage boost from talents.
When there's done more math on it and the spreadsheets understand that Aimed don't bypass armor mitigation and won't crit for 9k but actually is the best chance of keeping Piercing Shots rolling.
Ohh well I bet i'll find another "We don't care" private message from a mod in my mailbox soon! Cya on the flipside!
I seem to remeber hearing that crit from the TSA glyph and Imp Barrage where bugged to not stack. Was this fixed recently and I missed catching it or was it a bit of incorrect information that I'm recalling?
The TSA glyph is underated at this point, it's the MM hunter's shot with highest crit/damage boost from talents.
When there's done more math on it and the spreadsheets understand that Aimed don't bypass armor mitigation and won't crit for 9k but actually is the best chance of keeping Piercing Shots rolling.
The calculations tab for the sheet shows Aimed shot to crit for 9k pre-armour just for reference. The shot rotation tab uses the post-armour value.
I don't quite get how to manage my mana pool efficiently. On short boss fights (i.e. Ignis) I can get along with my mana even though I am experiencing a way higher mana consumption than the sv hunter does. Yet as soon as fight becomes longer, say length of Iron Counsil, I get the feeling that at some point mm isn'z viable any more. Even with blessing of wisdow, jugdement of wisdom, shaman totem (the whole bunch) I can't get along with my mana.
I'm looking for some promising hints. On some encounters I try to keep my Viper up but that's possible on just a few of the Ulduar bosses. Without the mana issue mm would be ore than just competitve to sv. So, would be grateful for any advice.
I don't quite get how to manage my mana pool efficiently. On short boss fights (i.e. Ignis) I can get along with my mana even though I am experiencing a way higher mana consumption than the sv hunter does. Yet as soon as fight becomes longer, say length of Iron Counsil, I get the feeling that at some point mm isn'z viable any more. Even with blessing of wisdow, jugdement of wisdom, shaman totem (the whole bunch) I can't get along with my mana.
I'm looking for some promising hints. On some encounters I try to keep my Viper up but that's possible on just a few of the Ulduar bosses. Without the mana issue mm would be ore than just competitve to sv. So, would be grateful for any advice.
FYI, Blessing of wisdom and the shaman totem do not stack any more. If your raid comp allows it, allways take the blessing over the totem, because of range and uptime issues.
Tips on mana management and proper use of Viper (aspect and sting) have been posted on page 53 of this very same topic.
I don't quite get how to manage my mana pool efficiently. On short boss fights (i.e. Ignis) I can get along with my mana even though I am experiencing a way higher mana consumption than the sv hunter does. Yet as soon as fight becomes longer, say length of Iron Counsil, I get the feeling that at some point mm isn'z viable any more. Even with blessing of wisdow, jugdement of wisdom, shaman totem (the whole bunch) I can't get along with my mana.
I'm looking for some promising hints. On some encounters I try to keep my Viper up but that's possible on just a few of the Ulduar bosses. Without the mana issue mm would be ore than just competitve to sv. So, would be grateful for any advice.
Offhand:
Iron Council: while burning down other adds sneak a Viper sting on the Stormcaller when time allows. Runemaster is doable as well but his mana pool is much smaller.
Auraiya: Viper Sting her while using AOE on the adds or on the move.
Thorim arena: Viper Evokers as they run in so you can get a few ticks before the raid burns them down. Also volunteer for focus firing these adds as Volley will OOM you in short order.
Freya: Low on mana? Sting her and go back to what you were doing. Set her as a focus if you have to. She's like an extra mana bar just hanging around.
There are a few fights with pauses built in that are great for using Aspect of the Viper like Mimiron. Also add phases, where you can go into AotV on the first couple of hits while the OT builds aggro.
I do believe it's worth using a Viper Sting on a target and losing the Serpent Sting damage (even for MM) over switching to AotV.
On the Iron Council if you go by the normal order you have Brundir with a massive manapool so just make a mouseover Viper Sting macro and apply on cooldown onto him. That should make mana trivial on that fight. But I agree that Viper Sting isn't useful in many encounters. But if you are fast then you can use it on Auriaya just as she casts Terryfying Screech. While running about feared you will gain some mana.
[EDIT] Damn... sat too long watching stuff. Agreed on Freya. That fight's most manaintensive segments are before you actually fight her. So keeping Viper Sting on her is good.
Yea, I agree to all responses, nevertheless I figure that sv is still more viable than mm ist, due to mm's mana issues. Is this still true or has anyone maybe made other experiences?
I definately disagree. MM with the new 7 57 7 spec with proper allotted talent points hold mana longer than survival on long fights. The trick is managing your rapid fire. Instead of blowing through rapid fire twice right off the bat, save them for heroism or when mana is at 30%. Yes you will sacrifice a minute amount of dps but with rapid regain you will outlast any survival hunter manawise. That = more dps over the long haul. I have my own question. What are the best non ulduar trinket combos for MM spec. I cant find that info anywhere in this thread or on other sites. Has anyone found a definite best trinket combo for dps? currently i am using Grim Toll and DCG. Is Bandits Insignia better than either one, or Mirror? All your responses are greatly appreciated.....
Hoping for a little insight. I use the spreadsheet a lot. This maybe the wrong thread but IMO I am asking from a MM point of view.
Dreambinder was coming up as the BiS weapon for me until I enabled PVP, now Lotrafen is. I am indeed a fan of +87 crit , however when I add 2 delicate dragon's eye's to Dreambinder I get an increase of 16dps (between the weapons in favor of Dreambinder).
Couple of questions for my reason to post:
1. What did enabling the pvp section do to make this change? That change changing stuff kinda blew me away.
2. I believe I would like to stick with Lotrafen for a couple of reasons, 1. Delicate Dragon's eyes can go elsewhere for more dps, I think, 2. We run with ferals who I believe will get better DPS out of Dreambinder than me placing the best gems in it, if I didn't mess up my sheet somehow.
Am I kinda on the right track or totally off? Not sure what the dps increase would be either when the gems don't match the bonus. So -8 agi. I tried putting in correct color gems and it was a pretty big dps loss.
Pretty sure they were really close before I made this change in dps, also, leading me to just stick with Lotrafen.
Little confused and would appreciate some advice, sorry if I am wrong.
I definately disagree. MM with the new 7 57 7 spec with proper allotted talent points hold mana longer than survival on long fights. The trick is managing your rapid fire. Instead of blowing through rapid fire twice right off the bat, save them for heroism or when mana is at 30%. Yes you will sacrifice a minute amount of dps but with rapid regain you will outlast any survival hunter manawise. That = more dps over the long haul. I have my own question. What are the best non ulduar trinket combos for MM spec. I cant find that info anywhere in this thread or on other sites. Has anyone found a definite best trinket combo for dps? currently i am using Grim Toll and DCG. Is Bandits Insignia better than either one, or Mirror? All your responses are greatly appreciated.....
Blowing double rapid fire on bloodlust is a horrible idea. Sure, you're firing autoshots like a machine gun, but that's it. More haste doesn't do anything when you're already well GCD locked under bloodlust. Maximum dps demands maximum use of dps tools. If you're not using rapid fire at every reasonable opportunity then you're gimping your dps. Getting off two sets of double (or perhaps triple, depending on the fight) rapid fire(s) plus bloodlust is going to up your dps a lot more than saving your double rapid to be used during bloodlust.
Also, the less rapid fires you use, the less mana you get back overall.
In regards to which trinket to use, I recommend checking the spreadsheet.
<Blackpatch>: i feel so bad for north koreans
<Blackpatch>: imagine
<Blackpatch>: there are kids living 30 miles north of seoul
<Blackpatch>: who have never heard of banelings
<Bryne>: monkeys only throw shit everywhere because they're smart enough to realize: EVERYONE HATES SHIT
That said, you think it's better to add each Piercing Shot proc to the shot it belongs to, rather than doing it separate as now?
I would find this to be useful. Since it works similarly to Ignite/Deep Wounds now, I think it makes more sense to think of it as a crit modification to that ability. Have the calculation in the tab just as a reference for the curious.
Blowing double rapid fire on bloodlust is a horrible idea. Sure, you're firing autoshots like a machine gun, but that's it. More haste doesn't do anything when you're already well GCD locked under bloodlust.
I disagree. As far as I can tell, the benefit from increased auto shots by stacking haste effects seems to outweigh spreading out haste buffs for more soft-capped times.
Let me try to explain how I'm testing this in the spreadsheet - corrects are of course welcome. Turn Heroism/Lust off in Settings and take Rapid Fire out of the shot rotation. Spreadsheet has me at 6654.84 at this point.
Haste rating and haste percentage effects (like heroism and rapid fire) don't work quite the same, but we can simulate them regardless. I have 303 haste so I'll be using that in this example. Auto shot speed with rapid fire would be 2.8/1.4/1.15/((1+303/3279)=1.592. This would be equivalent to a hand adjusted haste rating increase of 2.8/1.15/(1+(303+x)/3279)=1.592, x=1433. Slightly more than 40*32.79=1311.6 if haste were additive. Hand adjusting for this haste gives DPS of 7353.03.
Heroism/Bloodlust would be 2.8/1.3/1.15/(1+303/3279)=1.714, or a haste rating equivalent of 1075. DPS here is 7180.97. Heroism+Rapid Fire would be 2.8/1.4/1.3/1.15/(1+303/3279)=1.225 or a haste rating equivalent of 2937. DPS here is 8090.63.
Your mileage may vary with different static haste ratings, etc. I would at least argue that they are close enough that one method doesn't easily trump the other, unless someone can show a better way of modeling this.
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
Also, the less rapid fires you use, the less mana you get back overall.
Would it be a wise idea to save double rapid fires for about a minute into the fight, if this were the case? It seems you are wasting the mana regain if you pop them as soon as the boss is engaged. Even with MM's mana problems, it seems my mana doesn't start becoming an issue until about halfway through an average fight (with BoW and JoW up).
Would it be a wise idea to save double rapid fires for about a minute into the fight, if this were the case? It seems you are wasting the mana regain if you pop them as soon as the boss is engaged. Even with MM's mana problems, it seems my mana doesn't start becoming an issue until about halfway through an average fight (with BoW and JoW up).
The answer depends on your regen situation and your raid (e.g., how long the encounter will last).
Here is the timeline if you used RF->Readiness->RF at the start of the fight and as soon as they are off CD with assuming waiting minimum 5s for the tank to have the boss sufficiently.
0:00 Start of fight
0:05 Rapid Fire
0:20 Readiness*->RF
3:20 Rapid Fire
3:35 Readiness*->RF
6:35 Rapid Fire
6:50 Readiness*->RF
....
* Readiness could be done earlier if you want - I prefer to use it right after my instants are cast so that I can recast them.
Obviously, if the fight is less than 3:15 long, then it really does not matter where you use RF->Readiness-RF. If you have no mana issues during that short fight, some may save it to right before the 20% mark so that you can do back-to-back Kill Shots too.
If the fight is between 3:30 and 6:30, it depends on a lot of factors, but you do not want to wait so long that you can't use the second set of CDs. The same goes for longer duration fights.
For my situation, I usually find myself down below 70% mana about 20-30 seconds in, so I tend it use it then since with that timing it does not seem to fill up my bar while I am still casting (i.e., no wasted regen) and I am not waiting so long such that I do not have much risk of not having them off CD again before the end of the fight when they could have been. I do not worry about when Bloodlust is occuring since that is out of my control and often fight/strategy dependent and may be either early (e.g., Iron Council to down the big guy faster once we are in the first power aura, first time Razorscale is on the ground) or late (e.g., phase 4 Mimiron, Freya after add cycles done) in the encounter.
Would it be a wise idea to save double rapid fires for about a minute into the fight, if this were the case? It seems you are wasting the mana regain if you pop them as soon as the boss is engaged. Even with MM's mana problems, it seems my mana doesn't start becoming an issue until about halfway through an average fight (with BoW and JoW up).
The manareturns from Rapid Fire (with RR) doesn't cover the expenses if you are standing still. But who would be popping RF while running anyway? So in effect the sooner the better since it might mean even just a few seconds more with RF at the very end.
Personally I would pop it after the first Chimera provided my position on threat isn't compromising. Not all fights lends the tank to go max threat initially.
Alright, I can buy your math on that point. Correct me if my understanding of the numbers is off though. Your calculations are for only one set of rapid fire/readiness/rapid fire. If there were two double rapid fires + bloodlust in the course of the fight, then the total damage should be higher than if rapid/readiness/rapid were saved *only* to be used during bloodlust.*
If I understand correctly, then if the fight length will only permit 1 set of rapid fires it's best to save it for bloodlust. However, if the fight length will permit two sets of rapid fire plus bloodlust you should not save it for bloodlust if it will cost you a second set of rapid fires (two rapid fire set plus bloodlust will out dps one rapid fire set stacked with bloodlust). However, if you can stack double rapid fire(s) on with bloodlust without reducing your maximum number of rapid fires, you should still try to stack it.
I think I made that sound much more confusing then it is.
*I meant that if saving rapid fire to stack with BL would only give you one rapid fire sequence during the fight when you could potentially do two had you not saved it to stack with BL.
<Blackpatch>: i feel so bad for north koreans
<Blackpatch>: imagine
<Blackpatch>: there are kids living 30 miles north of seoul
<Blackpatch>: who have never heard of banelings
<Bryne>: monkeys only throw shit everywhere because they're smart enough to realize: EVERYONE HATES SHIT
Thorim arena: Viper Evokers as they run in so you can get a few ticks before the raid burns them down. Also volunteer for focus firing these adds as Volley will OOM you in short order.
If you are in Thorim arena it is better to just Viper Thorim himself. In phase 1 he just stands around and lets you use him as free mana
Hunter (3.1 Skills List / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc.)
* Hunter's Mark: The ranged attack power bonus from this ability has been increased from 300 to 500.
* Master Marksman: This talent now also decreases the cost of Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot by 5/10/15/20/25%.
05/25/09, 3:48 AM
, however when I add 2 delicate dragon's eye's to Dreambinder I get an increase of 16dps (between the weapons in favor of Dreambinder). 
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