Shadowzuka

That means now Improved Hunter's Mark brings 150 AP to the table if talented in it, worth the 3 points? (I'm not too talented with the spreadsheet )

As for Chimera and Aimed. It should bring their costs down to 454 mana for CS and 302 for Aimed if I'm doing my math right (if it isn't forgive me, just woke up to the changes).

Of course, this is still subject to change, but both very nice changes to Marks hunters, and a very good change to hunter's all around.

 

Whitemane

Too late! Delete please!

 

DonTe

On bosses where you can mana drain, Viper Sting is almost OP.
Viper Sting drains 4% of mana from the enemy over 8 seconds, but oftentimes, it will drain 8% of your mana pool instead (since bosses like Freya have 234k mana). Since Viper gives you 3x of the mana you drain back to you as mana gain, you will gain about 24% mana back from each Viper Sting. If you refresh this Sting with Chimera Shot when it has 1 second left, it will be 15 seconds of Viper uptime. This is approximately 45% of your mana returned over a 15 second interval. Also, count in the 60% of total mana drained from Chimera Viper, and that calculates to about (60% of 24% of your mana pool)14.4% from Chimera Viper. ~45% + ~15% = 60% of your entire mana pool back, just from 15 seconds of Viper Sting.

On bosses where you cant Viper Sting, you have to rely on Rapid Recuperation and well-timed Rapid Fires and Aspect of the Vipers.
With two points into RR, Rapid Fire gives you 20% of your mana pool back over the 15 second duration. So I would say use RF whenever you hit 85% of your mana pool. Keep that in mind and don't just blow RF as soon as the first one wears off.
Also, a neat thing to do is to Rapid Fire + Bloodlust/Heroism + Aspect of the Viper during your third Rapid Fire. You get mana back for each individual hit you deal, and with the increased attack speed, your mana will skyrocket. This tactic nets an amazing mana return during your third/fourth Rapid Fire. However, during the interval in between those phases, you might run out of mana. You should switch to Aspect of the Viper ONLY when you are affected by a haste effect. This gives you the best efficiency.

Other tips to note: You should not put any points into Efficiency, because it is simply not worth it.

You should NOT have Silencing Shot in your rotation. The dmg per mana ratio is terrible. It should only be used during burn phases.

 

Catalept

According to my napkin maths, post-3.1.3 IHM just edges out Imp.Barrage, and that's just for personal DPS. IMO, once 3.1.3 goes live (and I can't believe I'm saying this) Improved Hunter's Mark looks like a no-brainer for raiding MM hunters.

 

Geebos

Is it also going to be beneficial to have the Hunters Mark glyph in there somewhere?

From my dodgy maths and if this is how the glyph is applied

500 * 1.3 = 650ap

650 *1.2 = 780ap

 

Shadowzuka

It is additive if I remember correctly, not multiplicative.

So it would end up being:

650 AP if 3/3 IHM. 750 AP if 3/3 IHM + glyph.

 

Nyutu

Nice at least some place to put the points of ISS.

Also the mana reduction in aimed and chimera will help a lot int the MM mana issues perhaps making posible to use the aimed shot glyph?

 

dangerbird

I plugged these changes into my current 7/57/7 build, shifting points from ISS and IB to IHM, then using hand adjust to make up the difference to hunters mark ap(+200 base, + 60 Improved). That was around 100 dps gain. Then taking into account the mana saved with chimera and aimed (~250 every 10 seconds) I hand adjusted myself for 125 mp5. That gave another bump ~100 dps.

Overall with these changes I went from speccing out at 7150 up to 7354, and also not taking into account mana from improved HM now being free (minimal obviously).

Hunters mark glyph was still a downgrade for me over Chimera (I spec at .1 latency) and steady shot.

This, along with Ranged weapon bump makes for a good week for MM.

edit:typo

edit2: to clarify, the bulk of the hm dps gain is from the 200ap that you get regardless of whether you spec IHM or not. IHM itself was showing as about a 6-10 dps improvement per point over ISS or IB. All 3 seem to linger around that 16-25 dps per point, with IHM apparently now a little ahead of the others. Plus then we can share our hm with our leaching SV brothers

 

Nyutu

Nice to know just one question

Chimera at spec .1 is giving you a dps increase over steady? (I supose the other two being SrS and KS).

 

dangerbird

Chimera is my second best glyph when i set latency to .1 rather than .2. I have read plenty of theory on whether to use chimera or not, but in game I have definitely found it to be a dps increase, and since i do tend to have around 100ms latency, it makes sense to set it there anyway. (actually i just went and tested it on the spreadsheet, and latency doesn't seem to be making a difference anymore - it specs out as 2nd best glyph (after srs) at either latency. the way that is calced must have been altered, but i digress.

My third glyph is steady shot, which is currently showing 20dps more than killshot, and again, in real raiding, i didn't find i was getting a lot of extra kills shots over the course of a night. And as to my original point, it still doesn't appear glyph of HM will out perform any of them (in personal dps)

 

Nyutu

Kill shot is interesting for some fights but You are correct that in most bosses it doesn't perform very well. But for example in Yogg is a winner for sure, 2.5 mil HP in uld10 is quite a lot to chunk with KS.

At least even with MH glyph not being a BiS one, the talent is for sure a good choice.

But what about Aimed Shot glyph? Now it shouldn't be a problem to shoot more Aimed with the 25% mana reduction.

EDIT: Forget about the chimera shot thing I redownloaded the spreadsheet and now my glyphs are as you describe. SrS, CS, SS.

 

◊ Lactose

After testing Marksmanship for a while, and how Abomination's Might/Unleashed Rage work with Trueshot Aura, I've noticed the following:

With Trueshot Aura active and either of the above proccing, Trueshot Aura buff disappears. When the proc fades, Trueshot Aura buff reappears.
So, Trueshot Aura is active in some sense, but it's not a visible buff anywhere.

What does this mean to Glyph of Trueshot Aura - does the glyph still increase critical chance while Trueshot Aura is in the hidden state?

If one were to test on a training dummy with a willing/bored assistant, how large a sample size would be needed to get statistically relevant data? And would it be a good idea to strip off gear and reduce base crit as much as possible, or would this serve no purpose?

Hopefully someone more statisically inclined can shed some light on the most efficient way to get significant results.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Eikichi

Does somebody have up to date score weighting numbers to use Loot Rank for a 7/57/7 MM hunter ? I know I should use a spreadsheet but being on mac Shandaras does not work with opengl.
I have already asked in the hunter's simple question/answer part with no luck, if there is a better option then begging for someone without the spreadsheet to get this numbers plz tell.

 

Fingolken

I guess it would be sufficient if just one hunter skilled IHM, right?

 

valiloramov

You can go to Wowhead and add a "weighing" for MM Hunters. It's pretty good and you can even customise it by using the stat weighting from the spreadsheet and enter it into wowhead. Bonza!

 

Nyutu

Why dont you use bootcamp with windows xp as we all mac users do? The spreadsheet works perfect under bootcamp in mac.

 

Eikichi

What I need is the stat , wowhead stat weighting is just a alternative for lootrank (that I prefer) and is no use without good numbers for my specific case (MM, Dwarf, [glyph : cs,srs,cc], etc...) or a least numbers for a base mm spec.

wowhead has default mm numbers but they are completely wrong ...

edit : I haven't needed to, wow runs well and to now I have all ways fond the numbers I'm looking for.The things the spreadsheet would help with other then item choosing (shot rotation, pet selection, etc...) I deal with by reading forums and in game test.

 

KraxisSingular

HM glyph doesn't have to beat the third glyph in personal DPS most of the time. Most of us don't raid 'alone'. So technically you should multiply it's total effect by the number of hunters you generally see. What is most interesting is if it is better in a 2 hunter raid. If it is, then I would say that it is the glyph to go for. But obviously having a stack each of Hunter's Mark, Kill Shot and Steady Shot might be the best solution. The mats involved should be pretty cheap overall, generally much less than a raidnight's worth of flasks or even 'white' ammo.

I'm convinced now to spec my dual spec as MM with IHM and the glyph as I see upwards of 4 hunters in my raids, and very often 3.

 

Nachti

Could you handadjust another 100 AP (for another Hunter in the Raid) and post your numbers?

 

Beachwanderer

I'd like to pose a question to the MM community (I play SV). With the upcoming changes, how many hunters in the raid would make (1) talents and (2) glyphed Hunters Mark to make them viable for raid DPS. For instance, according to the spreadsheet I'm sitting at 8810 effective RAP, 57.5% Total Crit, against an effective armor of 6036, for a DPS value of 5727. With my Pet included (1167 dps) my total dps is 6894. So the question is, is it worth it for a second hunter (MM) to take those talents and glyph at the risk of a loss to their own dps? What about a 3rd hunter? I remember once you would need 5-6 hunters to make up for the dps loss. I am not current with a MM build to make the right choices in talent cuts, so I am looking to the MM community for a logical, calculated decision, and a full talent tree with glyphs.

 

Whitemane

Using my own gear-setup, SS/CS/SrS glyphs and using a base spec of Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft my dps is as follows:

Base spec: 7403,88
IHM instead of Imp Barrage: 7416,56

Improved Hunter's Mark is better than Improved Barrage for personal dps, so that's easy enough. Not everyone has Imp Barrage, but it's what I use and I don't want to sit and do all the variations. Doing it because it's what I have and as such, useful for me too!

Steady Shot is the weakest glyph at 97 DPS, SrS and CS glyphs are valued at 208 DPS and 160 DPS respectively. The Hunter's Mark glyph is worth 64 DPS. So it's a personal dps benefit to get IHM, which makes it an easy decision since it is slightly better than Imp Barrage for personal dps but with more hunters in the raid it is far ahead of Imp Barrage. I'd expect it to be quite a fair deal ahead of other secondary talents as well, since none of them are really that powerful. It may not be a personal benefit in all cases, but if you have 2 hunters in your raid it is a definite win.

The HM glyph however is not a personal benefit and should not be used unless you are regularly 2 hunters in the raid, since it's only worth approximately 66% of the Steady Shot glyph.

 

valiloramov

Did anyone check to see how marked for death worked? If I place a Hunters Mark on a boss, will all the hunters get the marked for death bonus (assuming they specced it) or is it only the hunter who placed the mark?

I guess the easy way to check is to do some test dummy testing, shoot 100 arrows with no mark, 100 with your mark and 100 with someone elses mark in your party and check the difference.

 

Whitemane

The search function is a wonderful thing:

Marksman questions

Especially on something as marked for death, since the search on this board is restricted to 4 letters and "marked" & "death" are not that common in posts.

Add: That's true Ufthak, sorry to valiloramov. I read the question posed that Starfox seemed to answer, which seems to be to be the exact same as valiloramov posed. Just seems that Starfox did not answer the expected part?

Tested:

I just went and got another hunter to help me, and steady shot damage was the same across 2 Hunter Marks - 1 from me and one from a grouped BM hunter. So Marked for Death should apply as long as there's a HM on the target, regardless of who put it there.

 

Ufthak

To be fair to valiloramov, my reading of that post was to see if the crit damage part was passive and not whther the Mark had to be from the Hunter specced for Marked for Death.

 

Aerilas

What's better for marks, Stack AP or AGI?

I can't seem to find the answer.