You have to think about the post-3.1.3 aimed shot. The reduced mana cost would make it much more viable in a rotation, even in sub-optimal mana situations. This would mean that significantly reducing its cooldown would give even more of a benefit. This is opposed to steady shot which is the lowest priority shot, and with a reduced Aimed, and possible Silencing shot, might get near to pushed off the rotation table. I still need to work with the spreadsheet a bit but from an analytical standpoint it seems to make sense that glyphing aimed shot would outweigh glyphing steady shot.

Then I think you need to work some with the spreadsheet before coming with such a statement, the change is incorporated into the spreadsheet already. Also I don't think "analytical" and "seems to make sense" belongs in the same sentence?

I was making such a statement because I had not looked at the spreadsheet. After toying around with a myriad of possibilities, I found that glyphing steady came out to at least an 8.7dps increase every time, ranging to about 30dps. I'm also aware that these figures might be a little high due to movement issues, as most boss fights require. Is there any data suggesting this?

I don't see the problem here. Analyses seem to make sense or they don't seem to make sense to someone.

A good while back someone made an in-depth analysis of the amount of movement generally occuring in a fight, but with such a difficult subject it relies on some assumptions - I can't recall the specifics. Movement is going to detract from the dps gain by the steady shot glyph for sure, how much varies per fight and also on the user. On some fights you don't need to move enough that you can not line up your movements with the use of instants, I generally try to push my movements a bit if I can make it occur at the same time as using two instants. This gives me 3 seconds of movement where the only casualty of it is the auto shot being pushed and nothing else.

There is plenty data on the subject, but I've not seen anyone willing to analyze it. Also it's not incredibly easy to do, since you need to analyze each fight on its own and you will end up with several part conclusions and no overall conclusion. I think the best the hunter community is going to accomplish is to plug it into the spreadsheet and imagine the rest. It seems reasonable that the aimed shot glyph, in a mobile fight, could beat the Steady Shot glyph.

Analysis is objective and "make sense" is subjective, that's what my protest was about

That is a great tip. I forgot to test it last night though.

Now if I sting Thorim during the arena phase and something crazy happens I'm coming back here for you.

Many times, before Chimera AHot is up and I am in AOTV, I would quickly switch to AOTH and then back, to maintain CHimera SHot's effects.

Is there such a thing as a haste cap for MM hunters? IF so , what is it? and how much AP (and other stats) should be sacrificed for haste?

Sadly when we tried testing FA/LS and its effects on crit it came out with vague results, and even when we had very large samples people were still skeptic. (Focused Aim reducing Crit Return)

I say the most efficient way to find out the answer is bring it up on the DD forums. GC has been very willing as of late to describe some of the finer detail that gets lost in tool tips and combat logs.

There are to many variables to test because it might be to hard to distinguish when Abomination's Might/Unleashed Rage procs fall off and when TSA picks back up. At that point you may have to purge those values from the data set, which that in itself would cause some validity issues. (Unless you can find a way to guarantee Abomination's Might/Unleashed Rage to be up 100% maybe 2+ Shammies/DKs?)

Normally though 2000 is a good baseline for any data set to converge (what most of my projects rely on), but the more the better. Although many people say as small as 200 is good enough (do to this is how much it takes for the T-stat to converge close enough to Normal dist)

Before anyone goes testing it might be better to actually apply the glyph first and see if Abomination's Might/Unleashed Rage still sets TSA to a hidden/secondary state.

I just did some tests using the rotation, pretty inconclusive. Either one can come out on top depending on crits/procs. I'd say they are both very close.

What's also interesting is putting Aimed ahead of Arcane increases dps unless you have the Aimed glyph and then putting Arcane ahead of Aimed works better.

I think there are some issues in the rotation section of the spreadsheet. Currently it shows a large DPS gain when I put Readiness at the very bottom, a position that ensure it never gets used (and the test shows this). So I would take moving shots around with a grain of salt for now.

Yeah, I plugged the same setup into SimCraft and steady shot glyph definitely comes out on top.

Mark glyph is about 100dps below steady glyph. Definitely not worth it unless you have multiple hunters. Seems like 2 you just about break even and 3 you come out ahead.

Do you guys go by the spreadsheet on when to switch from raiding as survival to marks or are there other factors involved? Because if its gear I still come across some geared hunters and there running survival a lot of times when I assume marks is the better spec at the higher gear levels.

Also going on that should I pretty much follow what the spreadsheet says when looking at upgrades and rearranging my gear for max dps depending on the spec?

Like I was able to maneuver some talents around and get back my rune edge instead of having to use twisted visage to make up for the hit lost when I switched from circlet of true sight to t8 25man helm. And it ended up being a 50 dps upgrade in the end. Should I keep doing that when looking for upgrades and the best possible spec to be?

There are definately several options to go in terms of upgrade pathing. Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference which would be based on loot availability (competition & rng included). Many hunters tend to keep a note of the BIS pieces as something to shoot for (there's another thread for this) and will pick those up while also picking up any upgrades that come by, especially if the BIS pieces are still unaccessible to your guild (many from hard modes).

But yes, to determine if something is an upgrade or not, you'ld ultimately fall back on the spreadsheet. Since we don't know what's going on in your guild (how your progress is, how loot's sorted) we can't concretely say how you personally should look for upgrades. My personal advice is to grab the BIS pieces, while also determining for yourself which of the BIS pieces are still "far away" for you and getting the best upgrade for those slots.

Does anyone know if the talent Improved hunters mark stacks with the Hunters mark Glyph

Yes, they are additive. So for the current 300 AP, its 90 AP from IHM and 60 from the glyph for 450 AP total. With the 3.1.3 500 AP from HM, its 150 AP from IHM and 100 from the glyph for 750 AP total.

I am seeing the highest DPS (in the spreadsheet) with my current gear and the 7/57/7 MM talent build with the following glyphs:
Kill Shot
Serpent Sting
Steady Shot

In this thread (and elsewhere) many people have said that the Steady Shot glyph is a waste and that the obvious replacement for it is the Chimera Shot glyph. But then why is the spreadsheet saying otherwise? And not just by a little...the DPS reported by the spreadsheet goes down by about 83 when I substitute the Chimera glyph for the SS glyph.

The spreadsheet is definitely taking into account the fact that it is the lowest priority shot in the rotation, but even with it at the lowest priority it is still being fired 1592 times in the rotation test (vs. 596 Chimera, 595 Aimed, and 593 Arcanes). I know the disadvantage of it is that you can't use it while running, but given that it is happening so many times in an ideal rotation, it seems like the SS glyph might not be so bad after all.

It depends on your latency. If you left it at the default (200 ms) chimera shot glyph is calculated as being nearly worthless. Drop it to 100 and see if that changes your results.

Here's a novel approach: get a Chimera Shot glyph and use it for a night and every time you see it on cooldown for more than 1 second because of non-player error, make a mental note.

I'm serious.

It's much better than anything else but KS glyph on some encounters (ok, maybe just Yogg). IAotH will keep you at 1.5 Steadies for literally half of every fight and theres a reason they implemented lag skill-queueing of sorts in 2.x to counteract latency and /stopcasting macros.

It is very helpful to add in your guild's usual buffing profile to the spreadsheet. WWS is a good way to go about this. For example: For me anytime my guild doesn't have a blood dk or enhance shaman or MM hunter (for the 10% ap buff) MM comes out on top. .. Leader of the Pack, Replenishment up time, JoW, ..ect all importannt to factor in. Just a friendly reminder

For someone who runs with 200-250ms latency, is the glyph really worthless? or is it just the Spreadsheet not calculating it right? I would test it in a raid if i could but our setup changes from night to night so i wouldn't have any relevant numbers to compare.

Right now without the glyph, my rotation is the usual Chim > Aimed > AS >3xSS and i sometime end up waiting a few miliseconds to get Chim up again.

on a side note, if i were to pick up the glyph, my rotation would change to a more priority system then a fixed rotation right? Since Aimed will still be on a 10sec cooldown?

Yes, The Glyph will make a smooth rotation into a priority system. And I think the issue is the spreadsheet. You may be waiting half a second for Chimera sometimes, but that's more DPS than pushing it back by a second for a Steady.

The spreadsheet was DESIGNED to simulate your latency, it's not a glitch. If you actually have bad enough lag to be sitting at the default "start cast" times in your rotation, then those values are pretty accurate.

Because you can overlap shots slightly to counter lag/stopcasting and because ping reports in game are pretty much crap, I recommend testing on a dummy.

Go into viper (unlimited mana, and not really interested in IAotH uptime) and complete several rotations.

For me, using chimera, aimed, Serpent sting glyphs and a chimXaimXXX rotation, It takes me 19.5s to do what should take me 18s to do at haste cap with no lag. Some of that delay is my being under haste cap,

I can now model accurately using my gear what my latency should be based on the time between the start of one full rotation (chimXaimXXX twice through) and the next full rotation. In my case I played with the latency numbers until the next full rotation was 19.5s after the previous one.

Again, if your latency is bad enough or your haste is low enough, the pushback on your chimera shot glyph will put it close to the 10s cooldown it would normally have. It's not a bug in the sheet, it's actually a good test of the sheet.