Yes, I'm gemmed the same for both specs. I haven't really switched from one to the other yet, although I've been MM for most fights this week, and I think the spreadsheet is still giving me the same gemming being optimal for both, with the possible exception of some edge cases like where to put the prismatic to get a socket bonus (which is suboptimal for both I'm sure)

The spreadsheet is taking the mana cost into consideration though, unless you have Hawk set to always on. If SiS is forcing you to go to viper, the damage loss from that is considered - what isn't considered is that on some fights you're spending mana on things like Volley and Misdirect, but the sheet isn't modelling your DPS from volley and GCDs spent on misdirect anyway, so it's not all that useful for those fights.

Most of the recent BiS models show marks ahead of surv, so next tier may not be accurate. The question is what do u mean "better"? In terms of dps marks does scale ahead of marks, but one could argue that the utility/mana/survival gained from survival puts marks in a position where it has to out dps survival by a considerable amount to be considered better.

Personally I still prefer SV, but my second spec is MM already and I have to admit it's very usable and even fun, but to get to the point: SV has some utility/mana/survival advantage as you mentioned, but the talent build that is closest to MM (6/14/51) does sacrifice alot of this and has some disadvantages in movement heavy encounters in contrast to the 7/57/7 MM build.

Oh, I didn't realise the spreadsheet did that - that's pretty cool. Thanks for clarification.

I am pretty sure pet GCD with abilities on auto cast is 1.25 sec. So using your equation above (4*60/1.25) there were really 192 GCDs available.. this is assuming your pet had 4 minutes of actual dps time on the boss.

Remember that Enisidia is doing hard mode content. These fights require more movement in most cases and perfect positioning. The issue isn't if tuskar's vitality is a dps increase. The reason for the chant is for survivability and being in the right positions.

Survival has no utility other than Replenishment, which is provided by 3 other classes. If that's worth 50+ DPS to you, then fine, but there already is proof that MM is better at high enough gear levels. That proof is in spreadsheet math. Is it a huge difference, and will it show in raid DPS? Probably not. But it's there, and it's ignorant to just discard it because you like one spec better than another. Stay Survival if you like the spec. Nobody here is going to force you to spec anything else and it isn't their job to convince you to.

Long time reader, new poster here. Amidst all the discussion on Marksmanship I'm seeing Glyph of Serpent Sting being cited as a staple glyph for MM these days. I'm one of the exodus of hunters who now is discovering my gear is shifting toward MM being the proper spec for max DPS purposes.

My question is, since each CS is refreshing SpS every time it's used, and its cooldown is much shorter than the duration of a non-glyphed SpS, why is the extra 6 sec duration of Glyphed SpS more useful than say a Chimera Shot, Trueshot Aura, and Kill Shot/Steady Shot glyph combo?

So far, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that extra 6 second duration is required, especially on a single target Ulduar raid boss. Am I missing something here guys?

The extra six seconds gives your serpent sting 2 more ticks, so your chim shot does more dmg.

What exactly is this mysterious "Utility" that SV is supposed to be providing over Marks these days anyhow? TSA vs Replenishment is a wash, since other classes provide the same buffs. Then, there's Wyvern's Sting in SV, but I'd take IHM in marks over that since I've never been asked to CC anything in 10 or 25 - A couple of mages / locks usually have all of it covered. Then there's traps CD's I suppose... and SV never has those up because of BA, so I guess that would give MM the edge on trap utility.

Better volleys. Ranged Interrupt. Readiness. More instant cast dps. Better kiting.

There's less health I suppose, but it's not huge. Basically the difference between getting 1-shot and 1.1-shot. As far as DPS goes, the two specs are pretty close. Some fights favor one or the other, which is why it's nice to have both.

@Beach: I don't think it has anything to do with being bored so much as realizing that one is better than the other some of the time.

Edit: Technically, I guess Wyvern Sting lines up better with Silencing Shot, if we're comparing utility vs utility (since it's higher up the tree =) Silencing Shot clearly being more useful in general. IHM fits better into an MM build, but it's not out of reach of SV, so I guess it doesn't really count.

I switched to MM from Surv. even though I was at or near the top of three hunters in my guild DPS-wise. The theoretical DPS was close between the two specs for my gear, and I had grown SUPER frustrated with the RNG/proc dps fluctuations of Surv. In addition, Sniper Training encourages all sorts of suboptimal positioning because you lose such a huge DPS boost from moving.

When all is said and done, I am in about the same spot DPS wise (definitely better on some fights), plus I bring TSA for 10 mans where we don't always have that buff and IHM for my other hunters. Also, Marks just matches my play style a bit better, and I am simply happier with its mechanics than I was with Surv.

I am adding this to the thread because as much as I appreciate all of the theoretical differences between the two specs in terms of DPS or utility etc. I wanted to share my experience with the very real differences.

To show that I am not simply a terribad with no idea what I am speaking of, here is a recent parse: Wow Web Stats

By no means best DPS in the world or anything like that. Just wanted to give this some real context. If anyone has suggestions on ways for me to improve my performance, I would love to hear 'em.

I saw a lot of discussion going on in the last days about droping RR for IHM so I started playing around with specs in the Spreadsheet. After some testing I saw that the Spreadsheet actually showed me higher dps with IHM and RR but without SI instead. My gear isn't great (Ulduar 10 man, few lower item lvls) so that might change with better gear. So right now I'm running with 7/59/5, only 1 point in RR though because I need 2/2 GftT due to my low crit. Anyone else seeing simmilar effects with RR and SI?

Again, a lot of fights even hard modes do require more movement, yes. But you don't need tuskar's vitality to avoid it. It's like saying "I can already dodge clouds fine, but I think I am going to use Tuskar's Vitality to increase my movement speed so I can dodge clouds even better rather than benefiting myself by using an enchant that will increase my dps and still be able to dodge clouds fine."

Just some things, which are easily found in the pages around this forum, summoned for you:

1) SV is, as you say. a very nice dps class. It can perform very well with all its buffs. However, when you take away that 6% damage increase to some shots via movement (which you will almost always have to do during ulduar raids) you lose what seems to matter most (dps). So i take marksman for the flexibility. Personally i dont like standing still, i like to be able to slightly adjust my position from time to time. An example of one movement intensive fight (with the posibility for RNG) is Thorim (especially hard mode), you spend half your time moving into different areas than standing still.
2) Marksman benifits more from dps gains through outside causes, for example the sparks in malygos and the thaddius (due to more damage coming from the actual hunter, and not the pet).
3) An extra interupt in the raid.
4) Another 10% attack power buff (often useful when you have the dks split from you in Thorim, for example).
5) An improved hunters mark, which increases ALL the hunters dps (assuming you spec into it)
6) More flexibility in the tree, without losing too much dps; you can have multiple versions of the standard 7/57/7 that still result in very similar resusts.
7) Improved stings - often helps having a mouseover macro for viper sting on fights like freya.
8) Rediness; a key talent that can get you out of almost anything - also great for providing extra burst.
9) 2/2 Rapid killing; i find this a great talent for steamrolling through old raids - i rarely find it takes more than 3 minutes between boss fights, so its always nice to have rapid fire back up and ready.
10) (Just because 9 seemed like such a stupid number to stop at) RR is just awesome for gaining mana back during burst :p

I think the point you are missing is that you *do* move better with run speed. Being able to move more quickly minimizes dps loss while moving because you get to resume attacking more quickly (primarily auto shot, but also applicable to steady).

Tuaskar's may increase survivability slightly as well, but it's real advantage is enabling higher time spent doing full damage instead of running and using instants.

QFT.
I've been raiding without an enhancement shaman for months and with no TSA, Abominable Might has been my only source of 10% AP, even in 25s. To be able to consistently bring such a powerful buff combined with moving away from the RNG of survival has resulted in consistency, first and foremost. The utility of double misdirects has been handy on a few shaky pulls as well.

On fights like Ignis, Thorim, and XT, the output of marks has been much higher for me since switching. On a stand-and-deliver fight, managing BA and SrS along with the reactive nature of LnL feels like more work than its worth when marks can proactively manage things like dual rapid fires and also greatly benefit from heroism/bloodlust. One of the frustrating things about raiding as survival is looking at the WoL reports and see every other class's dps spike during heroism while we barely blipped upwards.

I still respec to survival for Freya, Mimiron, and Hodir because of either the lack of JoW on the target (P3 Mimiron especially) or to best utilize the Singed debuff, but it's nice to finally be able to come back to marksman without having to give anything up output-wise.

You really should not have much of a mana problem on Freya where you need to switch to SV. You can cast Viper Sting Freya periodically to drain mana from her to keep your mana levels high while you are attacking other targets. This takes advantage of the fact that although you can only have 1 sting per target, you can have stings up simo on multiple targets.

You can viper sting freya for mana, AotV during the mirmiron down time.

I actually keep Viper Sting macros for various Ulduar fights. If I'm in Arena on Thorim, I keep this macro up

/cast [target=Thorim] Viper Sting

This allows me to continue fighting the rest of the room while casting off a viper sting on Thorim to keep my mana up. I do the same thing during the Freya add phases, just replace Thorim with Freya in the macro. If your positioning keeps him in range, you can also do the same thing to either Stormcaller or Runemaster on Iron Council. On Razorscale you can even make a macro to target one of the adds with mana (as long as you know the name of the mob). Tricks like this can really help with mana, especially if your raid is short on replenishment.

I noticed that most MM hunters use glyph of kill shot over steady shot because it has slightly more dps output. Does this hold true for a longer fight in which kill shot is not used for a long period of time. I would consider long around 9-10 minutes.

Longer fight usually means the boss has more health. More health means it will take longer to burn the boss from 20%-0. In a case like this the ratio of time you can use kill shot is the same as a shorter fight (so yes Kill shot would still be just as good). This especially hold true on a fight like Yogg P3 when, because you have to turn around so much, you won't get very many Steady Shots off.

/cast [target=mouseover, exists, harm] Viper Sting; Viper Sting
That is better.