My point is it's obviously not possible to hit Aimed Shot every 8.25 seconds and expect it to go off (due to GCD among other things). One way to make sense out of it is that the spreadsheet considers you to "gain" 0.75 seconds every 9 second rotation (with CS glyph) which would mean moving AS up one GCD every other rotation, which theoretically makes sense but again it seems to me that in practise GCD prevents doing so. You have 1 extra second cooldown on AS every 9 second rotation but there doesn't seem to be any way of "saving" them up to make a 1.5 second leap. Then again if your rotation is delayed 0.5 seconds or more because of Steady casting longer than 1.5 seconds, it becomes somewhat feasible again.
In any such case it just seems to me to lend to a very awkward style of play, but to each his own I guess.
The point was that the spreadsheet calculates the DPS increase from aimed glyph as if aimed shot has a frequency of 8.25, which is as you state, wrong. It will move up one GCD every other rotation. Therefore the dps increase from the glyph on the spreadsheet is skewed.
If you shoot Arcane next after Chimera, you can shoot 3 Arcanes within two rotations (two in the first 9/10 seconds, one in the second) effectively replacing one Steady Shot with an Arcane, which with most gear and specs results in significant dps gain. The rotation basically goes:
When speaking of using Arcane over Aimed, in order to use that rotation you must not be glyphed for Chimera or Aimed. I believe Vongimi is using both Chimera and Aimed glyphs. In that case you still replace a Steady with Arcane each rotation but it looks like this instead:
Only difference is that after the second Chimera, Aimed and Steady are switched. I noticed that even though the number of each shot per rotation is effectively the same with or without the Chimera/Aimed glyph combo, that using Kill/Steady will yield better DPS. Using the Chimera/Aimed combo only seems to make that second Aimed shot come one GCD sooner.
As far as I can tell using Arcane before Aimed with the Kill Shot/Steady Shot glyphs is the way to go.
We've known about DK and shaman abilities not overwriting it for awhile. What does happen though is TSA goes away while the shaman and DK buffs are present, then comes back automatically.
What isn't known is while the TSA buff is gone, does the glyph still work.
What is the difference between overwritting and "going away"? Would that not be the same thing?
In Kologarn where I was next to the Blood DK, I had 100% TSA uptime (as did he). In the Iron Council when we were seperated, I had 100% TSA uptime and when we got closer together on the last boss in the Iron Council, I still maintained the 100% uptime while the Blood DK's abom might was replaced by TSA!
On rewriting: if you have TSA and shamans's Rage activates, TSA icon becomes replaced with Rage icon for the duration of his buff. After it ends, TSA icon automatically appears.
If WWS does parses logs correctly, then TSA is really active all the time, and icon replacement is only a visual effect.
Therefore, TSA glyph should also work all the time.
What is the difference between overwritting and "going away"? Would that not be the same thing?
Before it was fixed, when you got the DK or shaman buff, TSA would never come back after the buff faded. You could go for half a fight before realizing you didn't have TSA. Now after the DK/shaman buff fades, TSA automatically gets reapplied.
When speaking of using Arcane over Aimed, in order to use that rotation you must not be glyphed for Chimera or Aimed. I believe Vongimi is using both Chimera and Aimed glyphs. In that case you still replace a Steady with Arcane each rotation but it looks like this instead:
Only difference is that after the second Chimera, Aimed and Steady are switched. I noticed that even though the number of each shot per rotation is effectively the same with or without the Chimera/Aimed glyph combo, that using Kill/Steady will yield better DPS. Using the Chimera/Aimed combo only seems to make that second Aimed shot come one GCD sooner.
As far as I can tell using Arcane before Aimed with the Kill Shot/Steady Shot glyphs is the way to go.
That rotation is impossible to maintain; there is 7.5 seconds between your two Aimed Shots now, so even with Aimed Shot glyph it would mean you delay a 18 second rotation with 0.5 seconds every time, which would be alot. The only way for a MM rotation with Chimera and Aimed glyph to work is like this:
C Arc Aim S S Arc
C S Aim Arc S S
C Arc Aim S S Arc
C S Aim Arc S S
etc.
In other words, its the 18 second rotation Vongimi described, the one I'm using now. It effectively means you use Chimera and Aimed every 9 seconds, and Arcane every 6 seconds. The shots cooldowns never line up, apart from Aimed Shot coming off cooldown as you are casting a Steady Shot in lines 2 and 4, or 0.5 seconds after you have fired an Arcane Shot in line 1 and 3.
One could argue that you might as well wait those 0.5 seconds to fire your Aimed, but you would still have to wait 1 full second after that to fire your Arcane Shot in line 2 and 4 (that doesnt include GCD), and you skip your Arc in line 1 and 3.
If one were to prioritize Aimed over Arcane with both Aimed and Chimera Glyphs we would get something like this:
C Aim Arc S S S
C Aim Arc S S S
C Aim Arc S S S
Obviously this means less specials overall (as was demonstrated before). Only positive thing about this means all Improved Steady Shot procs (if specced for it) would go to Chimera.
If WWS does parses logs correctly, then TSA is really active all the time, and icon replacement is only a visual effect.
Therefore, TSA glyph should also work all the time.
Where do you see WWS showing that TSA is "active all the time"?
This filtered log (from valiloramov) shows one buff being removed each time the other shows up: Wow Web Stats
This Trueshot Aura analysis show 74% uptime for valiloramov: Wow Web Stats
Where do you see WWS showing that TSA is "active all the time"?
This filtered log (from valiloramov) shows one buff being removed each time the other shows up: Wow Web Stats
Hmm, I've never looked into the log in that much detail (didn't know you could filter it like that). Anyway, it seems to be going from other people but my TSA didn't get removed in there? I guess if it gets replaced on other people it doesn't really matter.
This Trueshot Aura analysis show 74% uptime for valiloramov: Wow Web Stats
That's for overall uptime, I guess there was some time where I wasn't in combat or something? Surely the best example would be when I was standing near the Blood DK for the whole fight - in range of Abom might? (Kologarn)
This would net you a better overview, since the behavior for the spell should be the same for all and the only one we truly care about here is the hunter himself. Of particular interest is this:
1:37'37.675 Valilor Trueshot Aura was removed from Valilor. #118217
1:37'37.676 Valilor gains Abominable Might. #118218
1:37'47.653 Calindros Abominable Might was removed from Valilor. #118518
1:37'47.654 Valilor gains Trueshot Aura. #118519
1:37'50.914 Valilor Trueshot Aura was removed from Valilor. #118668
1:37'50.914 Valilor gains Abominable Might. #118669
Abominable Might drops off, TSA applies but then gets overwritten by Abominable Might again. Looking through the entire log though, there are several kills/attempts where Valilor does not get Abominable Might but where he has TSA. The Blood DK was not switched out or anything? The log would seem to indicate that he was not though.
There's some other weird priority system going on here. In the log, there's no indication that TSA was initially applied in the boss fight so it's reasonable to assume that TSA was on before the fight even started. As such it would not register the buff being applied, but I'm not sure how exactly WWS applies filters across entire logs. I'm assuming it only keeps boss fight segments and discards the rest. Then it shows it being overwritten by Abominable Might.
So in some cases it gets overwritten and in some it doesn't? I can't extrapolate any theory as to why it gets overwritten sometimes and others not.
That's especially disturbing as the spreadsheet currently considers the TSA glyph to be the best choice DPS-wise for my gear in an MM spec due to the insane Aimed Shot crit it provides. If TSA is truly being overwritten then that glyph's usefulness is greatly diminished as if wouldn't be working when the aura was not in effect.
That's especially disturbing as the spreadsheet currently considers the TSA glyph to be the best choice DPS-wise for my gear in an MM spec due to the insane Aimed Shot crit it provides. If TSA is truly being overwritten then that glyph's usefulness is greatly diminished as if wouldn't be working when the aura was not in effect.
It would be quite helpful if someone that uses the TSA glyph could give us a log while using the /cancelaura Abominable Might / Unleashed Rage additions to all their shots. The question is, if you macro it together with your aimed, will TSA activate in time for the aimed to get the benefit? It would at least be a solution if you could just macro the cancelaura stuff into your shots, annoying but it'd still work.
Last edited by Whitemane : 06/16/09 at 9:14 PM.
Reason: Removed unfounded conjecture
I have a question regarding the use of readiness. When you pop rapid fire, do u hit readiness right after? Or do you wait until the RF buff has faded from you, then hit readiness and RF once more?
I'm assuming the latter option to make the CD's fit together, but would like to hear what the rest of you do.
I have a question regarding the use of readiness. When you pop rapid fire, do u hit readiness right after? Or do you wait until the RF buff has faded from you, then hit readiness and RF once more?
I'm assuming the latter option to make the CD's fit together, but would like to hear what the rest of you do.
Personally I pop rapid fire and then fire CS, ArS, AimS and then pop readiness so I can shoot CS ArS AimS again.
It doesn't matter which way you do it.
One way to do it is:
0:00 - Rapid fire
0:01 - Readiness
0:15 - Rapid fire
-------------------
3:15 - Rapid fire
3:16 - Readiness
3:30 - Rapid fire
The other way with timing it should look like this:
0:00 - Rapid fire
0:13 - Readiness
0:15 - Rapid fire
-------------------
3:15 - Rapid fire
3:28 - Readiness
3:30 - Rapid fire
The key difference is that if you use Rapid - all 3 CD shots (CH, ArS, AS) - Readiness you reset all the shots at the same time + Rapid fire. You can't do that at the 15 sec mark ( before the 2nd Rapid fire ) without delaying something in your rotation. However, you delay Readiness a bit but it doesn't matter since it will always be ready before your Rapid fire is.
@Rhy Thanks for doing that, I was going to write it out myself but I don't need to now!
I usually go RF - fire all shots until RF is expired and then do readiness, sometimes its a few seconds later as I like to make sure Chimera, Aimed and Arcane are all on CD before using readiniess.
One other thing si do is guage how long the fight is. If I'm only going to get another 1 RF/Readiniss in, I don't use it immidetly on CD, I wait till the boss is near 20% so I can readiness a Kill Shot.
It would be quite helpful if someone that uses the TSA glyph could give us a log while using the /cancelaura Abominable Might / Unleashed Rage additions to all their shots. The question is, if you macro it together with your aimed, will TSA activate in time for the aimed to get the benefit? It would at least be a solution if you could just macro the cancelaura stuff into your shots, annoying but it'd still work.
well I shall have such Logs, for yesterday I was raiding with a Blood DK, and am using a TSA Glyph.
But I am pretty sure you are Mistaken, disapearrance of TSA, is just a visual effect. I see it active all the Fight, no matter Shaman and DKs buffs.
So no need to cancel others effect. It's very different concerning Hunter's Mark, where the last is active. and can fastly be an issue, concerning the three points you put in Improved Hunter's Mark.
edit : Aimed Shot and Multi Shot at 64 % Crit, no difference between both may prove that the Glyph is doing, well, nothing.
I have a question regarding gemming for armor pen for MM. I saw it suggested that you drop Arcane from the rotation if you go this route, as it does not benefit from the stacked armor pen. This gear set also suggests having 50% armor pen from gear and relying on trinket procs to get to 100%. Would keeping arcane in the rotation except for trinket procs net higher dps than dropping it from the rotation all together?
Keeping arcane in the rotation nets a lower dps because those builds specifically choose to not talent into Imp Arcane Shot in favor of Improved Steady Shot and Improved Barrage. By pulling Arcane out of the rotation you get the benefits of ISS procs being guaranteed to apply on Chimera as well as reducing mana usage. Steady's damage (including the benefit from Piercing Shots) as well as increased efficiency and the ISS benefit outweighs the damage of a non-talented Arcane - especially when you're geared with ArP which specifically benefits Steady over Arcane.
So I decided to gear/gem for ArP tonight and I'm not particularly pleased with the results. From the standpoint of stand and shoot DPS it seems to do fine, but it relies too much on Steady as well as making sure ISS procs are eaten up by CS. With so many movement based fights there's no reason not to use arcane when on the run or killing a target without sunders, thus eating ISS procs. Also by using CS or Aimed while moving you throw off your rotation and your CDs lineup so that you are weaving steadies between shots rather than 4 in a row, again defeating the purpose of ISS.
I'm going to see how the remainder of this reset and next reset go, but while on paper its better, in practice I don't see ArP becoming better than Agi.
Trickytrout, have you had bad luck with gear drops or did you consciously decide to equip sub-optimal gear that had ArP? The cloak and ring for example, while having ArP, is still significantly inferior to gear available before Ulduar Hard modes. The gear you're currently equiping as per armory also does not break the 650 ArP threshold which is the approximate threshold that ArP outperforms Agility. It would then make sense that you'ld see worse results than the same gear setup but with Agility gems, for example.
As to the playstyle, we all have our comfort zones and some may argue that it would be possible to achieve a close to optimal shot rotation while moving as long as you line up your movement with the usage of Chimera and Aimed shots and possibly play perfectly. I'm sure the more experience we have on certain fights, the better we are able to anticipate movement ahead of time. Of course, you can't guarantee this for all fights because of RNG and that's ultimately the limitation of the spreadsheet. It's always been up to us whether or not to spec for a pure tank and spank. Just keep in mind that the BIS thread and underlying spreadsheet mechanics are based off this optimal situation.
After reading some of the recent posts i have become a little intrigued on MM's correct shot rotations. I understand that there is no 1 hard and fast way of having a correct shot rotation but rather it comes down to the glyphs that have been chosen and what kind of stats one is utilizing e.g haste or armor penetc. Im a fairly well geared hunter and i have done 14/14 in ulduar both 10 and 25 man ( currently trying to complete Hodir in hard mode.) There a 3 hunters in my 25 man raid with the 2 others both SV. Im the only hunter really going for Armour Pen (with crit as my next priority) as the others go for the traditional agility/ap/crit/haste stats. In order for me to go for max Armour Pen i have decided to go for only 2 tier 8 pieces, and i need to pick up Saronite Mesh Leggings, Mantle of Fiery Vengeance, and Lotrafen's spear of the damned to go with the gear i already have ( by all means please check armoury). My question is, is if i get my armour pen to the point that i want it at (geting the gear i just mentioned) what glyphs and shot rotation would best help me get the most out of it? I keep hearing that Armour Pen relys on Steady Shot too much, but from my understanding everything except explosive shot, serpent sting and arcane shot uses it. Therefore, aimed and chimera as well as steady will all benefit from my armour pen. At the moment im glyphed into Kill Shot (i believe Kill Shot benefits from armour pen too as it goes of weapon dge), Chimera shot, and serpent sting. Im very interested in hearing some feedback from the EJ Hunter community on which glyphs combined with shot rotation will best benefit a MM hunter that is heavily geared into Armour Pen. Thank You
A common mistake. Chimera is nature damage, both the normal shot and the serpent sting part. Meaning it doesn't benefit from the ArP.
About the glyphs - I would go for Steady/Kill/Serpent. Its more of a gut feeling than something I can back up with numbers. I simply prefer the way shots line up without the Chimera/Aimed glyphs.
Edit: Also, if you are going ArP heavy, you drop Arcane shot out of the rotation. So it goes like this: Chimera - Aimed - 4xSteady, then repeat. If you use Chimera/Aimed glyphs things change slightly.
06/16/09, 12:43 AM
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