Did you even read? No matter what speed you weapon is, if DPS is the same, your SS hits will be the same. SS also uses a normalised damage range from your weapon. I never said anything about AP normalisation.
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Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
SimulationCraft Druid Guy
I'm gonna agree here. After extensive testing on target dummy and a couple hours on the spreadsheet, I found that my DPS stayed either the same or slightly higher without Arcane shot in my rotation. With the spreadsheet I could actually get it around 300 DPS more. After finding this, I moved the points into improved barrage (ideally buffing aimed as much as possible) and 1 into improved hunters mark (may change HM point later).
Extended logic also being that the majority of MM damage is autoshot w/wildquiver proc so we should be standing still as much as possible (IMO arguably more than SV hunters even considering sniper training, but thats just my opinion).
Raided hardmode Hodir and IC last night with new setup (no arc shot unless moving) and pulled 9200 dps on hodir, and ended over 6k on hardmode IC. This is only with ~250 ArP and with me providing nature resist aspect for IC (and a 400dps issue with my pet I need to figure out).
I think you guys are on to something, excluding arcane shot, even if you're not "soft capped" ArP. However, I would guess that you'd want at least a certain level of kit before you see a significant DPS increase. For now, its nice to get 4-5 SS's in to proc improved steady shot for use with Chimera shot.
Originally Posted by Gaahl
I noticed while playing with the spreadsheet that dropping Arcane seems to be a viable option even without going the ArPen route (gear depending of course). After replacing 3 points in Improved Arcane with 3 in ISS and removing Arcane from my rotation, my output only dropped ~4dps with my current Agi-based setup. I ran a 10 man Uld tonight with it and performed great - the only exception was Hodir where I added it back into my rotation for the magic damage buff. It was nice to remove a bit of the whack-a-mole while still having Arcane ready if I needed it on the run.
Level 83 Target Dummy, replaced DMC with Mirror of Truth to avoid spikes in critical strike % - 41.73% crit during the time of this parse.
Sample with a Blood Deathknight - TSA didnt get overwritten for me, except once when i canceled it for 2-3 seconds on purpose to see whether ill gain Abominations Might.
Wierd results, the combat log doesnt show me gaining Unleashed Rage, and according to it i didnt have TSA either, however it was up all the time. I had 10-11% lower crit % on my aimed shot though, and although the sample is small, it seems like those two are idd conflicting in some way , for me the glyph seems to be unusable :s
I'm gonna agree here. After extensive testing on target dummy and a couple hours on the spreadsheet, I found that my DPS stayed either the same or slightly higher without Arcane shot in my rotation. With the spreadsheet I could actually get it around 300 DPS more. After finding this, I moved the points into improved barrage (ideally buffing aimed as much as possible) and 1 into improved hunters mark (may change HM point later).
Extended logic also being that the majority of MM damage is autoshot w/wildquiver proc so we should be standing still as much as possible (IMO arguably more than SV hunters even considering sniper training, but thats just my opinion).
Raided hardmode Hodir and IC last night with new setup (no arc shot unless moving) and pulled 9200 dps on hodir, and ended over 6k on hardmode IC. This is only with ~250 ArP and with me providing nature resist aspect for IC (and a 400dps issue with my pet I need to figure out).
I think you guys are on to something, excluding arcane shot, even if you're not "soft capped" ArP. However, I would guess that you'd want at least a certain level of kit before you see a significant DPS increase. For now, its nice to get 4-5 SS's in to proc improved steady shot for use with Chimera shot.
Removing arcane shot from your rotation for hodir is a terrible idea, as it is one of the shots that are affected by the singed debuff. Hodir and Vezax are two fights where your magical damage far outweighs your physical damage, and you'll want to maximize attack power and crit over armor pen.
So I've been asked to go MM for a 10 man Ulduar group this week, and it will be my first time raiding as MM since classic. I have done extremely well as survival, and the spreadsheet models my dps as a small loss switching over to MM. I am currently logged out in PvE gear (some items were being used for pvp over the weekend so I have to regem them). Our main concern is getting down hard mode Mimiron, as all the other fights we view as a joke (haven't done 1 light but we have been using most of our time to get Mimiron down first, as we expect that fight to be easier). I don't want to under-perform compared to what I normally do as survival, so I'm wondering if going with a MM spec that includes Aspect mastery would be more beneficial then the traditional 7/57/7 spec. Since improved tracking has no effect on the last 3 bosses in Ulduar (Mim, General, Yog), would I experience a dps gain going with a 14/57/0 spec or something of that nature since I would gain aspect mastery and possibly 3 points in unleashed fury. I could spend all day playing with specs on a spreadsheet, but that still doesn't account for actual experience with these encounters, and the opinion of MM raiders on how viable 2 points in Survival Instincts compares to any build that puts no points in Improved Tracking (and therefor no points in Surv. Inst.) in favor of some x/5x/0 spec. Also note we won't have sunder armors, which accounts for some of the dps loss.
In hard mode Mimiron your pet stands little chance of surviving so I would put the fewest points in talents to buff him. I leave my pet outside of the room so I get the buffs and the pet stays alive. It usually dies in P2 via the machine gun barrage.
I find Hawk Eye very useful in HM MM. With all the hazards that need to be avoided and the limited space available the extra 6 yards comes in mighty handy.
As far as SI, it does reduce your damage by 4 percent and adds some crit. The less damage taken the better IMO. Granted you would have to take 2 points in Imp Tracking to get there, however I think it would be worth it.
Your spec will also depend on whether or not you are the only hunter and need to provide Imp HM. Also your spec may need to include TSA depending on your raid makeup. Here is a spec that provides both.
To clarify some questions and debate about how weapon speed may or may not effect damage of individual shots I did some testing this afternoon to confirm how I always thought it had worked (based on blizzards explainations). I'm sure many of you already know this, but, for those who are unsure, I hope this clears things up for you:
Aimed Shot - only attack power is normalized, slower weapon of same dps will hit harder
Multi-Shot - only attack power is normalized, slower weapon of same dps will hit harder
Kill Shot - only attack power is normalized, slower weapon of same dps will hit harder
Chimera Shot(non-Serpent component) - only attack power is normalized, slower weapon of same dps will hit harder
Chimera Shot(Serpent Sting component) - based only on attack power, slower weapon of same dps will not hit harder
Silencing Shot - does exactly 50% of the damage of an auto-shot, slower weapon of same dps will hit harder
Steady Shot - weapon damage and attack power are both normalized, slower weapon of same dps will not hit harder
Serpent Sting - based only on attack power, slower weapon of same dps will not hit harder
Arcane Shot - based only on attack power, slower weapon of same dps will not hit harder
Feel free to do your own tests to confirm or correct my findings.
Last edited by Faroth4Realz : 06/22/09 at 8:37 PM.
To clarify some questions and debate about how weapon speed may or may not effect damage of individual shots I did some testing this afternoon to confirm how I always thought it had worked (based on blizzards explainations). I'm sure many of you already know this, but, for those who are unsure, I hope this clears things up for you:
Aimed Shot - only attack power is normalized, slower weapon of same dps will hit harder
Multi-Shot - only attack power is normalized, slower weapon of same dps will hit harder
Kill Shot - only attack power is normalized, slower weapon of same dps will hit harder
Chimera Shot(non-Serpent component) - only attack power is normalized, slower weapon of same dps will hit harder
Chimera Shot(Serpent Sting component) - based only on attack power, slower weapon of same dps will not hit harder
Silencing Shot - does exactly 50% of the damage of an auto-shot, slower weapon of same dps will hit harder
Steady Shot - weapon damage and attack power are both normalized, slower weapon of same dps will not hit harder
Serpent Sting - based only on attack power, slower weapon of same dps will not hit harder
Arcane Shot - based only on attack power, slower weapon of same dps will not hit harder
Feel free to do your own tests to confirm or correct my findings.
Well, i assume that your tests are correct and you hit harder with some skills with a weapon like Magnetized Projectile Emitter (3.0 speed).
But what about amount of auto shots, wild quilvers that you lose because of slower weapon?
Also considering max damage of weapons: Magnetized Projectile Emitter(3.0), which is 708, and for example Giants Bane(2.9) which equals 684, do you realise that you only gain 3.5% more max damage using slower weapon (708/684)
?
So if my calculations are correct you get 3,5% more damage done on each steady, aimed, multi and 7% more damage on kill shot.
But what about amount of auto shots, wild quilvers that you lose because of slower weapon?
What, the auto shots and wild quivers that will hit harder because of the higher average damage?
Originally Posted by tulkass
Also considering max damage of weapons: Magnetized Projectile Emitter(3.0), which is 708, and for example Giants Bane(2.9) which equals 684, do you realise that you only gain 3.5% more max damage using slower weapon (708/684)
?
So if my calculations are correct you get 3,5% more damage done on each steady, aimed, multi and 7% more damage on kill shot.
Is it worth, dont know yet.
First of all, max damage is not what you should be considering but average damage instead (a slower weapon with same dps has necessarily higher average than a faster one but not necessarily higher max). Secondly the only mechanism for hunters that seems to benefit from faster weapon is Improved Aspect of the Hawk, and that alone won't make up for the difference in special shot (bar Steady) damage.
Also considering max damage of weapons: Magnetized Projectile Emitter(3.0), which is 708, and for example Giants Bane(2.9) which equals 684, do you realise that you only gain 3.5% more max damage using slower weapon (708/684)
?
So if my calculations are correct you get 3,5% more damage done on each steady, aimed, multi and 7% more damage on kill shot.
As a 3.0 weapon is only 3.4% slower than a 2.9 speed weapon, I don't think you're losing much from Auto shot and the overall outcome is positive, particularly in this case where both weapons have the same base DPS, so should produce the same overall Auto shot damage.
As a 3.0 weapon is only 3.4% slower than a 2.9 speed weapon, I don't think you're losing much from Auto shot and the overall outcome is positive.
You might be right. Hope i can get 3.0 weapon soon and finally be able to do some tests.
Well with all raid buffs and wielding 2.9 weapon (including improved retri aura), my auto shot is 2.26, so with 3.0 weapon it will be 2.34.
This means that in 5 min fight you will have
132 auto shots with 2.9 weapon
128 auto shots with 3.0 weapon.
I dont count effects like improved aspect of the hawk, BL, rapid fire, berserking.
So 3,5% more average damage on 3.0 weapon autoshot times 128 auto shots in 5 min fight = 448%, which is propably a little more than 4 additional auto shots with 2,9 weapon. You get like 0,48% of auto shot while using slower weapon.
Correct me if i am wrong.
@ Gaetano: Comparing minimum damage of 3.0 and 2.9 weapon i found out that the difference was also about 3.5% so i presumed average damage should be same.
Well, i assume that your tests are correct and you hit harder with some skills with a weapon like Magnetized Projectile Emitter (3.0 speed).
But what about amount of auto shots, wild quilvers that you lose because of slower weapon?
Also considering max damage of weapons: Magnetized Projectile Emitter(3.0), which is 708, and for example Giants Bane(2.9) which equals 684, do you realise that you only gain 3.5% more max damage using slower weapon (708/684)
?
So if my calculations are correct you get 3,5% more damage done on each steady, aimed, multi and 7% more damage on kill shot.
Is it worth, dont know yet.
Sorry to tell you, but your calculations can't be correct, as you seem to just ignore normalisation.
Additionally: steady won't hit for more with a slower weapon, did you even read the post you quoted?
You even quoted the list with details about how each shot is normalised and then managed to ignore the whole thing just a few sentences later.
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
SimulationCraft Druid Guy
Sorry to tell you, but your calculations can't be correct, as you seem to just ignore normalisation.
Additionally: steady won't hit for more with a slower weapon, did you even read the post you quoted?
You even quoted the list with details about how each shot is normalised and then managed to ignore the whole thing just a few sentences later.
Sorry. You are right about that. My mistake.
But if certain skills are based on weapon damage + % of AP, does that mean that that skill is based on maximum weapon damage or average damage?
The tooltip says: weapon damage, which is confusing.
The intersting thing is that I didn't get my own TSA (despite recasting it after I got rebirthed) but my friends one.
I didn't fire enough AiS that raid to provide real solid data (Vezax and onwards is in SV), but I think the glyph works, given the fact you regain your own TSA and not you neighbour's.
It was by coincidence I discovered this because normally the other MM hunter wouldn't have had TSA.
But if certain skills are based on weapon damage + % of AP, does that mean that that skill is based on maximum weapon damage or average damage?
Neither. It just means your weapon damage range + 0.2*RAP + associated bonus damage ((401 to 684) + 900 + 456 for rank9 Aimed Shot in case of Giant's Bane, 4500 RAP and AS talents). Otherwise your specials wound always (well, all other things being equal) hit for the same amount.
In the long run, the weapon damage portion naturally tends to its average so average is what you want to consider; maximum is completely irrelevant for dps purposes.
Disclaimer: this is pretty basic stuff, easy to look up and shouldn't need to be posted here. Also a shit ton of multipliers not relevant to the discussion were omitted.
Unless there is something I'm missing, both autoshot DPS and wild quiver DPS should not be affected by weapon speed. Sure, with slow weapon there will be less wild quiver procs, but each will do more damage.
So the only thing slower weapon changes is increasing aimed/multi/killshot/chimera damage, which can't possibly be a loss of DPS.
Ok, i've been reading up on the ArP spec and tryin to get 650ArP or so, but if your trying to get 100% Armor reduction with either grim toll or mjolnir runestone proccing, dont having Sunder Armor and Fairy Fire on the target make it so u only need like 400 or so ArP rating to get 100% armor reduction for that target?
Also, I dont see how people are getting these large numbers of 7-8k dps, in a 25man raid fully buffed on a sit and shoot fight like XT I can only pull like 4500 or so at max, ya my gear isnt the greatest, but even our highest dps usually Rogue is like around 6200dps or so. I really dont see how the best buffs or even BiS gear could change DPS so significantly. Even doing IC normal way and getting lucky with the blue runes I believe I got up to like 5600dps, help if possilbe!
Ok, i've been reading up on the ArP spec and tryin to get 650ArP or so, but if your trying to get 100% Armor reduction with either grim toll or mjolnir runestone proccing, dont having Sunder Armor and Fairy Fire on the target make it so u only need like 400 or so ArP rating to get 100% armor reduction for that target?
Also, I dont see how people are getting these large numbers of 7-8k dps, in a 25man raid fully buffed on a sit and shoot fight like XT I can only pull like 4500 or so at max, ya my gear isnt the greatest, but even our highest dps usually Rogue is like around 6200dps or so. I really dont see how the best buffs or even BiS gear could change DPS so significantly. Even doing IC normal way and getting lucky with the blue runes I believe I got up to like 5600dps, help if possilbe!
In regards to the ArPen question, ArPen is calculated after both Sunder and Fairy Fire, so regardless of the debuffs on the boss, before the application of your ArPen rating, you always "see" the boss as having 100% armor.
Ok, i've been reading up on the ArP spec and tryin to get 650ArP or so, but if your trying to get 100% Armor reduction with either grim toll or mjolnir runestone proccing, dont having Sunder Armor and Fairy Fire on the target make it so u only need like 400 or so ArP rating to get 100% armor reduction for that target?
Also, I dont see how people are getting these large numbers of 7-8k dps, in a 25man raid fully buffed on a sit and shoot fight like XT I can only pull like 4500 or so at max, ya my gear isnt the greatest, but even our highest dps usually Rogue is like around 6200dps or so. I really dont see how the best buffs or even BiS gear could change DPS so significantly. Even doing IC normal way and getting lucky with the blue runes I believe I got up to like 5600dps, help if possilbe!
The spreadsheet assumes perfect conditions (no movement, high latency etc) and averages out all RNG. That said, your dps still seems a bit low.
Sorry. You are right about that. My mistake.
But if certain skills are based on weapon damage + % of AP, does that mean that that skill is based on maximum weapon damage or average damage?
The tooltip says: weapon damage, which is confusing.
If your weapon does 50-100 damage, a special that does double weapon damage will deal 100-200 damage. A special that deals weapon damage + 50 deals 100-150 damage.
EDIT: It follows that a skill that deals weapon damage plus 20% of your AP would, at 1000 AP, deal 50-100 + 200 or 250 to 300 damage.
Hunter T9 2P Bonus (Class: Hunter) -- Reduces the focus cost of your pet's abilities by 50%.
Hunter T9 4P Bonus (Steady Shot) (Class: Hunter) -- Increases the critical strike chance of your Steady Shot ability by 5%.
2T9 seems not bad for MM (with 1\2 Gftt), but what about 4T9 ?
Well, take the spreadsheet, look how much dps comes from your steady shot.
Add 5% crit to it, considering "mortal shots/marked for death/piercing shots/metagem" = +11% damages on steady shot
Don't forget it is 4T9, so tou will have more arp and basically your steadies will hit for more, and the dps that comes from them will be greater as now, and you will have your response.
For exemple, I personally lose 866 dps when I do not use Steady shot at all in the spreasheet, meaning that with that bonus on my actual stuff, I would gain 95 dps.
Nice 4 parts bonus.
But survival and BM hunetr won't like it as MM will (marked for death and piercing shots helps a lot, it would be +6.85% for other specs).
As for me it seems worse than 2t8, especially as i cant have 2t8 and 4t9 at same time.
That's why im not really sure its good bonus.
But we need to know stats (agi,+arp,+crit, etc) on t9 for better comparison.
06/22/09, 6:14 AM
while using slower weapon.
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