I agree with Puppyeater. Having lightly read over the new loot drops posted on MMO, nearly all of the gear seems to stack ArP pretty decently, so it will make reaching the softcap much easier.

I know depending on the gear I have, and what I use atm, I have less agi than I would like due to gemming heavily for ArP. =/

Just a quick clarification.

When you're talking about reapplying SrS when you're inside a +% damage modifier, you only reapply it once correct? I.e. first shadow crash drops from vezax, enter -> reapply -> refresh via CS as normal, correct? The premise, of course, being that the +% buffed SrS will endure indefinitely as long as it is contiuously refreshed (even if this behaviour is a bug that may shortly be removed).

If that's true, I guess this will also work with TBW as a BM hunter? they wouldn't be able to continuously benefit from it like a MM hunter but it's still a buff for them.

EDIT: Actually... what's the story with this % damage affecting serpent sting if the modifer comes in the form of a debuff on the boss? I'm mostly talking about the 'singed' debuff on Hodir which gives +% magic damage. Will this also imply that we will reapply our SrS every few stacks of the singed debuff in place of a steady shot (or during the flash freeze)?

On the topic of Shadow Crash (and Hodir starlight for that matter)... and Magic vs Physical damage...

Much like we have ArPen sets for most encounters, does anyone think it's remotely possible to have a 0 ArPen set, stack haste to 800-1100 rating, and using these 100% casting speed buffs, just channel ultra-fast volleys between arcane shots for any sort of DPS gain? We're normally tied to this 1.5s GCD, but with enough haste (and the buffed nature of 'magic' damage on these types of fights), it's only a matter of multipliers before a channeled spell would be a net gain. If I recall, isn't Autoshot still capped at 0.5s as well? It's been some time since I cared much about haste, so maybe those mechanics have changed.

Anyhow, the (seemingly horrible) idea would be a full magic damage rotation spec'ing MM through Imp Barrage (preventing interrupts) then hitting SV into Noxious Stings for some +%. Something like:
Sting > Arcane Shot > Volley, Volley

There's even a couple of trinket choices out there for +haste that have magic damage procs (which are now fixed to work with channeled spells). It was just a random thought I had after I noticed that I had some big volley crits on Hodir while using starlight to AoE a group of flash freeze.

EDIT: Typos.

That's correct; the %damage modifier will remain active on Serpent Sting as long as you keep that specific sting up the entire fight (i.e. if you apply SrS when standing in a Shadowcrash at start of fight, but have to run out at some point because of Mark of Faceless - or if you get knockbacked by another shadowcrash for some reason - you will lose the buffed Serpent Sting). This goes for Thaddius, Malygos, Iron Council and Vezax. Additionally, Tricks of the Trade actually buffs it as well by 15%

As for a BM hunter; it is true that when you apply SrS during TBW it will tick for slightly more, but i believe the gcd is better spent on another shot (though that might not be the case). Either way, it doesn't matter since you can't keep that sting ticking indefinitely.

Finally, like i said in a reply in 'Simple questions, simple answers'; %damage modifiers as a buff on you (the 4 bosses i mentioned and TotT) make it worthwhile and extremely important to re apply Serpent Sting manually, where as %damage modifier debuffs on the target (such as Singed at Hodir, Curse of the Elements, Earth and Moon) make no difference for Serpent Sting; in the latter case Chimera and Serpent Sting will just look at the debuffs present on boss (in other words, the moment Singed/CoE fades from the boss, Serpent Sting will start ticking for a tad lower.)

I am, and I'm seeing the same in the web-based analyser as well. (Of course, I can't actually test this properly, lacking an ArP trinket, but...)

So, some very rough pencil maths (thought I would have a look at this, as it interested me greatly).

http://wowwebstats.com/qryvh5u1d3kra...000000004140d5


that is my attack breakdowns for our longest IC HM try that I could see (5 mins 34 secs or 334 seconds for my active dps).

Of all my attacks, the two that would retain TotT after it ran out are Serpent sting (which did 80,321 Damage) and Chimera Shot - Serpent (which did 132,991 damage). So, if TotT was applied as we switch to each new boss, the dps gain would be (correct me if I'm wrong):

213,312 x 1.15 = 245,308.8

a difference of 31,996 damage. Adding that to the total damage done on that try to get dps for that try:

(2,117,667 + 31,996)/334 = 6,436.1 DPS

As you can see this is the same DPS I pulled anyway... but you would need to add the +15% damage to all other shots for the length of TotT so this number isn't massively accurate, but I think it shows that the gain isn't as much as expected. So maybe not a notcable dps increase afterall, but still, nice to work things out! ^^ Please correct me if I messed up the math (which is entirely possible).

Two things:

First of all, it must be coincidence that (2,117,667 + 31,996)/334 gives the same number your WWS shows (6,436), even though the WWS shows you did 2,117,667/334 dps which would be 6340 dps. 6436/6340 x 100% would show a 1.5% increase from TotT, which is below the expected % increase (i estimated 2.25% earlier, since SrS + Chimera-SrS is about 15% of our damage.)

Secondly, and this is more important: your Serpent Sting ticked for 836 averagely, with highest tick being 953. This means you didn't use the blue circles to manually re apply SrS. This has two consequences; your Serpent Sting won't be buffed on itself, and in addition to that its damage gets devalued since the rest of your shots are in fact affected by the blue circle (SrS + Chimera-SrS did 10% of your total damage, when normally it does 15% in my case, perhaps this differs per hunter)

Not sure in which order you kill the 3 bosses, but if you kill the Runecaller first, it makes sense you can't make full use
of blue circles. Since the serpent sting (and Chimera-Serpent as a result) does lower damage, it probably leads to the expected 1.5% increase from TotT using your WWS, instead of 2.25% like it should be (or more if you manage to apply Serpent Sting while standing in the last rune circle the Runemaster spawns before he dies. That's probably a reason to kill Runemaster second so you get to keep the circle for Steelbreaker.

Edit; I agree that the buff you get from TotT might not be game-breaking (only 3% at most) but it is still a damage increase, worthy to take a look at. One can make a /w macro to rogues in your guild 'Buff me with TotT now plz' which you press when you stand inside a blue circle (or first Shadowcrash, or start of Hodir fight). Combine it with an addon like Power Auras and you can easily react to the 6 second buff, which you use to manually apply SrS.

Thanks for clearing things up, maths really isn't my strong point. You are idd right that we kill Runemaster first. Also, not refreshing serpent sting in the blue rune I will have to start being more vigilant on. As for the wws error (wrong dps, I didn't notice this; if I had I would have agreed with you that this buff is very nice to have. Alot clearer now, thanks for correcting me, after all always nice to have another way to increase hunter damage ^^

The only potential downside to this, is that on IC hard mode I have big problems with FD not clearing my threat from the Runemaster (we are killing him first too). So if you camp a rune for too long and get a ToT on top of it, things might get messy.
And also, while talking about the ToT buff, have anyone done the math about Hysteria? It is only physical damage anyway, and thus better spent on other classes. But anyway, how much of a boost will it be?

If a guild decides to do Runemaster second, and killing dwarf first, that would take away the issue of threat (since a tank will have ample time to build threat), plus it allows the use of blue circles for everyone on at least 2 bosses, and Afflic locks, shadowpriests and MM hunters can use the circle to apply their DoT's on Steelbreaker before the last rune circle fades (so basically kill Runemaster just after he has spawned a new circle). Downside of this would be introducing the green circles of death, which might pose issues if cast on Steelbreaker tank or his healers.

Hysteria only buffs physical damage like you said, so no use giving it to hunters for this specific mechanic, and afflic locks/shadowpriests are obvious.

Because of the ArP cap that occurs when the trinket procs there is no need to gem for extra ArP when you hit the magic mark depending on the trinket .

The reply was 2 pages back

Before I start regemming pieces shared by my other sets, I have to confirm this.

These numbers do not take into account of a full raid buff/debuff situation where the target already has 25% armor reduction from sunder/faerie fire and, according to wowhead, these effects stack with personal armor pen? Does this mean the actual personal ArP cap is just 75%, which is obtainable passively without using a proc trinket?

Edit: it seems that armor pen is calculated based on the boss's current armor (after debuffs). Ignore my question.

Just to be sure... Call of the wild doesn't affect SrS as Tricks of th trade does, right? It's just AP buff

From what I recall reading in the spreadsheet thread, the spreadsheet does only average out the procs of the trinket (can't find it at the moment), which would be why it shows you want to gem to 815 ArP instead of the previous numbers stated.

**Double post please delete**

Does this mean that :

As long as the Serpent Sting is kept up by refreshing with Chimera Shot, only the first Serpent Sting is important? So no matter where I stand, the benefits of the buffs will be experienced through the whole fight as long as the Sting is refreshed diligently with Chimera.
[i.e. Stack buffs (Shadowcrash, Spark, etc) --> apply the first Serpent Sting --> step out of buffs (Spark too close to Malygos, lesser stacking for Thaddius, etc) --> refresh with Chimera Shot --> Serpent Sting still ticks with higher coefficient unless it is left to fall of out of its 21 secs duration since last refreshed with Chimera]

OR

The Sting higher coefficient will only be experienced as long as I stand on the aforementioned "boosts" (Shadowcrash, Spark, etc). So whenever I step into a new buff, a new Serpent Sting has to be applied by the skill itself (not Chimera)
[i.e. Stack buffs --> apply the first Serpent Sting + Chimera Shot --> it will tick with higher coefficient --> step out of buffs --> it will tick with lower coefficient --> get new buffs (better Polarity, 2 Malygos Sparks, etc) --> have to reapply Serpent Sting (not with Chimera) + Chimera Shot]


If the second one is true, then does it woth 1 more GCD to reapply Serpent Sting everytime you get new buffs (or higher stacking, as the case for Maly sparks or Thaddius polarity charges)?

It's the first case, that's why it is so important to apply that first SrS at the right time (this mechanic has been with us for a long time though, im surprised few people knew about it).

In short: Shadowcrash lands (or Thaddius charges stack, Iron Council rune circle lands, Malygos spark lands), hunter runs in, applies Serpent Sting, for the rest of fight your sting will tick as if you stood in the Shadowcrash for the entire fight - and as a result CHimera-Serpent as well - while the hunter itself might be standing out of the buff.

Go try it out for yourself: normally SrS ticks for around 800-900, but after Shadowcrash it ticks for double, even when you yourself are no longer using a Shadowcrash.

I have setup my SCTD addon (think I'm using Parrot right now) in such a way so i can see my Serpent Sting ticks seperately; makes it easy to monitor for how much it ticks.

Hello. I am reading this board from a quite long time but never posted, so hi!

Playing with the spreadsheet and my current gear I am having some weird results by gemming ArP and Agi.

The World of Warcraft Armory

In the end it seems that the Agi set up is still better than the Arp set up (best arp set up is at 571, with arp-gemmed saronite mesh legguards) but without the runestone as I don't have it yet.

7804 dps with the Agi and conqueror legs.
7749 dps with arp and saronite mesh legs.

I am missing something? Maybe it's the lack of the runestone that's affects the calculation?

I myself am familiar with the mechanic of applying Serpent Sting at the highest possible AP (especially the case with applying SrS at the highest MoT/FotFF stacks) to cause SrS and subsequently Chimera to hit for more along the fight. However, if I remember correctly, it was mentioned somewhere that this mechanic was fixed and as such the SrS tick will correspond to whatever your current AP is. So I'm interested to know whether this is still the same mechanic with the aforementioned buffs (sparks, shadowcrash, polarity stack, etc).

Also, what makes it that these buffs (aforementioned boss buffs + TotT) still conform the old mechanic (stacking SrS at highest possible AP) while other buffs (trinket stacks) to AP don't? Also will critical strike trinket buffs (from trinket etc) apply to the 2-pc Tier 9 bonus (when our SrS ticks can be critical)?

The difference can be quite simple to understand: %damage increasing buffs, relative numbers, (such as the 4 bosses mentioned, and TotT) will remain active for the Serpent Sting (again, try it out yourself, setup your addons in such a way so you can easily monitor the Serpent Sting ticks, both in- and outside Shadowcrashes/Rune Circles).

However, AP buffs (absolute numbers) are no longer retained throughout the fight (got fixed in patch 3.0.8, before that it was worthwhile for MM hunters to have an 'AP on use' effect trinket, such as Loatheb's Shadow or the hit trinket from final boss Nexus heroic.)

About the 2T9 bonus being affected by temporary crit buffs at the time of application; unknown as of yet, we will have to test that. What i can tell you though is 2T9 bonus will not affect Chimera-Serpent, since it will be impossible for Chimera to estimate how many of your Serpent Sting ticks will/would crit.

I find that if you apply Viper Sting RIGHT AFTER a Chimera shot then use steady shots until Chimera is up again and THEN use Chimera shot (with Viper Sting still on the target) will pretty much fill up the majority of your mana pool.

You need 523 ArPen with Runstone, ~619 with Grim Toll and over 700 (maybe someone can provide the exact calculation) with any ArPen trinket. Also, did you remove Arcane Shot from the rotation on the spreadsheet?