The spreadsheet shows a very small damage increase when prioritizing aimed/chimera over kill shot. However, with part of the former two shots' damage coming from an 8 second dot on crit I would question whether it wouldn't be better to prioritize kill shot if the sub 20% range is not expected to take long. Basically, kill shot has all of its damage up front so you don't risk "losing" some big piercing shots ticks. Similarly, I also tend to toss in arcane shots very late in the fight (or on short lived adds) if it looks like there won't be enough time to get much out of a steady shot crit's bleed.
The spreadsheet shows a very small damage increase when prioritizing aimed/chimera over kill shot. However, with part of the former two shots' damage coming from an 8 second dot on crit I would question whether it wouldn't be better to prioritize kill shot if the sub 20% range is not expected to take long. Basically, kill shot has all of its damage up front so you don't risk "losing" some big piercing shots ticks. Similarly, I also tend to toss in arcane shots very late in the fight (or on short lived adds) if it looks like there won't be enough time to get much out of a steady shot crit's bleed.
The prioritization of aimed/chimera over kill shot I referenced was meant for boss fights where the sub-20% duration is more than a few seconds. The bleed from each PS proc only lasts 8 seconds. For most boss fights, the majority of PS procs will bleed to end, with the exception being the last few at the end of the fight.
Now for trash and low HP adds, I agree that the approach should be different. You should use Kill Shot as soon as you can and at higher priority. Considering how fast the last 20% go down on these, there really isn't much time for a "rotation" sub 20%. In most cases, you will only be able to get off a single Kill Shot.
As you suggest, I also use Arcane Shot from time to time instead of a Steady Shot when the target is close to dieing for similar reasons. In addition when killing multiple adds, I prefer when possible for my final shot to be an instant cast so that I can use the GCD to switch targets instead of having to switch after the cast of a Steady Shot.
Hey i was just looking over some MM related threads and i gathered that the best rotation (with imp ArS) is
SeS->CS->AS->ArS-> SSx3->CS
However, when i tested the rotation on the dummies i got around a 100 dps increase from using
SeS->CS->SS->AS->SS->ArS->SS->CS
Did i get it wrong when i looked over the forums and concluded that the first one is the best rotation? Or am i doing something wrong when i test the first rotation?
Hey i was just looking over some MM related threads and i gathered that the best rotation (with imp ArS) is
SeS->CS->AS->ArS-> SSx3->CS
However, when i tested the rotation on the dummies i got around a 100 dps increase from using
SeS->CS->SS->AS->SS->ArS->SS->CS
Did i get it wrong when i looked over the forums and concluded that the first one is the best rotation? Or am i doing something wrong when i test the first rotation?
Without knowing exactly how you performed your tests, my theory for the difference is simply RNG in a small sample size. If you did not perform a very large number of shots under consistent conditions, then you cannot really rely on the results you get from a relatively small sample size.
Assuming exact same conditions in both tests and equal RNG, then except for the affects of ISS and PS bleeds, then two rotations are pretty much identical in that you are performing the same number of shots and the exact same shots, just in a different order. The effect of the order only has two affects from what I can think. These are:
1) If you had multiple ISS procs in a single rotation, you could use it twice with the second and only once with the first. However, on the other hand you would be using some of the procs on ArS instead of AS or CS on some of the rotation cycles with only a single proc, resulting in a DPS loss. It is hard to say without a lot of analysis on which rotation works best with ISS over a long fight.
2) In the first, you perform AS a little earlier, hence, its bleed starts sooner if its crits. On the other hand, you move the shot with no bleed, ArS, to two shots later in the second rotation, essentially allowing one of the SSs to start bleeding sooner. I believe that this trade off favors the first rotation.
Another factor concerning the two rotations is which is easier to actually implement in game. Personally, I think the first is easier to implement. With the first, you are only have 4 button/key moves to implement with the 4 shots with staying on the same button/key for 3 shots in a row. With the second you have 6 button/key moves with never staying on the same on for consecutive attacks. The two extra button/key moves can result in worse reaction times. It is also easier to keep on your rotation while on the move with the first. You have a full period of 3 instant shots you can cast during a movement period, although with the second you can still use consecutively the instants you have available when moving then getting back on your rotation later.
I assume that the discussion taking place is with regard to 150ms latency... For my own purposes I haven't found a better glyph combination of Aimed, Chimera, Serpent with my constant 50ms latency.
I also use SerS, AiS and CS glyphs, even with a +/- 150ms latency. Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer's spreadsheet I currently use show them above any other for my gear by about a hundred dps over any other combo, and though I didn't undergo any exhaustive dummy testing the dps result in raid is quite good.
This combination allows a CS-AiS-SS*3 (or AiS-CS-SS*3 as it seems to be slightly better - not tested yet) Which is better on heavy movement fights than a CS-AiS-SS*4 due to the highest use of instant shots.
The downside of it is that multishot fights require you to switch glyphs, but there is not a lot of them, and actually none in TotC so this isn't really a problem (and 6 gold is not that expensive).
Assuming exact same conditions in both tests and equal RNG, then except for the affects of ISS and PS bleeds, then two rotations are pretty much identical in that you are performing the same number of shots and the exact same shots, just in a different order. The effect of the order only has two affects from what I can think. These are: ......
Another Arcane-build MM priority rotation which seems viable is SrS>CS>ArS>AiS>SS, essentially prioritizing ArS over AiS except during ISS proc. At first, it seems inferior to the traditional SrS>CS>AiS>ArS>SS, because Aimed is always a harder-hitting shot than Arcane, and also the Piercing Shot bleed proc from Aimed is delayed. However, with the traditional rotation, I found out that when ArS comes out of its 6-second CD, CS cooldown will also be finished.
Basically : with traditional rotation system, at the 9th second counting from the first CS is fired, ArS will finish its CD; while CS is just 1-second away from finishing up its CD. Consensus-wise, it is generally better to wait up that 1 second to fire CS immediately afterwards rather than firing off an ArS, for obvious reasons. However, this rotation essentially treats ArS as if it has a 10-second CD (it will always be fired after a CS followed by an AiS).
In the alternative priority rotation given above, ArS will be fired much more often. The drawback that might be posed is that lots of the ISS proc in alternative proc will have to be spent on ArS or AiS, while the traditional rotation almost ensures that ISS proc will be spent on a CS. Personal testing on dummies doesn't seem to yield a very definitive result, but the traditional rotation system seems to favor shorter fights, while alternative rotation seems to favor longer fights where the sheer amount of additional ArS fired overtake the loss of ISS proc bonus used on shots other than CS.
Anyone else might have a wider experience or testing on this issue?
Another Arcane-build MM priority rotation which seems viable is SrS>CS>ArS>AiS>SS, essentially prioritizing ArS over AiS except during ISS proc. At first, it seems inferior to the traditional SrS>CS>AiS>ArS>SS, because Aimed is always a harder-hitting shot than Arcane, and also the Piercing Shot bleed proc from Aimed is delayed. However, with the traditional rotation, I found out that when ArS comes out of its 6-second CD, CS cooldown will also be finished.
Basically : with traditional rotation system, at the 9th second counting from the first CS is fired, ArS will finish its CD; while CS is just 1-second away from finishing up its CD. Consensus-wise, it is generally better to wait up that 1 second to fire CS immediately afterwards rather than firing off an ArS, for obvious reasons. However, this rotation essentially treats ArS as if it has a 10-second CD (it will always be fired after a CS followed by an AiS).
In the alternative priority rotation given above, ArS will be fired much more often. The drawback that might be posed is that lots of the ISS proc in alternative proc will have to be spent on ArS or AiS, while the traditional rotation almost ensures that ISS proc will be spent on a CS. Personal testing on dummies doesn't seem to yield a very definitive result, but the traditional rotation system seems to favor shorter fights, while alternative rotation seems to favor longer fights where the sheer amount of additional ArS fired overtake the loss of ISS proc bonus used on shots other than CS.
Anyone else might have a wider experience or testing on this issue?
You should look at the issue from another perspective. You were hitting close to home when you said that ArS effectively has a 10s CD with the "traditional" shot priority.
When I first started as MM, I had to include ArS for the lack of ArP on my gear. It didn't take me long to figure out that Ars should come in between CS and AiS. The way I see it, the priority isn't so much about having harder shots hit first as limiting the number of gcds you have to resort to using steady shot. With CS->AiS->ArS, it was very obvious that I had to use more steady shots than I need, precisely due to concurrent CDs.
Looking at the PTR Patch notes made me think about something...
Trying to theorycraft how much would the new Wolverine Bite affect Cunning pets:
Wolverine Bite: This talent is now enabled when the pet lands a critical strike rather than from the target dodging the pet’s attacks. In addition, this talent no longer has a prerequisite.
Cunning Pets would bring Roar of Recovery which might be good for Ice Crown Citadel raiding.
The downside would be the loss of Rabid / Furious Howl / Call of the Wild
Numbercrunchers should try to find out ASAP how much loos / gain of dps it would be to give up the Ferocity Pet for a Cunning one.
What would be the trend of loss from the AtkP bonus for MM Hunters, would the new Wolverine Bite along with all the Cunning pet talents be worth the loss of such buffs?
If indeed Cunning Pets would be superior to a Wolf on the next content patch which would be the pet of choice ?
Dragonhawk, Wind Serpent, Sporebat, Snake ?
My bet goes to Dragonhawk, I have heard about Wind Serpent loosing DPS time trying to get to minimum Lightning Breath range and stop attacking in melee for a bit.
I have been running MM for quite a while (with some SV mixed in), and have been using some flavor of the 7/57/7 standard build, varying as needed to compensate for hit gear. I don't gem for ArPen, but have around 635 passive plus the Mjolnir trinket. My rotation is KS>Chim>Aimed>Steady; I do throw occassional Arcanes out when moving if other instants are on CD, but they are not part of core rotation.
In respeccing last night to account for some gear changes, I really started thinking hard about whether the 2 points in survival instincts is really worth it. My unbuffed crit is already really high (>50%), and getting the extra 4% crit chance for my Steady Shot just didn't seem worth it. As a result, I put the 2 points in improved hunters mark, figuring the extra 100 AP would not only help me but the entire raid (usually 5-6 dps that benefit). The damage mitigation part is is nice, but trivial with the high-end raid heals I run with. Thus, I wound up with a 7/59/5 build.
I have been running MM for quite a while (with some SV mixed in), and have been using some flavor of the 7/57/7 standard build, varying as needed to compensate for hit gear. I don't gem for ArPen, but have around 635 passive plus the Mjolnir trinket. My rotation is KS>Chim>Aimed>Steady; I do throw occassional Arcanes out when moving if other instants are on CD, but they are not part of core rotation.
In respeccing last night to account for some gear changes, I really started thinking hard about whether the 2 points in survival instincts is really worth it. My unbuffed crit is already really high (>50%), and getting the extra 4% crit chance for my Steady Shot just didn't seem worth it. As a result, I put the 2 points in improved hunters mark, figuring the extra 100 AP would not only help me but the entire raid (usually 5-6 dps that benefit). The damage mitigation part is is nice, but trivial with the high-end raid heals I run with. Thus, I wound up with a 7/59/5 build.
Thoughts?
AP bonus from Hunters Mark counts only towards the hunters in the raid.
It appears to me that the ArP cutoff for when Aimed is better than Chimera is rather low.
I have 388 ArP at the moment, not a massive amount, in fact I have stayed with the Agi build since I mainly raid as Survival (but on favourable bosses I switch to MM). It is in fact so low that the loss of me speccing back into Arcane Shot is a measly 10 DPS or so.
Yet I go from 8717 DPS to 8730 DPS by going from a rotation of Chim -> Kill -> Aimed to Aimed -> Chim -> Kill, with 8721 DPS for both Kill -> Aimed -> Chim and Aimed -> Kill -> Chim. And I don't have TSA or the glyph (we have a very consistent uptime for the 10% AP buff and the sheet shows changing from RR to TSA and changing the Kill Shot glyph to TSA is a pretty solid loss).
So because I'm the only MM Hunter when I am, I am stuck providing IHM (personal boost in that case anyway). And sets me in a funny situation where Aimed is still better than Chimera but not so great that I can actually spec out of IHM for TSA and the glyph (which is a loss even over Hawk and 2/3 IHM + TSA). I'm at the proverbial crossroad where gear in one or the other direction will form my path.
Last edited by KraxisSingular : 10/09/09 at 8:43 AM.
Yet I go from 8717 DPS to 8730 DPS by going from a rotation of Chim -> Kill -> Aimed to Aimed -> Chim -> Kill, with 8721 DPS for both Kill -> Aimed -> Chim and Aimed -> Kill -> Chim. And I don't have TSA or the glyph (we have a very consistent uptime for the 10% AP buff and the sheet shows changing from RR to TSA and changing the Kill Shot glyph to TSA is a pretty solid loss).
In the last case, I wouldn't move a point from RR into TSA, but one point from ISS. It's still a solid loss on paper, but a practical move nonetheless. As good as your Abom Might or Unleashed Rage uptime may be, if the players who provide those buffs die, you have nothing to fall back on. For the low cost of 1 talent point, that is well worth it. There have also been times where we have had neither a DK or an enhancement shaman in our raids. And it's also the best version of the buff since it's an aura.
I also see that you are using Glyph of the Hawk. That would be the glyph I switch out for TSA. Like ISS its worth declines with movement.
AP bonus from Hunters Mark counts only towards the hunters in the raid.
Good point. We have 3 hunters in the raid. So is 100 AP bonus for 3 ranged dps > 4% increased crit of 15-20% of total damage on one hunter's dps? I still think probably so, but am interested in further thoughts on this.
You can answer that question for yourself via the spreadsheet, as well as your original question on whether the 4% crit was worth it just for you, so I'm not sure what in the way of "thoughts" you're looking for. Try it out and see.
In the last case, I wouldn't move a point from RR into TSA, but one point from ISS. It's still a solid loss on paper, but a practical move nonetheless. As good as your Abom Might or Unleashed Rage uptime may be, if the players who provide those buffs die, you have nothing to fall back on. For the low cost of 1 talent point, that is well worth it. There have also been times where we have had neither a DK or an enhancement shaman in our raids. And it's also the best version of the buff since it's an aura.
I also see that you are using Glyph of the Hawk. That would be the glyph I switch out for TSA. Like ISS its worth declines with movement.
As noted I only use my MM spec on fight where it really shines, where I can stand still more than other fights. You can say I use it in mostly Spreadsheet fights. I have found that I can maintain my DPS much better as Survival on high mobility fights. Where on low mobility I can get comparably close to my spreadsheet value as MM.
Given that we mostly have around 3-4 10% AP people in the raid TSA only becomes valuable if the raid is in dire straits.
Anyway, the point wasn't so important about the DPS itself, more that even at a fairly low ArP level Aimed wins out over Chimera without TSA and the glyph.
Anyway, the point wasn't so important about the DPS itself, more that even at a fairly low ArP level Aimed wins out over Chimera without TSA and the glyph.
Just for giggles, I hand adjusted my ArP down to zero, and compared the rotations again. Aimed priority was still ahead by .08 dps without Glyph of TSA. Of course that 12% crit from Imp. Barrage still helps quite a bit!
You can answer that question for yourself via the spreadsheet, as well as your original question on whether the 4% crit was worth it just for you, so I'm not sure what in the way of "thoughts" you're looking for. Try it out and see.
Spreadsheet only models individual dps. My larger point is that it seems as if individual talents can be over-represented in "cookies cutter" builds versus talents that support the raid. I realize what the spreadsheet shows for individual dps. I was hoping for a more thoughtful response than "use the spreadsheet".
I have been using some flavor of the 7/57/7 standard build, varying as needed to compensate for hit gear. I don't gem for ArPen, but have around 635 passive plus the Mjolnir trinket. My rotation is KS>Chim>Aimed>Steady; I do throw occassional Arcanes out when moving if other instants are on CD, but they are not part of core rotation.
I really started thinking hard about whether the 2 points in survival instincts is really worth it. My unbuffed crit is already really high (>50%), and getting the extra 4% crit chance for my Steady Shot just didn't seem worth it. As a result, I put the 2 points in improved hunters mark, figuring the extra 100 AP would not only help me but the entire raid (usually 5-6 dps that benefit). The damage mitigation part is is nice, but trivial with the high-end raid heals I run with.
Thoughts?
I had originally planned to provide this in a private message but decided to post here since it may have relevance for others with similar questions.
In regards to your question about Survival Instincts, it is still a better talent choice than putting it in other options after the 56th point in MM. The 4% crit for SS and ArS when you use it is very beneficial.
Now do not get me wrong, I still think you need points in IHM too for your benefit as well as the benefit of other hunters in your raid. According to the spreadsheet, here is the current DPS value of each point in the following talents with using a 7/60/7 spec. The additional 3 points is used so that there will be a consistent talent base when removing points from talent being analyzed.
SI: 37
IHM: 32 (+ benefit to other hunters in raid)
IB: 31
ISS: 19
As you can see, SI is more valuable for you personally in the ideal fight than any of the other 3 options. In addition. it still applies in movement situations where you sub in a ArS for an SS, but its benefit is reduced. It has no benefit in AoE situations.
IHM is the next important for you personally, but is even more important for the overall raid DPS increase, altough the benefit only applies to marked targets.
IB is a close third with its value increased by being applicable in all situations - both standstill and movement fights as well as in AoE situations.
ISS is a distant last with its benefit being reduced by not being applicable during AoE situations and being less applicable while moving as compared to the other 3.
Thus, the clear choice to me, which is how I am personally specced when need no points in FA is a 7/57/7 build with 3/3 IHM, 3/3 IB, and 1 or 2 points in ISS depending on whether u have a second point in RR or not. When need FA points, I pull from ISS first, then one from IB, then the last from either IB or IHM. Alternatively, you could pull from SI instead of IHM/IB.
The spreadsheet shows this change as a 48 DPS increase for you in a standstill fight. In movement fights, I believe that the benefit will be even higher since the value of your current 3/3 ISS is reduced more than the other options.
I would also suggest switching to the TSA glyph instead of Hawk. It shows up as a 6 DPS increase in the ideal fight, but it is even a greater increase in movement fights.
With how much crit is value to MM with our large crit damage modifiers (including PS), its synergy with ArP, and the regen of focus for our pet, we really cannot have too much crit in most situations.
Spreadsheet only models individual dps. My larger point is that it seems as if individual talents can be over-represented in "cookies cutter" builds versus talents that support the raid. I realize what the spreadsheet shows for individual dps. I was hoping for a more thoughtful response than "use the spreadsheet".
The spreadsheet models individual DPS for hunters. Everyone affected in the raid is a hunter. There is no non-additive interaction between the hunters in the raid with respect to these two talents. "Use the spreadsheet" is still the best answer you can get - it models both choices very accurately if you use it properly (i.e. checking raid benefit for choices that affect the raid). The only caveat is the usual one about steady shot talents being overvalued on movement fights, but I don't think you or anyone else needs that pointed out.
Recently, I noticed that TSA glyph has been a popular choice, even moreso than the Steady Shot/Hawk glyph, eespecially with movement-heavy fights. Is this merely caused by the Steady Shot glyph bug, and not due to inherent power of TSA glyph itself?
Also, I read somewhere that the bug causing Abom and UR overwriting our TSA has been fixed, but how about another hunter's TSA? Will it overwrite our TSA if they casted it first pre-encounter? Because if it does, then the tSA glyph, specifying that in only works for individual hunter's TSA, won't work.
Also, I read somewhere that the bug causing Abom and UR overwriting our TSA has been fixed, but how about another hunter's TSA? Will it overwrite our TSA if they casted it first pre-encounter? Because if it does, then the tSA glyph, specifying that in only works for individual hunter's TSA, won't work.
i was curious about this as well. does anyone know for sure?
I honestly have a hard time believing aimed shot prioritized over chimera shot is a dps increase.
For those who -are- seeing an increase - what is your expected aimed shot damage in the spreadsheet vs chimera shot damage? (the first number includes chimera shot - serpent, so just use the crit/noncrit numbers on the right side on the shot rotation tab.)
For me, I'm seeing that Chimera shot is doing nearly 40% more damage than aimed shot, and no amount of additional crit or armor pen on aimed will make using it ahead of chimera to grab the imp ss proc a dps increase.
I realize I'm only sitting at the low 500s in armor pen, but do higher numbers really skew the results that much? I remain unconvinced that aimed shot is -truly- doing more damage.
I honestly have a hard time believing aimed shot prioritized over chimera shot is a dps increase.
For those who -are- seeing an increase - what is your expected aimed shot damage in the spreadsheet vs chimera shot damage? (the first number includes chimera shot - serpent, so just use the crit/noncrit numbers on the right side on the shot rotation tab.)
For me, I'm seeing that Chimera shot is doing nearly 40% more damage than aimed shot, and no amount of additional crit or armor pen on aimed will make using it ahead of chimera to grab the imp ss proc a dps increase.
I realize I'm only sitting at the low 500s in armor pen, but do higher numbers really skew the results that much? I remain unconvinced that aimed shot is -truly- doing more damage.
Just remove any points from ISS and look at your Calculations Tab. My Aimed Shot has a "Total Modified Damage" of 11361,8 (K86) and my Chimera Shot has a "Chimera Shot Damage" of 10984,3 (H147).
10/05/09, 10:53 AM
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