I'm putting together a simplified hunter guide for my guild including shot rotations. Marks isn't exactly my specialty, and I've been trying to figure out if its best to use Chimera every cooldown or only to refresh Serpent Sting? Players in this thread seem to be using it both ways.
Chimera Shot should be used on every CD, never wait. Chimera can hit for upwards of 10k when you combine the shot and proc. No reason to be waiting as its not like you're losing anything by firing it asap.
I didn't see this mentioned, but with the change to Imp Tracking Chimera got a backdoor buff. The sting portion will now do 5% more damage, which is no mean thing. On top of that the new Serpent glyph adding yet another tick.
So if we assume an unglyphed untalented CS serpent potion pre-patch, it would do '40' damage. Now it would do 58.8. That's a pretty nice boost of 47% (talented stings should be quite even in proportion)... right?
Perhaps this is Blizzard's way of compensating MM a bit for the Steady nerf?
Chimera Shot should be used on every CD, never wait. Chimera can hit for upwards of 10k when you combine the shot and proc. No reason to be waiting as its not like you're losing anything by firing it asap.
Why then is the serpent sting glyph good for marks? do you get the benefit of the extra ticks even though you are cutting them off, or was everyone else wrong when they said that it was good?
Why then is the serpent sting glyph good for marks? do you get the benefit of the extra ticks even though you are cutting them off, or was everyone else wrong when they said that it was good?
The Chimera Shot - Serpent portion of the shot does damage equal to 40% of the total damage done by your Serpent Sting. The Serpent Sting glyph adds a tick of damage (and will add two ticks in 3.0.8), in effect granting +20% sting damage, and upping your Chimera Shot - Serpent damage by (0.2)(0.4) = 8%.
Why then is the serpent sting glyph good for marks? do you get the benefit of the extra ticks even though you are cutting them off, or was everyone else wrong when they said that it was good?
The original debate was, or part of, was involving first, SS Glyph with itself. SS Glyph increases damage of the entire sting by adding an extra full tick. NOT by adding a tick and lowering damage per tick. (Your spellbook tooltip in this regard may be inaccurate IIRC.)
The second part involves CS doing full serpent damage regardless of whether the sting has ticked 1, 5 or a million times. The CS will always calculate based on full potential damage of the SS.
That is why SS Glyph works for marks. Longer SS doing more damage is moot in and of itself since it is passively being refreshed via CS. SS doing more damage per "cast" means bigger CS's, period.
The Chimera Shot - Serpent portion of the shot does damage equal to 40% of the total damage done by your Serpent Sting. The Serpent Sting glyph adds a tick of damage (and will add two ticks in 3.0.8), in effect granting +20% sting damage, and upping your Chimera Shot - Serpent damage by (0.2)(0.4) = 8%.
That's an odd calculation. CS Serpent is 40% of Serpent Sting. If you increase Serpent Sting by 20%, then you increase CS Serpent by 20%. Serpent Sting use to do 100 damage, now it would do 120. 40% of 120 is 48. Now your CS Serpent does 48 rather than 40, 20% increase. True it is 8% of Serpent Sting but I don't see how that relates to CS more than CS Serpent does.
I have a suspicion that the haste soft cap (5XX, can't remember) is too much haste for most of us. As we all know, haste will give the largest dps increase of any stat(assuming hit cap) until a 1.5 second SS is reached, and beyond that its value drops off significantly.
right now, I'm rolling with 456 haste, and in the past couple raids I've used the food buff to get to 496, and I've been noticing that that my steady shot is almost always under 1.5 seconds(more like 1.4), due to additional haste effects (heroism, rapid fire, Imp AotH).
Almost all of us (MM spec) have at least 5/5 imp AotH in BM, and I think that stacking haste to get a steady shot speed of 1.5 seconds while under the effects of imp AotH(or at least much closer to it) and then stacking other stats(agi, AP, whatever) will give more of a dps increase than stacking haste to get a static 1.5 second SS.
Even if you don't spec for rapid killing, in a 25 man, you should have a heroism and rapid fire every 5 min period. thats a total of 58 seconds during which time that excess haste is a dps loss in favor of other stats. combined with the up time of imp AotH,(which theoretically could be 100%), I suspect that we are spending so little time in a non-(proc'd)hasted status that stacking it all the way to the soft cap is going to result in a dps loss on average over a 5 min period. (I think 5 min is a good period to use, as most boss fights are close to this, and it allows one to measure from one heroism->rapid fire(untalented) to the next).
However, we have to consider that there will always be times when no extra haste is in effect, and during those times any less than the soft cap will be dps loss of the average. My theory is that the best amount of haste to use is not a specific value, but rather a range (I'm guessing around 400 with 5/5 Imp AotH) where with no extra haste SS is a little above 1.5 seconds, and with Imp AotH its a little below. Think of a parabola but with a flat top, where peak dps could be anywhere in a certain range.
I'm planning to spend a lot of time testing this theory this this weekend, however if anyone has any info supporting or contradicting I'm all ears.
PS: if anyone knows what a good rule of thumbs for the average up time of Imp AotH is (in %) I would appreciate it.
^^ To the question at the end of the above poster.
Without consideration of other haste effects (because this actually becomes complicated with the multiplicative nature of different sources of haste), the average IAotH up time is easy to calculate:
EDIT: I realized a massive explanation of the calculation is not necessary, but in case you're curious, just PM me.
Here's a table with predone results. THIS ASSUMES NO ASPECT OF THE HAWK GLYPH, NO OTHER HASTE EFFECTS, AND ESTIMATES BASED ON NOT CLIPPING THE LAST SHOT OF IAOTH. But basically, as you can see, as your weapon speed goes up the uptime scales well early on. There's obviously a point where the second derivative hits 0 and begins to go negative, but that's at really, really frigging fast base bow speeds.
Weapon Speed
IAotH Uptime
3.0
0.181490651487
2.5
0.252391004581
2.0
0.364840777906
1.5
0.541689336048
Hope this helps.
Edit: Also, remember that this does not take into account using Rapid Fire or other haste effects, so actually your expected uptime is higher by possibly 10% or more depending on raid composition, :\ Really, unfortunately, the truth is, unless you do all the math for what you have in your raid at the time (which as I said is complicated because different sources of haste are multiplicative, while sources of haste that stack are additive), the best way to calculate the average uptime is to use something like recount to determine it for you over a long fight.
After looking at how to test this a little more thorough method will be required. Theoretical up times of haste, given possible overlaps, hot and cold steaks, any number of random occurrences, I don't believe there is a good method to calculate the time spent under extra haste effects.
Like Discomonger suggests, a mod that show the time spent in added haste procs would be necessary, how ever I think in order to even make that work (and be reliable data) what is needed is to find out what the number of steady shots that were cast at any/all given speeds. The result of this would show at what speed the bulk of steadys are being cast at, and by going to raids we could fine tune the amount of haste until a peak where enough time is spent in sub 1.5 steadys to make stacking other stats a dps increase on average.
I don't know of any mod that can do this though. I tried recount and if the data needed for this is there I can't find it. I'm going to try to test this on some test dummies this weekend, dragging some guildies along to help, but if anyone knows a better way I'd love to hear it.
This is my first post here and i wanted 2 start with a few remarks and questions. So here goes nothing
First of all THIS is my curent spec and I'll probably still use it after the patch hits. The reason is that UF will be a talent that is going 2 be hit hard in the next patch imo ... after all the pet was doing 23% out of the overall dmg but that is due 2 the fact that that dots scale like crazy ... now after this patch i think the pet will do a lot less dmg so the overall value of the UF talent is a lot lower now.
My problem atm is that i have no clue how the changes for arcane shot will work, will the dmg be the same, (in this case it will still be doing less dmg then ss and it will waste part of the ImpSS proc if you use it on CD - so no point in useing it) or will the dmg be adjusted ?
As for the ss nerf that isn't rly going 2 affect us, as i hope the SS glyph will be fixed by then so actually we will be gaining a bit of dmg on this shot not losing any. All in all i think our dps will be about the same with all the changes (100-200 dps less maybe)
If any1 sees any flaws with my current spec all feedback wold be appreciated.
Now i have a question that was bugging me for some time now: what actually happens 2 the Serpent sting while we go 2 viper for mana regen ?.... will firing chimera shot while in viper make the dot do half the dmg of does the dot remain the same and only the instant part will do half the dmg ?.... i find it rly annoying 2 do "aspect dancing" every 10 sec just 2 refresh the dot.
So this has been bothering me for a while. What is the point of putting points in RK when you're taking Readiness as an MM hunter?
RK brings the CD on RF down to 3 mins But the CD on Readiness is already 3 min. So, you say, that means I can theortectially get an extra RF in before the Readiness CD completes if I hit Readiness straight after RF. True but the CDs will so overlap that I will effectively waste that RF or it will just lag the availability of the next RF if I wait to repeat Readiness until the RF buff has gone. RK just seems a waste of points in any build with Readiness in it.
So this has been bothering me for a while. What is the point of putting points in RK when you're taking Readiness as an MM hunter?
RK brings the CD on RF down to 3 mins But the CD on Readiness is already 3 min. So, you say, that means I can theortectially get an extra RF in before the Readiness CD completes if I hit Readiness straight after RF. True but the CDs will so overlap that I will effectively waste that RF or it will just lag the availability of the next RF if I wait to repeat Readiness until the RF buff has gone. RK just seems a waste of points in any build with Readiness in it.
What am I missing?
What's not to understand about it? Instead of using two RFs in rapid succession and then one 3 minutes later, you use it twice every time.
0:00.0 Hit RF
0:01.5 Hit Readiness
0:15.0 RF wears off, hit RF again
0:30.0 RF wears off
3:01.5 Readiness cools down
3:30.0 RF cools down, hit RF
3:31.5 Hit Readiness
3:45.0 RF wears off, hit RF again
4:00.0 RF wears off
That's four RFs in four minutes exactly with 25% up time. If you didn't have RK:
0:00.0 Hit RF
0:01.5 Hit Readiness
0:15.0 RF wears off, hit RF again
0:30.0 RF wears off
3:01.5 Readiness cools down, hit Readiness again
3:03.0 Hit RF
3:18.0 RF wears off
6:01.5 Readiness cools down, hit Readiness again
6:03.0 Hit RF
6:18.0 RF wears off
That's four RFs in over six minutes with 15.8% up time. Your Rapid Fire up time goes up by 5.4% per talent point.
The Chimera Shot - Serpent portion of the shot does damage equal to 40% of the total damage done by your Serpent Sting. The Serpent Sting glyph adds a tick of damage (and will add two ticks in 3.0.8), in effect granting +20% sting damage, and upping your Chimera Shot - Serpent damage by (0.2)(0.4) = 8%.
I have been debating this next point but haven't been able to join the PTR and I am BW/Readiness build atm.
Giving the addition of the Serpent Sting Glyph being 6sec adding 2 ticks and improving the Chimera Shot overall dmg got me thinking the following:
I tought way back at rolling ignites of mages and read Chimera Shot where it says it refreshes the sting and deals 40% dmg.
Since Serpent Sting is affected by RAP, being Marks and having a Ferocity Pet would allow for an extra 20% RAP with CotW, then if we could count Mirror of Truth procing early at the fight +1000 AtkP and Loatheb's Shadow use for 680 AtkP.
Having all those buffs one could Serpent Sting and FD change trinkets into lets say a more suitable DPS trinkets Fury of the Five Flights and Bandit's Insignia and if we kept on doing the 10sec Chimera Shot that Serpent Sting shouldn't fall off with it's 21 sec timer.
The next question is: After switching trinkets, would the Serpent Sting applied still be considered with the CotW + Trinkets?
If so that would mean Chimera Shot would be also affected with the "buffed" Serpent Sting throught the encounter.
I couldn't find any information on this, insight is welcomed.
...Having all those buffs one could Serpent Sting and FD change trinkets into lets say a more suitable DPS trinkets...
The next question is: After switching trinkets, would the Serpent Sting applied still be considered with the CotW + Trinkets?
If so that would mean Chimera Shot would be also affected with the "buffed" Serpent Sting throught the encounter.
I couldn't find any information on this, insight is welcomed.
FD doesn't allow you to change gear on boss fights since early TBC.
However, if you serpent sting while your AP trinket procs are up (for example Mirror + Loatheb's shadow for an extra ~1750rap) the resulting serpent sting will indeed be refreshed continuously, as will the higher damage chimera shots.
FD doesn't allow you to change gear on boss fights since early TBC.
Call it the TrinketMenu nerf if you will. Good change too. I think one option still exists, which would be a pre-pull trinket swap. In otherwords, queue up a spare "use" trinket, use it a few seconds before the pull and have an auto-swap to your normal proc trinket configured (TrinketMenu or a macro could do this nicely).
What I'm not clear on is if a proc trinket's internal cooldown occurs only after a proc, or on equip too; if it happens on equip, then this idea is moot, otherwise it could be a slight dps boost.
Call it the TrinketMenu nerf if you will. Good change too. I think one option still exists, which would be a pre-pull trinket swap. In otherwords, queue up a spare "use" trinket, use it a few seconds before the pull and have an auto-swap to your normal proc trinket configured (TrinketMenu or a macro could do this nicely).
What I'm not clear on is if a proc trinket's internal cooldown occurs only after a proc, or on equip too; if it happens on equip, then this idea is moot, otherwise it could be a slight dps boost.
I'd have to double check but I was under the impression that all temporary buffs now automatically vanish if the item providing them is unequipped.
My big question is: Is Agility still the big go-to attribute for Marks Spec'd Hunters?
I mean with all these changes coming about and with the inclusions of "Hit Rating", "Haste" and other attributes by way of equipment, enchants and glyphs, is agility a thing of the past?
I have a Dwarf Hunter and I'm trying to get the most dps out of him with the gear I have but having talked to other hunters, a few say Attack Power is the way to go and others say concentrate on Hit Rating.
My big question is: Is Agility still the big go-to attribute for Marks Spec'd Hunters?
I mean with all these changes coming about and with the inclusions of "Hit Rating", "Haste" and other attributes by way of equipment, enchants and glyphs, is agility a thing of the past?
I have a Dwarf Hunter and I'm trying to get the most dps out of him with the gear I have but having talked to other hunters, a few say Attack Power is the way to go and others say concentrate on Hit Rating.
Our most important stat until capped is Hit. There's no use stacking a ton of other stats if your missing a lot of your shots.
From what I've read here MM can use either Agi or AP. BM gains the most from AP because the pet gains from your AP and SV gains the most from Agi due to talents.
With MM having both an Agi talent (Combat Experience) and AP talent (Trueshot Aura), either works. I think what someone said was that if you lean BM (spec bm for pvp or anything else) use AP and if you lean SV use Agi. But i believe AP is the better stat at the moment if you plan to stay MM and don't care about the other spec's.
In the end, you want to max out your Hit Rating (or get very close) then AP/Agi, Int, Crit, and Haste if your MM/SV until your Steady Shot is down to 1.5s. (BM doesn't need any haste to bring Steady down to 1.5)
Hit is not important because it allows you not to miss, hit is important because it costs very little on the item budget. The function of the stat is sort of irrelevant, crit could be the new go to stat if it cost half of what it did today for example. Your best bet is to download the spreadsheet and use it to evaluate items. As a rule of thumb though, items with +hit on them are very good if you are not capped. Some ilvl 200 blues with hit on them can compete with ilvl 213 purples without hit on them, if you are not hitcapped.
AP is still better for MM, at least according to the spreadsheet.
Agi comes out slightly ahead of AP for my gear and MM spec, just fyi. At least, after the nerfs and such. So it's worth downloading the sheet and using it for your own gear setup and tweaking accordingly.
Before I geared up at all AP was better as Marks. As I started to gear up they became nearly equal. As of now at high end gear for the moment, Agility is 3% better than AP as Marks.
The comment that Marks has an +AP talent is irrelevant since it is a raid Buff you should always be getting from somewhere. Combat Experience may be what gives MM the agility nod though.
If you have plans of ever moving out of old BC and blue quest items and you know you don't want to dabble in BM, save yourself the trouble and go with AGI from the start.
While doing my Serpent Sting Monitor addon research I've come across an interesting little factoid:
Despite what the tooltip says, Serpent Sting ticks _already_ get influenced by Improved Tracking. Same goes for Volley ticks it seems. Try it out on any random mob near you
Guess this is important both for the pre-patch version of the spreadsheet, as well as an indication that the upcoming "buff" to Impr. Tracking isn't really a buff after all :/
While doing my Serpent Sting Monitor addon research I've come across an interesting little factoid:
Despite what the tooltip says, Serpent Sting ticks _already_ get influenced by Improved Tracking. Same goes for Volley ticks it seems. Try it out on any random mob near you
Guess this is important both for the pre-patch version of the spreadsheet, as well as an indication that the upcoming "buff" to Impr. Tracking isn't really a buff after all :/
Did you actually test this, or is this just what some addon was telling you? If you've got some evidence you might want to move this on over to the spreadsheet discussion page. I'm curious enough to check it out when I get home either way.
I would not post here if I did not test this myself on actual mobs: I also make sure to switch off any addons that might interfere with my combat log. I did not test this with removing points out of Improved Tracking, then gradually adding points and comparing the damage difference when tracking or not however, which would be the final thing to check to make it definite. But the difference in numbers is exactly 4% and I have 4/5 Impr. Tracking right now.
00:25'18.656 Vitaropago gains Track Beasts.
00:25'21.484 Reanimated Crusader is afflicted by Serpent Sting.
00:25'24.812 Reanimated Crusader suffers 536 Nature damage from Vitaropago Serpent Sting.
00:25'31.671 Vitaropago gains Track Undead.
00:25'34.734 Reanimated Crusader is afflicted by Serpent Sting.
00:25'37.890 Reanimated Crusader suffers 557 Nature damage from Vitaropago Serpent Sting.
12/18/08, 12:40 PM
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