Snipehunter is only talking about SS damage I assume.

I tried to test it my self, 250 shots in each (marked dummie, SrS up) average SS damage :

With SS glyph
hit : 1293
crit : 3414

Without SS glyph
hit : 1260
crit : 2961

Should I take that as SS glyph not being bugged add crit number being way off some some reason or SS glyph working and hit numbers being way off ?

Those numbers a pretty much worthless as you give no indication of the weapon used - and so the variability of the damage from each shot - or whether SrS was up on the target. That said, those numbers suggest that the bug still exists as otherwise the gap between the two non-crit values should be much higher.

I should clarify, I meant a MM hunter with Glyph of SS will surely get the bonus damage effect regardless of whether he has Marked for Death or not. As far as I know the glyph effect is still incorporated into the talent.

It appears this latest maint period has fixed the Steady Shot Glyph bug.

Using the Screeching Bow, with no trinkets, no pet in AoTV without the glyph with HM on target dummy, and specced for MFD.

Avg Hit - 292
Avg Crit -701

Using the Screeching Bow, with no trinkets, no pet in AoTV with the Steady Shot glyph, HM on target dummy, serpent sting and specced for MFD.

Avg Hit - 320
Avg Crit - 771

Looks like that is our extra 10 percent.

I'm afraid your tests (as written) do not demonstrate that the glyph or talent has been 'fixed'. To do that, you would have needed to have applied serpent sting in your first test as well.

Why would I need to apply Serpent Sting in the first series of test? Having it appled will not effect the Steady Shot damage since nothing is counting on it for the extra damage. MFD works on Hunters Mark which is applied in the first test for the 10 percent extra damage. Serpent sting will add nothing to Steady Shot damage if I am not glyphed for it.

Test 2 I have both Serpent Sting and HM applied and it results in 10 percent more Steady Shot damage.

In addition to what Sky and Mako stated, in general, you really cannot do a test on a variable if the other variables are not constant. Hence, everything should be the same in the two tests, except for the variable being tested.

My mistake then. I retested and the bug still existed. Thanks for setting my testing straight and clarifying what the bug actually is. False alarm

This is a mathematical model which determines whether replacing Aimed Shot with Multi-shot is beneficial on the Twins fight, assuming the bosses are tanked close to each other.

Let d be the equalized damage of your AiS and MS after common talent modifiers, c your raid buffed crit chance in decimal form + 12% from imp barrage, and A and M the theoretical damage of AiS and MS respectively.

AiS further benefits from piercing shots (30% bleed on crit) and marked for death (10% crit dmg bonus) before glyph bonuses and ISS proc.

This gives to the following models,
(I'm using 1.378 as the crit damage coefficient after mortal shots and meta gem, correct me if I'm wrong)

M = d * (1 + c * 1.378)
A = d * (1 + c * (1.378 + 0.1) * 1.3) = d * (1 + c * (1.9214))

For the Twins fight, you will receive a 25% damage bonus to the target opposite of your colour, and a 25% deduction to the target of the same colour, that leads to

M = d * (1 + c * 1.378) * (1.25 + 0.75) = d * (1 + c * 1.378) * 2
A = d * (1 + c * (1.9214)) * 1.25

Solving the linear system gives no solution for c > 0, which means MS is always better dps than AiS on the Twins fight. This actually surprises me because I was expecting an intersection so the decision is based on how much crit you have. That is not the case here.

Let us now add in the AiS glyph which reduces the cd on AiS by 20%. That's a theoretical damage increase of 25% (1/0.8 = 1.25), but the cd now overlaps with CS, so let's just settle for 20%. This gives

A = d * (1 + c * (1.9214)) * 1.25 * 1.2

Solving the linear system this time gives A = M at c = 4, that's 400% crit chance, still no good.

With both AiS and TSA glyphs:

A = d * (1 + (c + 0.1) * (1.9214)) * 1.25 * 1.2

Now you only need 170% crit to pull AiS even with MS for Twins. Getting there!

Conclusion: Use MS over AiS for the Twins fight.

I can't put my finger on why I'm having a difficult time breaking the 6K dps barrier, where many other hunters hit 6-7K quite regularly. I think I've got fairly good gear, well gemmed, a solid spec and glyphs, but yet, it eludes me.

There are 2 things I'm thinking are serious problems. 1) I don't have a grim toll nor mjolinir runestone as a MM build. 2) My latency hovers around 300ms.

I've treated Shandara's sheet as a bible, and read through a ton of posts on the EJ forums trying to glean the best information available. I've honed my shot priority and hit a groove in nearly every encounter. Still, last night on HM Beasts 25 man, I eeked out ~5500 DPS which is terrible.

So, is it possible I'd gain 1000dps with a trinket? or am I being hurt by latency? or "other?"

Thanks
-Ado

Is your latency the same all the time, or does it go up in raids? What FPS do you raid at?

PS. If you are MM, MR/GT are a large boost to dps over any other trinket(save DC/DV), get people to go kill Thorim, only took me 9 weeks lol.

Where does the .75 fall into the 25% bonus/deduction? I dont understand the reasoning behind it. I only question it because I dont understand how you are calculating the damage of two different targets one with a 25% bonus and the other with 25% deduction.

And if say the twins are not together(muti-shot doesnt hit both of them) then wouldnt AiS be better in that case assuming the .75 is meant to represent the 25% deduction?

please delete

MS hits up to 3 targets, it doesn't fire 3 shots if there are less than 3 targets. In the case of Twins, your primary target gets hit with a 1.25 modifier, and the "wrong" target gets a 0.75 modifier, so they add up to 2. The equation assumes both targets being hit each time.

The latency is certainly going to hurt you - but i assume you're adjusting the latency value in the spreadsheet to allow for that when calculating your theoretical DPS.

The other thing that could be hurting you as an MM hunter is group make-up. As I pointed out a few pages back, you have to have good target debuffs in place to support an ArP heavy MM build particularly, but that remains true even if you're not ArP heavy due to MMs stronger reliance of physical damage in general. Lose sunders & trauma/mangle and you can easily see 750+ DPS loss.

SV hunters are also susceptible to group make-up issues but ES is such a significant part of your damage output that a single boomkin is usually enough to keep you competitive if the raid is generally lacking in target debuffs that support physical damage.

PS your armory link in your profile is broken and I hope that you just logged out with odd gear on because your hit is way too low as well

I am indeed adjusting the sheet for latency. Thanks for the heads up on the armory link - fixed it. I do realize my hit rating is at 160 with my gear. 160 = 4.88% + 3/3 focused aim = 7.88%, correct? That in combination with a Shadow Priest and/or Boomkin (which we always have) should put me over the top. Edit - I didn't realize the SP/Boomkin buff was for spell hit only, probably going to regem a bit to pick up some hit.

As for group makeup, we bring blood and unholy DK's, and dps warriors that begrudgingly sunder. I think we've got the armor reduction covered.

Thanks for the feedback.

I wish I could, but with the separation of the two NPCs the way my guild does it MS does not hit both at the same time...

Guys, I've been away from theorycrafting for couple of months and I think I've missed out on some stuff. I've been trying to update my beta spreadsheet with new formulas but I seem to be unable to find a correct one for armor penetration cap or the overall armor penetration calculation. I found some conflicting posts from several threads and by far, this is what I understood.

Please correct me if any of the points below are incorrect:

1. Since hunters don't have talents which reduce armor, all we get is 25% from Sunder+FF+gear.

2. The Armor penetration cap is calculated by bosses armor after Sunder+FF is applied (which are applied multiplicatively)

So if boss has 10k armor, it has 7600 armor after sunders+FF. So the cap is calculated to be (7600+15232.5)/3 where the armor constant 15232.5 is not actually the constant for lvl 83 (GC made a mistake on post people say) but it's the constant for lvl 80, the attackers lvl.

So the cap is 7610 in this case. But since boss has already 7600 armor left after Sunders+FF, it means we can ignore all of the remaining armor, so the cap is pretty much meaningless in case of 10k boss armor.

3. So since we can ignore all remaining armor, the game now looks at our ArP from gear. Say I have 50% penetration, then the game calculates 50% of 7600 and let me ignore another 3800 armor, so in total I ignore 2400 armor from Sunder+FF and 3800 from my gear, getting the bosses armor to 3800.



If all the above is correct, then according to my spreadsheet, agility is a better stat than ArP rating for MM hunters, which makes me boggle why everyone is trying to get to 100% penetration by stacking crazy amounts of ArP.

Either the above formulas are incorrect, or something else in my spreadsheet.


Also are there any known bugs with Marked For Death?

Are you guys sure that Chimera (without the Serpent part) is not affected by ArP?
I always wonder about that when I am nuking a Cs into a player with Hand of Protection.
Afaik only the Serpent part goes through, so why wouldn't the mainpart be affected by Arp?

Chimera (main part) is magic damage and is not affected by ArP. If it's not going through hand of protection, that must be a bug.

Mkay, tested it again and you are right. Sorry, my fault.

Chimera is nature damage