Hagen

Concerning run speed enchants:
Of course there are many cases where you can use Aspect of the Cheetah an neglect the effect of the enchant, but I prefer having the little edge on my movement in all situations and especially in those Esoth stated outweighs the couple of DPS I would get from another enchant when I don't have to move.

 

Lupius

I'm having a hard time understanding how run speed enchants would benefit those 1 second movements you described. All you achieve is being able to resume your auto shot 8% sooner, and you do it 2-3 times per fight (for beasts and jaraxxus, anyway). It's still difficult to justify using speed enchant over a more potent one.

I'm not saying there's not a lot of movement in ToC, but we need to categorize them to see which situations actually benefits from a speed enchant. Consider the following:

1. Small movement to get out of the bad (fire, poison, orbs), can dps on the move.
Benefit: resume auto shot faster

2. Long runs to get out of the bad (trample, spikes), no dps on the move.
Benefit: none, pop aspect you noob

3. Moving to get in range of target(infernos, FC, twins, scarabs), no dps on the move.
Benefit: significant

 

Namarus

Not to mention that we have disengage.

 

sefren

My thoughts on runspeed to boots is not that it increases my dps by getting me from A to B faster but rather that it gets you out of w/e is at A faster. Dead dps is no dps and sometimes you just can't use aspect to move out of something. Maybe 10 more AGI is worth that risk but I personally use Cat's Swiftness because it is a risk that doesn't seem to outweigh the benefit of a chance at not dying..

 

◊ v1perz

The pure DPS difference according to the spreadsheet between Cat's Swiftness and Superior Agility in the BiS setup is 17 DPS, and this is in a no movement fight. I don't see how anyone can argue that moving 8% faster doesn't convey more advantage then an extra 17 DPS would. And this is not even counting the increased number of auto shots from getting from A to B quicker (obviously a very small number, perhaps even a fraction, but 17 DPS is an incredibly small number as well).

 

Fuzzwold

I'm intrigued by the idea of an Armor Pen build that drops arcane shot. Someone mentioned that you'd need to have a sufficent level of crit for this to be viable. What number are we talking about?

Also, I use improved hunter's mark since I raid with 3 other hunters. If I dropped improved arcane I'd only be able to take Improved SS or Improved Volley. Is there consensus as to which of these two is better?

 

benisapha

Depending on what gear is available to you, you may not need to make that choice. In an Arcane less build, you wil likely want Improved Barage, as Aimed Shot hits like a truck. I am the Mark hunter in my guild, but only have one point in FA. This allows 3 in Imp. Barrage, and 2 in ISS. The reason that it is only 2 in ISS it that i have one in Rapid Recoup, as I found both Beasts, Jaraxus, and Twins to be mana intensive, and lately our ret has been tanking.

If you did not need 1 pt in Rapid Recoup, you could easily max out both. Also, this is the setup (with gear i have available) that the spreadsheet says is highest, not some whim. I do wear 4pc (minus shoulders), so you do not even need to go crazy on hit (although from a weighted standpoint, the set chest is actualy realy good, were just all averse to hit, as it is not Arp).

 

Wrhipno

I as well am with Fuzzyworld on some questions about MM. I have done as much research as I think I can and I think I'm missing something because I do more damage as survival. However, I don't have 2 piece yet, but I have pieces of gear that give me great stats until I manage to get trophies. I've checked out WMO ( WoW Meters Online ) for peoples type of damage and see what kind of gear they are using, as well as spec and glyphs. After looking into that, I think I found that just about everyone has a different spec and glyph setup to their liking. I tried going MM using one of the guys builds whos stats was probably the closest to mine (I have 4.8kap, 42% crit, hit cap. 543 Static ARP). After going MM and raiding in a standard place where I usually go, like VoA or ToC, I have seen my DPS drop, rather then scale. I don't know if I'm missing something, or there is a minimum requirement or what, which is leading me to post here. According to some of the spreadsheets posted on EJ's Hunter Forums, I should be doing about 7.5k DPS as MM fully raid buffed and I do 2k less then that. That is what is leading me to these:

Thinks I have a concern on:

~Does it require a high DPS Weapon because of chim shots unmodified weapon damage?
~Do you need to have a certain % to crit before going MM?
~To use the ARP Build(omitting the improved arcane shot talent), do you need to have Mjolinar Runestone and Grim Toll?

I have asked several people in game who are MM and I got all different answers. Sorry to make such a long post, just I don't know where else to turn after doing so much research, even on EJ.

Thanks.

 

Cranch

The best way to understand why is by combat log analysis; worldoflogs is very good for that.

In decreasing order of effect on your dps (compared to the spreadsheet): your buffs didn't match, the boss debuffs didn't match, or your shot rotation didn't match. (There are also modelling errors in the spreadsheet, but these errors will generally be smaller than the previous items mentioned.)

Try using the target dummy and set the spreadsheet up to match the buffs you have, and enable combat logging.

I switch between MM and SV depending on the boss; SV does more damage for me if I have to change targets often.

 

bronnum

Reply on concerns:

1 - High dps weapons are always preferable; the way I chose upon weapons are: dps>slow attack speed>stats. You should be able to find a very good post explaining this, think it's called "hunter stats and scaling".

2 - There is no direct crit requirement. However, if you follow the gemming recommendations with red=agi, yellow=hit>crit/agi, and blue=agi (with a single blue of +10stats). With sufficient gear your crit should be fine in raids.

3 - ArmPen have been discussed thoroughly in this thread! Think the fast/easy explaining is regarding MM spec: with 0-350 armPen, use Arcane Shot. With 350-800 leave out Arcane Shot. With 800-cap armPen, start to gem for it. Only the middle of these, 350-800 armpen, requires you to have Mjolner or Grim Toll.

Edit: "requires you to have Mjolner or Grim Toll." This isn't exactly true - but it's worth the while if you cant get your fingers on Death's Verdict + HC version.

 

R00k!3

@bronnum
point 1:
I also used this order to choose my weapons. However lately I got the Crossbow from toc25 heroic and the Spreadsheet modelled an dps increase in comparison with my t2 Arena Bow although the Crossbow is .2 faster.
Any thoughts on this?

 

boli

That rule of thumb (dps > slow speed > stats) doesn't hold for PvP vs. PvE weapon comparisons. In this case the stats of the PvE weapon are so much better than the PvP weapon stats as to make up for the faster attack speed:
40 agi, 32 arp, 32 haste and a blue socket >> 32 crit, 48 ap, 32 resi, 25 sta

 

benisapha

The question about weapons and sv. vs. mm spec was more of an issue in 3.0, and early 3.1. This came about because of Chimera Shot's reliance on weapon dmg, vs. Survival's ES not relying upon it. This was exacerbated with the change to weapon dmg on weapons ilvl 226 and above to be considerably higher damage than those 219 and below. This meant that those without a 226 weapon would do more damage as Survival than MM, by a considerable margin.

Currently, you will still need to sppreadsheet the different specs, but both are viable, and SV still seems to be slightly less gear dependant (not tested by me, more alegorical). Also, if you run in more disorganized raids, where you will not see 100% uptime on debuffs, or you have to target switch alot like the previous poster said, this penalizes Survival less.

 

stevevai

i was looking to the Top Hunter Dps players , and no one of them have the trueshot aura
why this? it this a lost point in the MM tree?
thanks

 

R00k!3

Yes it is, as far as there is another player who can provide the 10% Atp effect.
For example Engancement Shamans/Blood Dks always have the 10% Atp Aura pendant anyway, so there is no need for you to skill it.

When there is none of them, or anothere Hunter which has it, you should skill it to support your and yours raid DPS.

 

Whitefyst

It's personal preferrence. Mine is to always have the skill for several reasons:

1) Its one single talent point for 10% AP - a huge boost for the raid. Not many other single talent points are worth so much
2) There really is not any other good options deep in MM tree - ISS has such a small DPS gain
3) If even there are other classes in the raid that can provide the 10% AP buff:
- Their buffs are not auras with 100% uptime including at the start of battles
- They can die

Thus, I prefer to give up like 20 DPS from having a point in ISS to make sure that myself and the raid when I am alive always have a 10% AP buff.

 

Resuu

However, by taking the point out of TSA and putting it into RR or 3/3 Imp SS, with the 99.9% uptime from other classes, it's a fairly reasonable dps increase. RR provides rediculous regen on add intensive fights and Imp SS on non-movement intensive fights. The best remedy in my opinion is having a second spec without TSA in case you are pugging something. However, if you do all of your raids with a guild that has a set roster, which guarantees a 10% ap buff, then there is no reason for you to take the point. Btw, the spreadsheet doesn't model Tuskarr's or Cat's Vitality correctly so don't use it for these two enchants (one would think this was apparent when it was stated it was a non-movement fight).

Back to boot enchants, the reason they are worth so much, and it's apparent many of y'all don't do this judging from your answers, is that it allows you to stutter step to a target rather than strictly run there. Auto shot is by far the highest dmg'ing shot, which should be apparent to anyone reading this thread. This being said by combining the az shot mod, you can time your stutter steps to never miss an auto shot whether moving or not, and you can still get from spot A to spot B at the same speed if you are moving 2.6 second every 60 seconds. The purpose is not to get from A to B quicker, but to allow for stutter stepping and getting from point A to B just as quickly.

 

Resuu

Yes, there is a recommended crit level, however, at the point where you have enough armor pen to drop ArS you also should have enough passive crit to not worry about the crit required. In regards to the second question, Imp SS ideally needs to be maximized

 

Hagen

This is simply wrong. ISS is the last talent you take and the first you take your points out when you need them somewhere else.

 

Mustacheride

Oh hi Resu nice to see you're saying random things still. Auto shot is the highest single % of our damage. Saying "highest dmg'ing shot" could be taken to mean more than that. Your stutter step comment is assuming a lot of things though. You are assuming that you are running frequently and for long distances where you would be losing said auto shots and with nothing trying to bite you in the ass. Disengage easily covers most large distances and if a shit is on your ass like zombies in a movie you wouldn't want to stop.

 

Resuu

No, running for long distances would obviously favor disengage, whereas frequent, short 2-4 second bursts of movement would favor stutter stepping such as being like 5 yards out of position on say Jaraxxus when switching to adds, etc.

PS: Still waiting on some Koralon meters where you out-dmg me :'(

 

Lurne

I keep reading people's posts about dropping points in ISS or RR for various other things. I've got TSA, max ISS and RR and I don't know what I would do with the points if I took them out - nothing else seems to be worth it. I realize that ISS is not the greatest talent, however according to the spreadsheet its a dps loss for me to spec into IHM and Imp Arcane shot. Is it one of those things of personal preference (having Imp Arcane for another strong instant cast for movement fights?) or if you need points for FA? Am I completely missing the boat?

I run the CS, AiS, SSx4 rotation should that make a difference.

 

boli

If IHM is better than ISS, your spreadsheet may have the Hunter's Mark debuff set by another hunter, possibly even the improved and glyphed version? You may want to remove that, if it isn't true. When I did that I found that IHM > ISS.

Personally I also like the Hawk Eye talent, which obviously shows as 0 dps in the spreadsheet, but its actual value may be more than that. Compare this to runspeed enchants on boots, which show as a dps loss in the spreadsheet, but may be useful in practice.

 

Hagen

As boli stated IHM is better than ISS if no one else has it already, but if you can decrease your hit enought you can put up to three points into Focused Fire.

 

Bluesfear

I am seeing a 0.5dps decrease on spreadsheet with BiS gears and 1 dps decrease with my own gear when I switch points from ISS to IHM (and yes I changed the target debuff). So I don't think IHM is better than ISS, at least that's not what the spreadsheet says.