What I usually do is use readiness as soon as Chimera and Aimed have been fired during CoTW+Runestone, fire them again, and then not use the 2nd rapidfire until my 2nd Runestone proc. This leads to the following questions:
i. Is it worth using a GCD on readiness during Runestone+Cotw+Paragon? Yes, doing so means getting an extra pair of very buffed up chimera and aimed shots, but it means losing 1 steady shot to the Readiness GCD, and trading 2 steadyshots for chimera and aimed. With runestone procced, those steadyshots are hitting for quite a lot already.
What got my attention with this set of questions is GCD usage during trinket procs, particularly Runestone. The reason I mention that is because of threat generation. Using Northrend Beasts heroic as the example, I use Misdirection roughly 20 seconds before the tank engages, then Rapid Fire + Aimed > Chimera > Serpent > Steady x1 (x2 depending on timing) > MD > Aimed > Chimera > Readiness > MD > Aimed > Chimera > at which point I fall into the standard rotation. In this specific scenario I waste a number of buffed specials because I'm focusing on getting 3 MDs within the first 10 seconds of the encounter (or 4.5 seconds of GCD uptime).
i. Is it worth using a GCD on readiness during Runestone+Cotw+Paragon? Yes, doing so means getting an extra pair of very buffed up chimera and aimed shots, but it means losing 1 steady shot to the Readiness GCD, and trading 2 steadyshots for chimera and aimed. With runestone procced, those steadyshots are hitting for quite a lot already.
ii. Is it worth waiting for the 2nd Runestone proc 45~50 seconds later before using my 2nd Rapid Fire? Doing so offsets every other Rapid Fire and Readiness cooldown later in the fight.
Question (i) I'm pretty sure I can answer easily enough for myself by looking at my shot damages in the spreadsheet with the buffs edited in, I suspect the answer is that I shouldn't use the readiness till the procs have worn off - the difference is probably quite slight though, since even after procs I'm making the same trade, it'll just be that chimera is worth relatively more outside a runestone proc than inside. Since Runestone doesn't last as long as CotW, perhaps it would be best to use Readiness once Runestone has worn off but while CotW is still up?
Question (ii) my head hurts trying to analyse, especially with how much our kill durations vary, so if anyone else has considered it, your conclusions would be appreciated.
These look like reasonable questions, but I would suspect that you are not going to be able to achieve a clear cut answer. Instead it's more likely to be highly situational.
It is very unlikely that you will find a situation where you can use readiness with the GCD otherwise going unused. Whether you use it during a trinket proc or not, you are always going to eat some kind of DPS penalty. With mjolnir procced my numbers would be 16959 for chimera, 11113 for aimed, and 6688 for steady. If you do chim+aim+readiness you aren't replacing steady shots with specials, but are effectively moving your rotation up 7 seconds with an additional 1.5 seconds. So it's more like a 60%-70% increase in chim/aimed damage at the cost of three steady shots, if that makes sense. Long term, it's a chance at getting an extra chimera and aimed every 3 minutes which probably isn't going to be huge. Instead, I think it would probably be more important to look at a window of time where DPS needs to be concentrated, such as an add that has to die or a shield that has to be destroyed in 10 seconds. Using readiness here would give you an extra chimera and aimed at the cost of three steadies within that window, and although it also means that your chimera/aimed usage on the boss will get pushed back slightly, it is pretty easy to see that aimed+chimera>steady*3 in the window where DPS mattered the most.
i. So looking at it that way, numbers with mjolnir would be 16959 for chimera, 11113 for aimed, and 6688 for steady for me. 8008 damage gain using readiness here. Without the proc, 9053 for aimed and 5448 for steady, so a 7996 gain. The difference between using it inside or outside the proc looks trivial.
ii. You can consider rapid fire as being a 40% increase in auto shot damage and wild quiver damage for its duration. Ignoring wild quiver for a second, mjolnir would up auto damage by about 22%. Mjolnir's duration is only 2/3 of rapid fire so I think the percent increase in damage would be 1.22*1.4*2/3+1.4*1/3=161% over the full 15 seconds. Let's say you did 1000 damage in 15 seconds. If you had 15 seconds of rapid fire plus mjolnir within that, and another 15 seconds of no damage increase, it would be 1610+1000=2610 damage. If instead you had no mjolnir proc but were able to use double rapid fire, it would be 1400+1400=2800. Getting off two rapid fires is better than getting off one rapid fire stacked with the mjolnir proc, so you're going to have to make the judgement call as to whether or not delaying rapid fire in order to stack it with the proc is going to force you to lose a rapid fire over the course of the fight.
A quick bit of imput here in regards to haste stacking or not on Anub25H. Rapid Fire does not reduce the channel on Volley nor do Imp Hawk procs. Haste Potions (which you should be popping one before every pull and saving another for sub-30%), hand accelerators, and WoA/Ret-Moonkin auras affect your channel duration.
I also found that properly timing your volleys so that you account for latency whilst not clipping your final tick was the difference between 6,500 and 9,000 dps for me so be mindful you're not clipping your final Tick of Volley.
Originally Posted by Gozardina
at which point I fall into the standard rotation. In this specific scenario I waste a number of buffed specials because I'm focusing on getting 3 MDs within the first 10 seconds of the encounter (or 4.5 seconds of GCD uptime).
The pull is always going to be the shakiest on threat because everyone's trinkets are off ICD and the tank has the lowest amount of threat versus the raid. That being said, your tank shouldn't be needing 3 MDs within the first 40 seconds. Have your rogues throw their first tricks on the tank, and remember if you can MD 3 times, you can feign 3 times.
While it is kind of overkill to fire 3 (not to mention 4) MDs within that short a time span, if you don't feel like wasting some medium cooldowns (such as MD and FD) before using Readiness, then by all means, do it - nobody ever died from tanks having too much threat. You have to be aware, though, you're likely going to have to sacrifice some good dps GCDs for it, and I'd recommend replacing steady shots whenever possible.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
These look like reasonable questions, but I would suspect that you are not going to be able to achieve a clear cut answer. Instead it's more likely to be highly situational.
It is very unlikely that you will find a situation where you can use readiness with the GCD otherwise going unused. Whether you use it during a trinket proc or not, you are always going to eat some kind of DPS penalty. With mjolnir procced my numbers would be 16959 for chimera, 11113 for aimed, and 6688 for steady. If you do chim+aim+readiness you aren't replacing steady shots with specials, but are effectively moving your rotation up 7 seconds with an additional 1.5 seconds. So it's more like a 60%-70% increase in chim/aimed damage at the cost of three steady shots, if that makes sense. Long term, it's a chance at getting an extra chimera and aimed every 3 minutes which probably isn't going to be huge. Instead, I think it would probably be more important to look at a window of time where DPS needs to be concentrated, such as an add that has to die or a shield that has to be destroyed in 10 seconds. Using readiness here would give you an extra chimera and aimed at the cost of three steadies within that window, and although it also means that your chimera/aimed usage on the boss will get pushed back slightly, it is pretty easy to see that aimed+chimera>steady*3 in the window where DPS mattered the most.
i. So looking at it that way, numbers with mjolnir would be 16959 for chimera, 11113 for aimed, and 6688 for steady for me. 8008 damage gain using readiness here. Without the proc, 9053 for aimed and 5448 for steady, so a 7996 gain. The difference between using it inside or outside the proc looks trivial.
ii. You can consider rapid fire as being a 40% increase in auto shot damage and wild quiver damage for its duration. Ignoring wild quiver for a second, mjolnir would up auto damage by about 22%. Mjolnir's duration is only 2/3 of rapid fire so I think the percent increase in damage would be 1.22*1.4*2/3+1.4*1/3=161% over the full 15 seconds. Let's say you did 1000 damage in 15 seconds. If you had 15 seconds of rapid fire plus mjolnir within that, and another 15 seconds of no damage increase, it would be 1610+1000=2610 damage. If instead you had no mjolnir proc but were able to use double rapid fire, it would be 1400+1400=2800. Getting off two rapid fires is better than getting off one rapid fire stacked with the mjolnir proc, so you're going to have to make the judgement call as to whether or not delaying rapid fire in order to stack it with the proc is going to force you to lose a rapid fire over the course of the fight.
Just thought it would be worth to mention that you also get an extra silencing shot (physical dmg) inside the buffed window, extra arp with mjolnir.
And what I do on the pull is to apply serpent sting, pop up all my cds and pray that mjolnir and death's veredict will proc soon. After that I start with chimera then aimed+silencing and readiness. Most of the time both trinkets will proc before aimed+silencing.
About chaining or coupling RF with mjolnir procs, it depends on the duration of the fight. If you can use readiness only once then wait on mjolnir for the 2nd RF. Not taking into account fights where you have burst phases.
Personally I use the first Chimera/Aimed for MD. After that Paragon is up in the most cases, so I use my first RF+CotW and apply Serpent Sting to get a the most benefit out of the Serpent Dot & Chimera Proc.
Maybe it is a waste of one Gcd but afaik the damage modifiers remain also when Serpent Sting is refreshed by Chimera.
Personally I use the first Chimera/Aimed for MD. After that Paragon is up in the most cases, so I use my first RF+CotW and apply Serpent Sting to get a the most benefit out of the Serpent Dot & Chimera Proc.
Maybe it is a waste of one Gcd but afaik the damage modifiers remain also when Serpent Sting is refreshed by Chimera.
It was fixed long ago, When serpent is refreshed, it recalculates the damage of Serpent Sting based on current stats at the time. The ability to pop everything then put up serpent sting to have it continue to use those values no longer applies. Things like attack power buffs wont remain anymore for serpent sting.
However, anything that is a damage multiplier buff (like Vezax's Shadow Crash multiplied bonus) remains at that value when refreshed when no longer under the buff.
"The fun about this sentence is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything, it's too late to stop reading it."
It was fixed long ago, When serpent is refreshed, it recalculates the damage of Serpent Sting based on current stats at the time. The ability to pop everything then put up serpent sting to have it continue to use those values no longer applies. Things like attack power buffs wont remain anymore for serpent sting.
However, anything that is a damage multiplier buff (like Vezax's Shadow Crash multiplied bonus) remains at that value when refreshed when no longer under the buff.
One thing that I haven't seen any testing on, with respect to 2T9, is whether crit percent is carried over with chimera refresh like % damage buffs, or recalculated like AP. In other words: is the AP recalculation the special case (they "fixed" rolling stings by implementing just AP recalculation), or is % buffs the special case (whatever random bug causes it to persist, despite rolling stings being fixed in general).
Granted, there's not many short-lived buffs that increase crit percent directly, but agility procs certainly do indirectly. The actual DPS potential of pegging serpent sting at 100% crit, or whatever, for a whole fight is fairly minimal, but it would be interesting to find out which way rolling stings was fixed for future knowledge.
My spreadsheet shows Hand Mounted Pyro Rockets are superior to both those glove "enchants" by >10 dps. You certainly cannot "stack" effects of the rockets with other buffs, but it is more of a fire and forget ability if you macro it to one of your shots.
While I'm not sure this is "theory-crafting", I wanted to offer another advantage of the Hyperspeed Accelerator enchants: Obviously my main priority is to activate them pretty much as soon as they are available and ideally if another item (trinket) has procced, but depending on the length of the fight they can be a very nice way to regain mana: go into Viper, activate the gloves, and return to Dragonhawk once the glove finishes. During the span of time the glove is active I will fire steady shots only - saving an immediate Aimed then Chimera [or vice versa depending on if ISS has procced] shot once I've returned to Dragonhawk. I've found that while the spreadsheet indicates the Pyro Rockets give marginally better dps, using the gloves to regain mana this way makes me have to resort to "plain old" Viper in only rare cases/fights because using the gloves can virtually replenish my mana bar from a single use.
Also, as pointed out above, the Accelerators increase channeling speed of Volley. For H Anub I find this to be a very nice way to help on the adds, and will replenish a new Volley cast with 1 sec left on the gloves - so that I get the hasted Volley effect for the entire channeled time despite the gloves having gone into CD by the time the channeled Volley ends.
I use Misdirection roughly 20 seconds before the tank engages, then Rapid Fire + Aimed > Chimera > Serpent > Steady x1 (x2 depending on timing) > MD > Aimed > Chimera > Readiness > MD > Aimed > Chimera > at which point I fall into the standard rotation.
Why would you shoot Serpent after Chimera and lose the serpent-sting damage from Chimera?
Why would you shoot Serpent after Chimera and lose the serpent-sting damage from Chimera?
He's doing it for threat only. The amount of threat you can maximize from MD (until 3.3 when it becomes amazing) is so pathetic that relying on hunters to build threat for the tank to such an extent does not sound practical.
One thing that I haven't seen any testing on, with respect to 2T9, is whether crit percent is carried over with chimera refresh like % damage buffs, or recalculated like AP. In other words: is the AP recalculation the special case (they "fixed" rolling stings by implementing just AP recalculation), or is % buffs the special case (whatever random bug causes it to persist, despite rolling stings being fixed in general).
Granted, there's not many short-lived buffs that increase crit percent directly, but agility procs certainly do indirectly. The actual DPS potential of pegging serpent sting at 100% crit, or whatever, for a whole fight is fairly minimal, but it would be interesting to find out which way rolling stings was fixed for future knowledge.
Apparently the similar refresh mechanism Shadow Priests have for their crittable dots (SWP I think?) lock in the crit rate present at the time of the initial cast of the DoT - so if for instance you pop a wild magic potion before combat and apply your DoT to the boss before it wears off, you maintain the increased critical strike chance through all refreshes during the fight. I'm a bit unclear whether this applies to crit damage boosting effects like Storm Power on Hodir too, or %crit buffs like Spores on Loatheb, but it apparently definitely applies to crit rating buffs.
They outline some of the testing they did at [ShadowPriest] Dot critting logic and 3.1 , we could try to replicate some of it as well, with stuff like getting naked, stinging a target dummy, dropping combat, equipping gear quickly and refreshing via chimera shot.
He's doing it for threat only. The amount of threat you can maximize from MD (until 3.3 when it becomes amazing) is so pathetic that relying on hunters to build threat for the tank to such an extent does not sound practical.
So far it's not so much an issue of building threat on the tank as it is an issue of dropping thread on the hunter, especially in the case where FD screws up some times. It's quite horrible to rise from a FD without resetting the threat, given that our initial threat generation is that high.
Last edited by Enova : 11/19/09 at 10:23 AM.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Why would you shoot Serpent after Chimera and lose the serpent-sting damage from Chimera?
He's doing it under the assumption that your damage multipliers at the time Serpent Sting is applied will apply to the sting as long as it is active. Hence, it would make sense to wait until your trinket has procced before you apply the sting. However, as others have pointed out, this assumption is currently false.
It is likely because Serpent Sting consumes a MD charge, while the threat from the ticks of Serpent Sting are not transfered unless you actually have a MD charge up.
Clarification:
MD -> Aimed -> Serpent -> Chimera, 3 charges consumed. Only threat from Aimed and Chimera are transfered.
MD -> Serpent -> Chimera, 2 charges consumed. Threat from serpent sting now included, until you lose MD buff.
MD -> Serpent -> Chimera, 2 charges consumed. Threat from serpent sting now included, until you lose MD buff.
It is important to note that in this case, Chimera Shot will take up both remaining MD charges (one for Chimera Shot, and one for Chimera - Serpent), so Serpent Sting still will transfer no threat. If threat is the primary concern, it is usually best to not fire Serpent Sting.
Originally Posted by Seonid
One of the advantages of not being a developer is that I have no knowledge of any "proper" way to do anything. That and C is liking coding in an illustrated version of assembler.
In regards to the MD discussion, I think its important to note that auto shot also uses a charge. I've noticed other hunters in my guild having trouble with misdirecting adds on AA when they pull threat by using up all 3 charges and firing off a CS or Aimed Shot after. I have had no issues getting adds to our OTs by watching my auto shots with Quartz. In most cases CS and AiS are on cd so I simply target the add, pop MD, AutoShot>Steady Shot>Auto Shot, back to Anub. This has been consistently the best way for me personally to handle my job as quickly as possible and get back to the boss.
@ki6485
Basically you're trading 30% more Hawk AP (a static gain not scaling with gear) for what looks to be
a) Silencing Shot
b) Wild Quiver
If your gear level is low enough that the static AP gain is a net gain over those two talents you probably aren't ArP capped, and thus should be including IMP Arcane. If your gear level supports dropping Arcane then Silence+WQ are going to net you more dps.
Rejoice! The new ArP trinket (Needle-Encrusted Scorpion) obtainable from 5-man heroic IC in PTR has been buffed from being a marginal sidegrade to Mjollnir Runestone (452 ArP proc) to a definite upgrade (678 ArP proc). Gone has the days of slaving myself to terrible ulduar10 PUGs.
I just hope that the drop rate isn't marginally low or tied to an encounter where there are a pool of bosses (VH, Palatress/Eadric in ToC). Took me more than 2 months of doing H ToC every single day since patch day to obtain my Marrowstrike polearm back then.
Rejoice! The new ArP trinket (Needle-Encrusted Scorpion) obtainable from 5-man heroic IC in PTR has been buffed from being a marginal sidegrade to Mjollnir Runestone (452 ArP proc) to a definite upgrade (678 ArP proc). Gone has the days of slaving myself to terrible ulduar10 PUGs.
I just hope that the drop rate isn't marginally low or tied to an encounter where there are a pool of bosses (VH, Palatress/Eadric in ToC). Took me more than 2 months of doing H ToC every single day since patch day to obtain my Marrowstrike polearm back then.
If it goes live as-is, even with the buff and even with the 0.26% crit difference in their static stats, Mjolnir will come out ahead still.
N.E.S. proc: 10% chance on CRIT for 678 arp
M.R. proc: 15% chance on HIT for 665
But, that being said, it's defiantly great for people that never got M.R.
If it goes live as-is, even with the buff and even with the 0.26% crit difference in their static stats, Mjolnir will come out ahead still.
N.E.S. proc: 10% chance on CRIT for 678 arp
M.R. proc: 15% chance on HIT for 665
But, that being said, it's defiantly great for people that never got M.R.
Considering how high our crit rates are, I think in practice that distinction will be largely irrelevant.
<Blackpatch>: i feel so bad for north koreans
<Blackpatch>: imagine
<Blackpatch>: there are kids living 30 miles north of seoul
<Blackpatch>: who have never heard of banelings
<Bryne>: monkeys only throw shit everywhere because they're smart enough to realize: EVERYONE HATES SHIT
If it goes live as-is, even with the buff and even with the 0.26% crit difference in their static stats, Mjolnir will come out ahead still.
N.E.S. proc: 10% chance on CRIT for 678 arp
M.R. proc: 15% chance on HIT for 665
But, that being said, it's defiantly great for people that never got M.R.
I am too excited that I almost forgot that detail. However, with the way my uld10 PUGs work (and we can safely assume that come 3.3 nobody will care about ulduar anymore), I don't expect to obtain MR any soon. I'm just a bit surprised how this trinket is a pretty hot topic on some of the other physical DPS threads, but not so much on Hunter's.
If it goes live as-is, even with the buff and even with the 0.26% crit difference in their static stats, Mjolnir will come out ahead still.
N.E.S. proc: 10% chance on CRIT for 678 arp
M.R. proc: 15% chance on HIT for 665
But, that being said, it's defiantly great for people that never got M.R.
The thing is, if you're already soft-capped on ArP, I don't think this makes a difference unless the NES's uptime is somehow higher than MRs (which seems unlikely given the above proc-info). I'm softcapped via a few gems, so I'd gain by replacing one ArP gem with an agi gem, and gaining some passive crit. People who are softcapped from gear alone will only gain crit.
I think I actually preferred the original iteration of NES, which has the much smaller proc value, but reportedly had a much lower ICD than MR too, leading to double the uptime - that would have netted a DPS gain even at much higher passive ArP.
Hi there,
I was just curious as to the way other hunter keep their dps high during the burrow phase of Anub'arak. I currently just try and get all the small adds down as quickly as possible so they do not build up stacks on people, but even with doing as much damage on the small scarabs as I can I still loose around 1 - 1.5k dps. I was hoping someone had some tips like keep a serpent sting on all the adds you see or something of that matter. Thanks and sorry if this is a noobish question.
11/16/09, 2:30 PM
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