I hate to get into nit-picking here, but "very very rare" could in theory mean that you go through entire raid encounters without seing a single proc of any trinket. Or allways proc when you least need it or get wasted by something random happening.

It doesn't change the fact that statistically the mismatched procrate of these two trinkets make it more unlikely for them to proc at the same time than if they were to have the same proc rate.

I still wouldn't recommend using the scorpion and the runestone together at totgc25 or icc25 levels either if you have a better trinket, but if all you have are crap trinkets then who are we to say that this combo is worse without properly modelling it and calculating the dps.

Is there an consensus yet on the value of the new Epic Ammo?[Iceblade Arrow] and [Shatter Rounds]

In other words, is it worth it, DPS-wise, to use these with an MM build? I think it will be, but other hunters in my guild think it is just an added expense for minimal gain.

Since MM hunters benefit a lot from weapon DPS the new ammunition is definitely worth it.
If you doubt that check the differences between vendor ammo and Saronite Razorheads/Mammoth Cutters.

Its a straight dps increase no matter how you slice it. There is absolutely no draw back to using them. Unless you're cheap in which case the price will drop dramatically over the next few weeks anyway.

I'm wondering if it is worth my while, as an engineer/hunter, to get one of the schematics for my own use.

Having the schematics tied to specialization is a pain in the keister. Do I make bullets, and sell them to buy arrows for my current bow/xbow, or do I switch specializations as my weapon changes? Or do I just buy the bloody things, and not worry about making my own ammo?

As a dwarf, I should be using a gun, but Onyxia has been stingy and the only ICC gun better than my [Felglacier Bolter] is [Stakethrower]. I have a much better chance of getting [Zod's Repeating Longbow]. My guild has a hard time getting people enthused for ToC.

Gah, why did blizzard have to make this so annoying.

That is a bit like saying I'm not going to pick up a Talonstrike (heroic) because I already have a Talonstrike (normal).

I just picked up a [Mjolnir Runestone] this week, I also have a [Needle-Encrusted Scorpion] and [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]

My Armory has the wrong weapon on, I use a [Baelgun's Heavy Crossbow] normally.

I know that we're not supposed to model after the spreadsheet 100% and that it is simply a guildline, but with the Runestone and NES I have a higher DPS (5106.51) increase than running Runestone and Greatness (5096.36)

If both of the trinkets proc at the same time I'm wasting ~300 ArP which can be detrimental as previously mentioned by other posters. However trying to model gear around the chance of both trinkets procing at the same time seem a bit of a headache. For the time being I've been manually de-syncing them (put on greatness and then when the tank is about to pull put the NES back on).

The point of my post is that from what I'm reading, despite the fact the spreadsheet tells me that the Runestone/NES is more DPS, in practice Runestone/Greatness is better?

Im not sure why the spreadsheet would show that, from I've personally observed with those two trinkets is that they share a cd. I've never seen them both up at the same time or proc close together.

I personally still run with mjol/dmc:g since mjol has a higher up-time than nes.

They do not share a cooldown. Tested for 15 minutes going oom then switching to viper to regen. Majority of the time NES procced a few seconds after mjol. Couple times both procced at the same time.

On the topic of the new bullets and arrows.

The mats for the current Mammoth Cutters/Saronite Razorheads have already been dropped, and I would bet that mats avg 3-5 g per 1000 ammo on any server.

Other than the first person to get the pattern(who will have a short monopoly), the mats for these new rounds are 2 crystalized earth or shadow. Even if these sell for 10g per eternal on your realm, you are looking at 10 g for 5k rounds.
Let me spell it out.

The mats are 1/3 the cost of the mats for the current rounds, and if you are using vendor rounds in a raid, I am not even sure why you are coming to these boards.

If you are not an engineer (which I am not), find a buddy who is, get him the pattern, and have him make you 200k rounds, which by the way is a total of 2 stacks of either etenal earth or eternal shadow.

I for one cannot wait to honor farm tonight, as we already have the saronite for both the rounds, but in the rush to clear ICC last week, we did not get near enough honor.

The spreadsheet shows that because AFAIK the spreadsheet still models ArP proc trinkets in terms of their average arp contribution over the fight - so for instance if you are 500 arp from cap, and have 2 trinkets equipped that each proc 500 arp at 50% uptime, the sheet would calculate them as being 250 passive arp each. So equipping both would make the sheet do the math for being perfectly capped all the time, when in reality you will only ever be 500 arp short of cap, exactly at cap, or 500 over cap. Wearing both would increase the time you spend at cap, but I don't think the sheet currently tries to work this out in the weighted average of your ArP value.

Do we have any additional tests on this new internal cooldown? It seems kinda strange to me that Blizzard would suddenly design a proc trinket w/o the same proc rate as every other trinket! Just think of the tuning around the iLvl budget, not a trivial task.
Do you have the logs to support that proc rate; thinking of the possibility of the 5 secs difference could be due to NES proc'ing on crit and not normal attacks?

I think appropriate place to test NES iCD would be Naxx's boss that gives +50% crit.

I have the following trinkets: Greatness, Normal Death's Choice, Grim Toll, Banner of Victory, and Mirror. I prefer the MM spec because I find Surv. boring. The problem I am having is that the new gear I have received from ICC has been very hit rating heavy, with no arm. pen. although the new gear has more gem slots. With the new gear, the hit rating from Grim Toll is useless, and I am way over hit cap. With the choices in gear that I have, I'm having a hard time deciding if I should switch to Surv. over marks since my agi is so high, using both Greatness and DC, or stay with Marks, use DC and GT and ignore the extra hit rating. I am not gemmed for ArP, because I am asked to switch into Surv. for some fights for Replenishment. Basically, with all of that rambling information, I am asking if it would be better for an Agi based MM hunter to switch to Surv. with the trinket choices I have. If I have the choice in the future to go straight Arm. Pen. I will do that. Hopefully MR or the new Scorpion trinket will come into my possession soon.

The ICD is what the "Procodile" addon was reporting, meaning it never saw it proc less than 50 sec apart over ~150 procs. I have a couple screenshots from about 100 of these procs (I reset the addon a few times, but the other 50 procs was also 50s cooldown reported). It correctly reports other trinkets like greatness and death's choice as 45 sec.



The top one is on a target dummy, the bottom one is ICC25 and TOGC25.

But yes someone else with this trinket should download the addon and see what they get after a while.

A little stats exercise to help determine the true proc rate of this trinket:

Using kabes/Bendok's data above, we can convert the Procs per Minute value to Seconds per Proc. This yields 76s/proc in unbuffed conditions, and 66s/proc in raid. With the ICD determined at 50s, this means the Average Time to Proc are 26s and 16s respectively.

Since the proc effect follows the exponential probability distribution, we can use this information to solve the cumulative distribution function at 0.5 to determine the empirical proc rate, which is 0.026659 for dummy and 0.04332125 in raid, measured in Procs/second.
In reverse logic, this means that if Bendok can proc the trinket 0.026659 times per second on the target dummy unbuffed, there is a 50% chance that the trinket would have proc'ed at 26 seconds after the ICD is up, so he should see a trinket proc every 76 seconds on average.

The difficult part is to actually relate the empirical proc rate to the programmed proc rate based on the crit chance of the hunter. I will use only the dummy data from Bendok, since it's more reliable than raid data for the following reasons:

• I assume every gcd is used on a skill that can crit to proc the trinket, as opposed to in raid where mark or sting have to be reapplied, or there's time spent not attacking.
• There are no raid buffs that alter the empirical proc rate significantly, such as bloodlust/hero.
• Down time in raid allows paragon/greatness procs to help this proc more often than it should.

In unbuffed conditions, Bendok has a base crit of 53.35% and autoshot speed of 2.25 (let's say 2.1 to account for IAotH procs). His white damage crit rate measured in crits/second is 0.254.
His yellow damage is more difficult to model since steady shots get 4% crit and aimed shots 12%. Assuming a standard rotation of CS-AiS-SSx4, we have an average of 58.02% crit on 6 shots per 10 seconds, or 0.3481 crits/second.
This gives a total of 0.6021 crits/second.

Divide this into the previous empirical procs per second 0.026659, and we get 0.04428. This means the [Needle-Encrusted Scorpion] has a 4.4% chance to proc on crit. This is ridiculously low since from my experience I can tell my Grim Toll's proc rate is at least 20%.

Of course, this result is based on just one data point. If anyone wishes to look further into this, I suggest testing with just auto shots and without IAotH and 2nd trinket.

Also without speccing into IAotH, as I suggested in the last line of my post. The use of distribution approximation is still necessary, but it trivializes the 2nd step (relating the empirical proc rate to the programmed proc rate).

Hi guys, I have a question. As mm using the 2 set T9 set bonus it becomes beneficial to roll srp stings on multiple targets that are going to be up for decent periods of time from my understanding of the reading/theorycrafting I have done. Should I only be refreshing my stings on the actual boss via chimera shot assuming he is properly debuffed and just refreshing my stings on adds via srp sting cast? Is their a certain number of adds that need to be up to see a dmg increase in rolling srp stings? For example if their is only one or two extra adds up (assuming their going to be in the fight for awhile) would it not be worth the GCD's refreshing stings on the adds?

Thanks.

Everytime you replace a Steady Shot GCD with a Serpent Sting, it's a DPS upgrade. With the critting SrS, the SrS doesn't even have to tick full out to be better.

Yeah, I wouldn't take the data from procodile to determine any proc chances, there was too many variables (including time volleying where it can't proc), but I do think it's useful in finding the ICD and after another round of raiding tonight still nothing below 50 seconds.

Tonight in Anub Heroic 25, I seemed to have some issues with misdirection.

My misdirection macro is the same as it has been forever:

#showtooltip Misdirection
/cast [target=focus,exists,nodead] Misdirection; [target=pet,exists,nodead] Misdirection

It seemed to miss. I don't think it was user error, I checked, my MD was on cooldown, and the tank was still my focus, but I was dead due to the add.

Has anyone else had problems with the new misdirection mechanics?

I have had indirect issues with new mechanics from tanks whining about no misD buff I haven't checked how they are showed in combatlog, yet.
However, seeing you have a MM spec, could the misD issues you experienced be related to unfortunate Wild Quiver procs? Or perhaps Piercing Shots, although I'm not sure Piercing Shots will consume a misD buff?