Hit rating - Page 21

alarge · 04/17/09, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Nooska

1: yes, they do often involve unequal gear numbers, but noone has ever said that overcapping hit was anything but a watse and lacking 2 hit rating was better than 6 over (Caveat: exception BM due to pet inheritance, better to be 7 over than 1 under).
I am aware of what you have argued, and I still oppose that point, you say that the "always choose hit" only applies to trivial cases and is incorrect in general. This is not true. Hit will always be the better stat IF you are not capped and IF the values are relatively equal all told. Your 32 agi v 30 hit isn't worth anything in item comparison, as hit never replaces agi, it replaces crit (or haste or ArP) - when gemming or enchanting it is a different matter, but then the values aren't equal either and it is a matter of course that the higher value will most often yield the better result.And btw, gear of the same ilvl have the same itemization points spent - it follows the ilvl, so you will always be advised to take the hit gear from the same ilvl until you are capped (or slightly over for BM)

2: neither a or c is anything the spreadsheet suggests - a is based on your current stats and you can't use the calcattributes to replace stats. If you leave the gemslto open and do so, you will get a result, but this is not a matter of the spreadsheet suggesting anything, thats a matter of you using the spreadsheet. C is especially a matter of using the spreadsheet, and not of it suggesting anything.
The only place the spreadsheet suggests anything is in the gear planner. This is the place the calculations are used to make suggestions, and this is what my previous response was directed at- that the way it does it will rarely make a suggestion to replace hit with anything else, unless the level of items is so great as to nor be factual for anyone that needs the spreadsheet to optimize. There is siply not enough difference in Naxx and Uld items for that case to ever be relevant (barring naxx10 -> Uld 25 HD or somesuch).

1) When you qualify as "IF not capped and IF values are relatively equal", you are restricting yourself to the trivial case. And I would argue that optimizing your gear involves more gemming and enchanting decisions than it does actual gear decisions. And, as I pointed out in an earlier post, hit and agi *are* partially interchangeable via gems and at least two enchants. It is rare that you can make a single gear choice in isolation. I almost always have to do some sort of regemming or enchanting every time I replace a piece of gear. And the majority of decisions get made in the vicinity of the hit cap, where questions of 32 agi vs. 30 effective hit are quite common. And most gearing mistakes I see are in this area.

2) This is a silly semantic argument. As Har pointed out, he meant "suggest" in the broader sense as in "analysis performed using the spreadsheet suggests...". The spreadsheet never actually *suggests* anything at all.

Nagisamuro · 04/17/09, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by Nooska

Your 32 agi v 30 hit isn't worth anything in item comparison, as hit never replaces agi, it replaces crit (or haste or ArP)... And btw, gear of the same ilvl have the same itemization points spent - it follows the ilvl, so you will always be advised to take the hit gear from the same ilvl until you are capped (or slightly over for BM)

[Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker]
[Hatestrike]

Both items are ilvl 200 epics. NSS has 32 hit rating, Hatestrike has 22. The rest of the itemization budget for each item is spent solely on stats of interest to hunters. If you are sitting at 231 hit rating, which one are you going to equip?

Nooska · 04/18/09, 8:49 AM

Originally Posted by Nagisamuro

[Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker]
[Hatestrike]

Both items are ilvl 200 epics. NSS has 32 hit rating, Hatestrike has 22. The rest of the itemization budget for each item is spent solely on stats of interest to hunters. If you are sitting at 231 hit rating, which one are you going to equip?

Lets see;

32 hit, 32 crit, 32 haste and 32 ArP
vs
25 agi, 39 sta, 22 hit, 27 crit, 76 ap?

Its a little hard to really get into the mindset as I would never be sitting at 231 hitrating to begin with, 1% miss is too easy to gear out of;

NSS gives me 32 hit and 0.7% crit - haste and ArP is irellevant mostly (in the sure, i'll take it, but I won't go for it)
HS gives me 22 hit, 101 ap, 0.55% crit, so I would be trading 10 hit and 0.15% crit for 101 ap - thats an easy choice - it would however result in regemming / chanting to get the last 10 hitrating.

It is no suprise that a random world drop epic is worse than a raid gained epic though - it is better itemized - just like t8 gear will be better itemized for the ilvl than t7 gear. I agree that ArP and Haste are of interest to hunters, but not anywhere near crit, hit and ap, so the wasted itemizaion points make NSS worse - that doesn't invalidate the point though;

But let me be more specific; Agility never replaces hit (or vice verse) on items of equal ilvl from the same type of source.

Find similar comparisons of raid lvl gear (ilvl 213+ to be sure its raid obtained) excluding pvp gear ofc and I'll concede the point. Though Mostly I have been talking about armor slots (but I have neglected to say that of course).

Har · 04/18/09, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Nagisamuro

[Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker]
[Hatestrike]

Both items are ilvl 200 epics. NSS has 32 hit rating, Hatestrike has 22. The rest of the itemization budget for each item is spent solely on stats of interest to hunters. If you are sitting at 231 hit rating, which one are you going to equip?

Simple question, simple answer. Whichever one would support the highest DPS configuration in the DPS spreadsheet.

noglen · 04/20/09, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by Nooska

It is no suprise that a random world drop epic is worse than a raid gained epic though - it is better itemized

But this is exactly the point.

Just because an item gets you closer to the hit cap, doesn't make it an upgrade. Some items are better itemised than others. And while most items with +hit are going to be better than items without it (assuming the +hit won't take you over the cap), its not always the case, which proves the original "GET HIT CAPPED" argument is wrong.

Tzelph · 05/14/09, 2:57 PM

I've done my best to look through this thread for an answer, but can't seem to find one.

On my hunter, I've been above hit cap by a significant margin, thanks to FA. I decided to see how often I'd miss if I moved those points into Careful Aim and it seems that my DPS has gone up. However, this makes it so that I'm a little less than 1.5% below hit cap. Personally I think it's worth it, especially seeing as my DPS has gone up and misses have been minimal.

I'm pretty sure I've made a good call, but I suppose what I want is confirmation that I'm not a complete fool. I figure between the likelihood of having a draenei in the raid and or getting even just one more piece of hit gear, I'll be all set.

Xaraphyne · 05/14/09, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tzelph

I've done my best to look through this thread for an answer, but can't seem to find one.

On my hunter, I've been above hit cap by a significant margin, thanks to FA. I decided to see how often I'd miss if I moved those points into Careful Aim and it seems that my DPS has gone up. However, this makes it so that I'm a little less than 1.5% below hit cap. Personally I think it's worth it, especially seeing as my DPS has gone up and misses have been minimal.

I'm pretty sure I've made a good call, but I suppose what I want is confirmation that I'm not a complete fool. I figure between the likelihood of having a draenei in the raid and or getting even just one more piece of hit gear, I'll be all set.

Your spec should have likely included Careful Aim in the first place; if you have to take Focused Aim, there are better places to take the points from.

That said, it all will depend on your gear options, namely if you have significantly higher ilvl gear without hit, but generally, capping hit will get you the most DPS per item budget stat, or, if you have no other option, per talent point spent.

In your case, I don't see why you can't cap through gems and enchants anyway, so it's a non-issue for you as it is for all the other hunters without extremely odd gear options.

luckylooter · 05/18/09, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Xaraphyne

Your spec should have likely included Careful Aim in the first place; if you have to take Focused Aim, there are better places to take the points from.

That said, it all will depend on your gear options, namely if you have significantly higher ilvl gear without hit, but generally, capping hit will get you the most DPS per item budget stat, or, if you have no other option, per talent point spent.

In your case, I don't see why you can't cap through gems and enchants anyway, so it's a non-issue for you as it is for all the other hunters without extremely odd gear options.

I currently have 3/3 in FA so that the hit cap i need to reach was 196 instead of 263. This helped significantly, which i was in less than desirable gear. Now i am almost to the 263 mark from exchanging for better ilvl gear, and will be able to move the points to other possibly better places. I dont think that gemming and enchanting for hit is the way to go because you sacrifice so much AP, or AGI and Crit depending on your spec. It was quite easy to get 196 hit from pretty much questing gear and some non-heroic instances.

Xaraphyne · 05/18/09, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by luckylooter

I currently have 3/3 in FA so that the hit cap i need to reach was 196 instead of 263. This helped significantly, which i was in less than desirable gear. Now i am almost to the 263 mark from exchanging for better ilvl gear, and will be able to move the points to other possibly better places. I dont think that gemming and enchanting for hit is the way to go because you sacrifice so much AP, or AGI and Crit depending on your spec. It was quite easy to get 196 hit from pretty much questing gear and some non-heroic instances.

The agility you lose from gemming/enchanting to cap generally doesn't compare to the DPS you lose from the talent points you're not spending elsewhere. Yes, when your gear is very poor, it's not unwise; but once you have at least a bit of Naxx gear, as 95% of the hunters who come here do, it becomes a non-issue. Honestly, I wouldn't worry that much anyway about min-maxing your DPS before you even step into Naxx, considering that you're just going to rake in gear with the amount that drops in there.

Pijn · 05/18/09, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by luckylooter

I currently have 3/3 in FA so that the hit cap i need to reach was 196 instead of 263. This helped significantly, which i was in less than desirable gear. Now i am almost to the 263 mark from exchanging for better ilvl gear, and will be able to move the points to other possibly better places. I dont think that gemming and enchanting for hit is the way to go because you sacrifice so much AP, or AGI and Crit depending on your spec. It was quite easy to get 196 hit from pretty much questing gear and some non-heroic instances.

A small note: 3/3 FA makes the hit cap 164 rating (5% hit)

Har · 05/20/09, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Xaraphyne

The agility you lose from gemming/enchanting to cap generally doesn't compare to the DPS you lose from the talent points you're not spending elsewhere.

Which talent points are these? If it's taken from hunting party, until your gear is good enough that 1% agility you're losing is greater than the 16 agility you can gem in place of 16 hit, it might actually be viable to include FA.

KraxisSingular · 05/20/09, 7:25 PM

We would need on the order of 1600 Agi pre talents to make Hunting Party worth more per point than Focused Aim. That's about 350 more than I have now. I suppose it might be possible at some point, but I doubt it.

Pijn · 05/21/09, 4:46 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

We would need on the order of 1600 Agi pre talents to make Hunting Party worth more per point than Focused Aim. That's about 350 more than I have now. I suppose it might be possible at some point, but I doubt it.

Raid buffed you will approach 2000 agility (Hunting Party 3% means 60 agility at this point).

Three talent points for 60 agility, or three talent points for 3% hit (~99 hit rating regardless if you are raid buffed or not). Looking at itemization, it might be a better choice to go for the 3/3 Focused Aim and gem for agility, opposed to going for 3/3 Hunting Party and gemming for hit rating.

Either way, in endgame Ulduar gear the 8% hit rating cap is easily reached through gear without gemming and 3/3 FA.

(If you mainly run Ulduar 10 and you are often the only possible source of Replenishment, go for Hunting Party naturally)

Boknora · 06/06/09, 3:42 AM

I dont think that a person with 2000 agility raid buffed will be below hit cap, so hunting party will give less than 60 agility. I would still spec into it for the replenishment and gem for hit. This would be better because then your pet will be hit capped as well, further increasing your dps.

Iru · 06/06/09, 5:22 AM

Hit from FA transfers to your pet since 3.1