The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 100

Lerastes · 02/23/09, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by Dropshot

Was wondering with the 6/14/51 spec, if dropping the 1 point in the Focused Fire talent and putting it into Aimed Shot helps out on dps overall? I know in some fights it will help out alot for when your on the move as an added instant, but has anyone switched the points an noticed that much of a difference?

This is what I did. That one point in FF is nice but I was actually dying on Sarth+3 because Multi-Shot would pull a Blaze or something while the tank was off on the other side of the area and Feign Death was down. Not being able to use it while moving was also a factor, especially on that fight.

It may be a DPS increase on certain fights, and while it's affected by Sniper Training, any DPS boost would more likely be from the extra utility from using Aimed Shot. Multi Shot DOES hit extra targets when there's extras to hit but, being uncontrollable, this can be a bad thing in a lot of fights (like my example above).

Mistax · 02/23/09, 3:06 PM

After reading through this thread and multiple hour spent on the spreadsheet to calculate best possible raid performance for me with our current setup my results have been fairly disappointing.

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish That's a WWS of our patchwerk kill about 2 weeks ago.

My talent build at the time was the normal 6/14/51 with same gear set i am using right now.
Major Glyphs were Aspect of the Hawk/Steady Shot/and Serpent Sting.
Normal Shot rotation - Rapid Fire - KS - ES - Multi - SpS - SS
On a LnL Proc - ES - SS/Multi/Hunter Mark or Sps( if they need to be refreshed) - ES - SS - ES

I know my raid group patchwerk is probably slower than the average Patchwerk kill by 30 seconds and that our raid isn't completely stellar on having the maximum possible of buffs for dps. But i was wondering if there is anything i could do to greatly improve my dps to where it should at least be boarder lining. In comparison other hunter of equal gear are pulling the dps where i believe i should be able to put out. That area is around 5.5k-6k DPS.

Rivkah · 02/23/09, 3:54 PM

Mistax, just looking at your report I see a few potential issues. First of all, it looks like you only used Kill Command once? Is that not incorporated into your shot macros? On a 3 minute fight it should have been used 3 times.

In terms of rapid fire, I've always preferred to pop it after going through my cooldown shots and serpent sting, rather than when those cooldowns are up. Since the bulk of the benefit in rapid fire comes from faster steady shots and autoshot, there doesn't seem any good reason to use it when your next shot isn't intended to be a steady shot. That's probably a fairly minor issue but it probably does affect your dps a little.

Your pet dmg also seems low. He did less than 800dps. My pet is a raptor, but he usually is above 1k dps on Patchwerk on fights that aren't significantly shorter than yours. Perhaps that's just because of less kill commands.

Were you and your pet using consumables? I try to use kibler's bits on most fights since buzzard meat tends to be cheap and easy to farm and has the exact same stats as the more expensive pet snacks from the current expansion.

It also looks like you only used kill shot once- I think it's unlikely that on a fight over 3 minutes long that the boss was at 20% or below for no more than 15 seconds, so you lost a little potential damage there.

With my raid Patchwerk kill speeds (which are similar to yours) the best I think I've been able to do is 5.3k dps but it varies a lot on LnL procs (if you're not trap dancing that's a total crapshoot), buffs and other factors. So I think you can improve some but I don't think you're all that far off.

Mistax · 02/23/09, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

Mistax, just looking at your report I see a few potential issues. First of all, it looks like you only used Kill Command once? Is that not incorporated into your shot macros? On a 3 minute fight it should have been used 3 times.

In terms of rapid fire, I've always preferred to pop it after going through my cooldown shots and serpent sting, rather than when those cooldowns are up. Since the bulk of the benefit in rapid fire comes from faster steady shots and autoshot, there doesn't seem any good reason to use it when your next shot isn't intended to be a steady shot. That's probably a fairly minor issue but it probably does affect your dps a little.

Your pet dmg also seems low. He did less than 800dps. My pet is a raptor, but he usually is above 1k dps on Patchwerk on fights that aren't significantly shorter than yours. Perhaps that's just because of less kill commands.

Were you and your pet using consumables? I try to use kibler's bits on most fights since buzzard meat tends to be cheap and easy to farm and has the exact same stats as the more expensive pet snacks from the current expansion.

It also looks like you only used kill shot once- I think it's unlikely that on a fight over 3 minutes long that the boss was at 20% or below for no more than 15 seconds, so you lost a little potential damage there.

With my raid Patchwerk kill speeds (which are similar to yours) the best I think I've been able to do is 5.3k dps but it varies a lot on LnL procs (if you're not trap dancing that's a total crapshoot), buffs and other factors. So I think you can improve some but I don't think you're all that far off.

Yeah I've fixed the kill command thing now since I switched back to a raptor. Kill command is bind to savage rend so both go off at the same time to help savage rend proc. On the note of consumables none of that was used beside a fish feast. Normally it would be Int/Agi Elixir and the normal pet food. I usually save my rapid fire and call of the wild until after lust so i have another cooldown to pop.

alienangel · 02/23/09, 4:28 PM

I'm fairly sure you want to be using CotW during Bloodlust, not Rapid Fire, at the least because the former increases your pet's attack speed while the latter doesn't.

I generally use all three at once, which may not be optimal.

Ankan · 02/23/09, 10:02 PM

So I changed to 6/14/51 from 1/19/51 in order to try it out since I have decent gear and felt it would increase my dps, but while doing some raiding today I felt a bit uncomfortable with it due to the lack of aimed shot which hampered my firing while moving.

I presume its got to do with my rotation, so I was wondering in 6/14/51 do I replace Aimed Shot with Multi Shot in single target dps or is there no need to include Multi shot unless there are multiple mobs? So what I am asking is should I just spam Steady Shot with Serp Sting up all the time and using ES whenever its up and looking for LnL procs. Thanks for any advice.

Cranch · 02/23/09, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ankan

so I was wondering in 6/14/51 do I replace Aimed Shot with Multi Shot in single target dps or is there no need to include Multi shot unless there are multiple mobs? So what I am asking is should I just spam Steady Shot with Serp Sting up all the time and using ES whenever its up and looking for LnL procs.

Since Multi-Shot does more damage than Steady Shot, even for single targets, if your focus is damage, then yes, Multi-Shot whenever you can. About the only reason not to do so is if you do not want to accidentally pull aggro, e.g., on Sartharion adds.

Sulik · 02/24/09, 12:18 AM

Doesn't the .5 from multi add up though? Ex: Tougher to sqeeze in your third SS between ES CD.... results in loss of total ES during a fight.. Server lag is a very real thing.

Also let's say you have firmly decided to forsake multi-Shot for the moment and pick up Aimed. Assuming higher end gear, would anyone recommend going 5/15/51?

Cilithan · 02/24/09, 5:08 AM

Exciting new rumours regarding SV Hunters on MMO-Champion.

Survival
Skills
Disengage cooldown increased to 30 secs. (Previously was 25 secs)

Talents
Hunting Party (Tier 10) is now a 3 point talent, increasing agility by 1/2/3% and your Arcane Shot, Explosive Shot and Steady Shot critical strikes have a 33/66/100% chance to grant up to 10 party or raid members mana regeneration equal to 0.25% of the maximum mana per second. Lasts for 15 sec.
Trap Mastery moved from Tier 9 to Tier 2 and is now a 3 point talent. Increases the duration of Frost and Freezing trap by 10/20/30%, Periodic damage of Immolation and Explosive trap by 10/20/30%, and number of snakes summoned by Snake Trap by 30%. (Previously was just 1 point)
*New Talent* Black Arrow (Tier 9) - Fires a Black Arrow at the target, increasing all damage done by you to the target by 6% and dealing [ 10% of RAP + 785 ] Shadow damage over 15 sec. Costs 6% base mana. 5-35 yard range. Instant Cast. 30 sec cooldown.
Sniper Training (Tier 9) has been changed to increase the critical strike chance of your Kill Shot ability by 5/10/15%, and while standing still for 6 sec., you gain Sniper Training increasing the damage done by your Steady Shot, Aimed Shot, Black Arrow and Explosive Shot by 2/4/6% Lasts 15 sec. (Previously increased damage and critical strike chance based on your range to the target)
Wyvern Sting (Tier 7) now lasts 30 sec on the target. (Previously lasted 12 sec)
T.N.T. (Tier 4) now increases the damage done by your Explosive Shot, Explosive Trap and Immolation Trap by 2%. (Previously increased critical strike chance of explosive shot and and gave it a chance to stun the target)
Lock and Load (Tier 4) now has a 33/66/100% chance to proc off Freezing Shot, Freezing Trap, and Frost Trap, and a 3/7/10% chance to proc off the periodic damage of Immolation Trap and Black Arrow. (Previously worked on all traps and included serpent sting)
Improved Wing Clip has been removed from the game.

So we'll be using a new shot it seems, try to stand still for ST, spend three points in Hunting Party regardless and Wyvern has become decent PvE CC? So far I like the news.

eviln1 · 02/24/09, 5:23 AM

Originally Posted by Sulik

Doesn't the .5 from multi add up though? Ex: Tougher to sqeeze in your third SS between ES CD.... results in loss of total ES during a fight.. Server lag is a very real thing.

Doesn't matter : MS uses a GCD. You're not adding an extra shot, just replacing a SS by MS.

Also let's say you have firmly decided to forsake multi-Shot for the moment and pick up Aimed. Assuming higher end gear, would anyone recommend going 5/15/51?

A standard hunter doing 3k5 - 4k dps (without the pet) would lose 35-40 DPS by dropping one point out of Focused Fire; wich roughly amounts to the DPS gained by using Aimed Shot over MS. (you'd better check that with the spreadsheet for your character though). However, Focused Fire is less "screwing-up sensitive" since it's a passive bonus.

dssurge · 02/24/09, 5:28 AM

I'm really skeptical on how well Survival DPS is going to function come 3.1

As far as I can tell, compared to now, we'll be able to:

- Roll an Immolation trap on a target, completely passively
- Maintain a 15-on-15-off DoT (which I'm personally not impressed by, damage wise, secondary effect is golden though)
- Keep Serpent Sting rolling for the purposes of Noxious Stings (will this even be worth it anymore?)
- Stay haste capped to keep perfect 1.5 second globals
- Continue to keep Explosive and Aimed/Multi on CD

Even if our shot priority list doesn't change that much, this skill rotation got a little chunkier with Black Arrow.

This also raises a bunch of questions regarding Noxious Stings, and the possibility of being able to totally drop the Wyvern > NS line from talent builds. I'm pretty sure it will be possible to get more than 3% damage out of some other options, and as far as I can tell, unless they make Serpent Sting do more impressive damage, a single Steady shot can do comparable damage.

Trap Dancing is also completely dead with the changes to LnL, I guess it wasn't intended after all...

I sure hope the list of changes isn't even remotely finalized.

Arkad · 02/24/09, 5:39 AM

@Cilithan:

I don't know actually. Don't know if I like it or not. I mean... I know it's just the initial confusion overwhelming me (like the first time running around in Dalaran and crying for my mom, cuz I got lost), but there's just SO MUCH new stuff somehow!

I'll adopt new/varied Rotations quite easily, for sure. But basic premisses, like glyphing, become really frustrating right now while I'm playing it out in my head.

My main concern is if I'll be running around with (the NEW) AS-Glyph instead of SS-Glyph (I don't know math, pl0x! At least not at the moment, it's too early over here...), and with Immo-Glyph instead of Serpent-Glyph (most certanly as it seems, because Immo-Trap with Trap Mastery + T.N.T + ES is a "don't ask! It's awesome!"-case). Maybe spec out of IAotH a little and add the IAotH glyph back again?

So I'll be fighting like:

*Run in*
*Mark my Target*
*Hurl in an Immolation Trap*
*ES that monstar!*
*Blackarrow his Bum!*
*Fling in a Serpent Sting*
*Aim.... aiiiim.... ah no, it's instant I know... Aimed Shot*
*Have I steadied yet? No wai! Steady Shoot him!*
*Push Button labled "TRINKITZ!"*
*What? Forgot where my ES Button is? ES!*
etc.

My head hurts.

[Edit]: Typos fixed, hopefully. Clarified that I mean the NEW Aimed Shot Glyph (2 sec reduced CD instead of 20% reduced cost)

Woodent · 02/24/09, 5:52 AM

Originally Posted by Arkad

@Cilithan:

So I'll be fighting like:

*Run in*
*Mark my Target*
*Hurl in an Immolation Trap*
*ES that monstar!*
*Blackarrow his Bum!*
*Fling in a Serpent Sting*
*Aim.... aiiiim.... ah no, it's instant I know... Aimed Shot*
*Have I steadied yet? No wai! Steady Shoot him!*
*Push Button labled "TRINKITZ!"*
*What? Forgot where my ES Button is? ES!*
etc.

My head hurts.

and that is sooo cooool! I have always adored Surv speс as the most complicated=challenging=interesting one, especially in BC, when it was, like, anti-BM spec as far as complexity is concerned. New things in 3.1, unless followed by some nerfs, give tons of potential for additional damage. We just have to try and work hard to realise that potential. Seems fair to me. Straightforward buffs to figures are boring.

kthreev · 02/24/09, 5:56 AM

I'm thinking this 5/15/51 is going to be the top dps spec come 3.1.

The change to the Aimed shot glyph makes it superior to multi-shot. I'm assuming the decreased cooldown would be better than the 1% damage boost from Focus Fire, but a spreadsheet test will be required to know for sure. Also, this spec assumes Aimed shot glyph would be better than steady shot glyph.

I'm guessing the new priority list will look something like this:

Traplauncher --> Immolation trap --> Black Arrow --> Explosive Shot --> Aimed Shot --> Serpent Sting --> Steady Shot

It may be better to start off fights with black arrow/explosive shot/aimed shot before throwing up an immolation trap, just to get those cooldowns started earlier.

Arkad · 02/24/09, 6:00 AM

Originally Posted by Woodent

and that is sooo cooool! I have always adored Surv speс as the most complicated=challenging=interesting one, especially in BC, when it was, like, anti-BM spec as far as complexity is concerned. New things in 3.1, unless followed by some nerfs, give tons of potential for additional damage. We just have to try and work hard to realise that potential. Seems fair to me. Straightforward buffs to figures are boring.

No worries. I am with you there. I like the complexity a lot (and I'm also an anti-BM since Vanilla... who wants to be a Zoo keeper anyways?

) All I'm saying is that all the news concerning SV are going Swirly-Ball in my head. I like the challenge to grasp it eventually and master it (again, anew), but I also want to talk to fellow hunters about my confusion.
To get it more straight:

I'm really bad at maths, could anyone figure out if a new AS-Glyph would be better (DPS-wise) than a Steady-Glyph? Serpent-Glyph, Noxious Stings etc. can be left out of the picture. Just the 2 sec CD reduce vs. 10% SS-Dmg.

And to add something constructive:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...0&version=9614

That's the Spec/Glyphs I would go for atm. Ofc there will be changes, but that is how I feel it's right (for me) right now. The 2 Points in Focused Aim can be swapped of course. I just have 6% Hit so there are the 2 missing percent

[Edit]: Just saw kthreevs post. Almost forgot about WyvernStings new CC vaiability. I guess there will be parting groups of CC-oriented, DPS-oriented and Replenishment-oriented SV Hunters then... and ofcourse the blends. Interesting.