The point is that Trap Master is not adding a lot of DPS - if BA is 3% of total damage, than trap mastery is an additional 0.3% damage, which is pretty poor for 3 talent points.
Thus, Hawk Eye over Trap Mastery is a barely a DPS loss even on a Patchwerk type boss, and likely to be a practical DPS upgrade on some of the add/movement fights.
If BA did 3% total damage, ONE point in TM would give you .3% - not all three like you said. Assuming BA was only 3% of your damage, 3 points in TM would give you .9% more damage. But once again, this is assuming BA is only 3%, which it obviously should be higher if you're using it with the priority that you should.
BA, as previously stated, does 5.5 ~ 6k damage when paired with TM. Without TM, it would do about 4600. 6000 - 4600 = 1400 damage, spread over 24 seconds, equals roughly 59 DPS; ~20 DPS per talent point. This is actually very very close to the per-point equivalent in IAotH, but IAotH requires that you be still while it's active.
In my opinion, TM is very much so greater than HE.
There have been some major bugs with pet skills turning themselves off and on without user intervention since 3.0 came out. I'm not sure if they were fixed in 3.1 but I had this issue as well so it's good to doublecheck periodically if you notice your damage is low. I had a Naxx a few months ago where my pet's claw just turned off for no reason, and my first day raiding in Ulduar my wolf's bite was also not turned on (it may have gotten somehow disabled while leveling it prior to 3.1 though so that's why I can't say if it's still broken)
It's still broken. I check my pets before every fight. Summong them and zoning still seems to turn off random abilities every once in a while.
If BA did 3% total damage, ONE point in TM would give you .3% - not all three like you said. Assuming BA was only 3% of your damage, 3 points in TM would give you .9% more damage. But once again, this is assuming BA i sonly 3%, which it obviously should be higher if you're using it with the priority that you should.
BA, as previously stated, does 5.5 ~ 6k damage when paired with TM. Without TM, it would do about 4600. 6000 - 4600 = 1400 damage, spread over 24 seconds, equal roughly 59 DPS; 19.3 DPS per talent point. This is actually very very close to the per-point equivalent in IAotH, but IAotH requires that you be still while it's active.
In my opinion, TM is very much so greater than HE.
You are still looking at this completely from a spreadsheet point of view. While I completely agree with the stand still vs moving arguement if the point for point is the same rests on any dot > Imp AotH. The whole argument of Hawk Eye over TM is based on the high mobility needed and out-ranging of the last 3 bosses of Uldular. Please skim through pages 90-99 to see the debate.
There have been some major bugs with pet skills turning themselves off and on without user intervention since 3.0 came out. I'm not sure if they were fixed in 3.1 but I had this issue as well so it's good to doublecheck periodically if you notice your damage is low. I had a Naxx a few months ago where my pet's claw just turned off for no reason, and my first day raiding in Ulduar my wolf's bite was also not turned on (it may have gotten somehow disabled while leveling it prior to 3.1 though so that's why I can't say if it's still broken)
I personally just use a macro to regulate every so often. I haven't seen a situation where having this macro tampered with something I wanted to do, it's been pretty smoothe.
You are still looking at this completely from a spreadsheet point of view. While I completely agree with the stand still vs moving arguement if the point for point is the same rests on any dot > Imp AotH. The whole argument of Hawk Eye over TM is based on the high mobility needed and out-ranging of the last 3 bosses of Uldular. Please skim through pages 90-99 to see the debate.
I have skimmed through the debate. When I posted, I was more 1) correcting someone who said it was 10% of an already low value (which, of course, it's 30% of a higher value), and 2) giving a napkin-math DPS number to throw out there.
Obviously if you're on adds on Yogg and you need to run across the place to shoot the tenticles, and your BA doesn't fully tic, then TM is obviously a decrease. If anything, go dual-spec and go hawk-eye on fights when you are actually on adds on Yogg.
Blue confirmed that Explosive Shot crits will now proc GffT as of yesterday.
As of yesterday I still found that my wolf with me running 2/2 GftT was outdps'ing the other hunter's wolf in our raid (with 1/2 GftT) by between 60-150+ dps per fight on basically every fight. This was true whether a standstill fight like Ignis or a movement fight. I don't know if this is due to explosive not proc'ing or a difference in actual base focus regen vs perceived base focus regen (see spreadsheet thread), but it was very noticeable.
Ignis, as an example. Spec's were almost identical except I use HE over TM and 2 points in GftT, 1 in HP. 1 second difference in dps time, in favor of my wolf.
1101 dps from my wolf, with a split of 56.5% melee, 43.5% bite.
953.7 dps from the other wolf, 61.3% melee, 38.75% bite
OK, so before I post anything, I want to point out a few things about what I've modeled:
1) This isn't doing ANYTHING with napkin math (if you want that, you'll have to calculate that on your own)
2) This has nothing to do with the debate on trap mastery, hawk eye, Imp Stings, or Imp Aspect of the Hawk
3) The conclusions drawn were based on 0 latency, maximized haste for a 1.5s Steady, and the ability of a machine to hammer out the perfect rotation
4) All data was based on a 6 minute fight for standardization purposes
NOTE: If you want me to post the excel formats for this, I can but will hold off on those for right now.
Rotation #5 (ES - SrS - BA - AS/MS): 60+1 ES, 30 AS/MS, 18 SrS (glyphed), 15 BA (3/3 Resourcefulness), 117 SS; rotation recyles every 168s
Conclusions: Prioritizing Serpent Sting after Explosive Shot will net you more damage overall as it allows for a near 100% updatime on the sting. The problem with this, though, is that it isn't so much a rotation as it is a prioritization system that is absolutely chaotic. As I noted in "rotations" #4 and #5, it doesn't recycle until almost 3 minutes into a fight. Yes, you're getting in more stings which means more damage done AND you're benefiting from Noxious Stings on everything done beyond the initial Explosive Shot. But in order to maximize this, you'd have to be running several add-ons and have to be staring at the screen non-stop to make sure that you fired off everything when you could which can take away focus from the actual encounter.
Assuming the armory is current, uou have more AP than the other hunter.
Your pet did more because of the higher AP value you transfer to your wolf.
No sir, if you read the report it clearly shows that their pet did more Bite damage. This is an indicator that there was more available focus to allow for more frequent pet specials over the other hunter. Though AP will increase pet damage, in this case, AP was not the major factor in the damage disparity.
Assuming the armory is current, uou have more AP than the other hunter.
Your pet did more because of the higher AP value you transfer to your wolf.
I'm not sure what you're looking at, but according to the armory today she has ~200 more AP than me. Also ~2% more crit. Which both mean that her pet should do more damage (more raw AP and more crit = more GftT). Even if the situation was reversed, a difference in hunter AP of 200 isn't going to account for 150 dps from the bet. My pet did more damage because it had the focus to bite more often, whereas hers did not.
Edit: And for further (anecdotal) comparison, last week on Ignis I ran with 1/2 GftT and my pet did ~850dps. I'd link that log but I also had growl on by mistake so the data is tainted some. Regardless, I don't think that growl every 20 seconds starves enough focus on its own to account for that significant of a pet dps change.
Blue confirmed that Explosive Shot crits will now proc GffT as of yesterday.
Where is this post? I saw them say they fixed thrill of the hunt proccing off of explosive shot but nothing specific to GftT.
I checked my logs from Ulduar last night and I can't find any indication in my logs that go for the throat is proccing off of explosive shot crits. I will check again after tonight's raid to see if maybe it didn't hit till this morning.
Hopefully it is fixed, because I'd really rather not temporarily redo my spec to get around the bug, but if it won't be fixed for at least a few weeks I'll definitely need to find a point to scavenge (I guess aimed shot or hunting party).
OK, so before I post anything, I want to point out a few things about what I've modeled:
1) This isn't doing ANYTHING with napkin math (if you want that, you'll have to calculate that on your own)
2) This has nothing to do with the debate on trap mastery, hawk eye, Imp Stings, or Imp Aspect of the Hawk
3) The conclusions drawn were based on 0 latency, maximized haste for a 1.5s Steady, and the ability of a machine to hammer out the perfect rotation
4) All data was based on a 6 minute fight for standardization purposes
NOTE: If you want me to post the excel formats for this, I can but will hold off on those for right now.
Rotation #5 (ES - SrS - BA - AS/MS): 60+1 ES, 30 AS/MS, 18 SrS (glyphed), 15 BA (3/3 Resourcefulness), 117 SS; rotation recyles every 168s
Conclusions: Prioritizing Serpent Sting after Explosive Shot will net you more damage overall as it allows for a near 100% updatime on the sting. The problem with this, though, is that it isn't so much a rotation as it is a prioritization system that is absolutely chaotic. As I noted in "rotations" #4 and #5, it doesn't recycle until almost 3 minutes into a fight. Yes, you're getting in more stings which means more damage done AND you're benefiting from Noxious Stings on everything done beyond the initial Explosive Shot. But in order to maximize this, you'd have to be running several add-ons and have to be staring at the screen non-stop to make sure that you fired off everything when you could which can take away focus from the actual encounter.
I am not sure why rotation 4 gives you one less shot overall then the other rotations. Were you delaying something to keep the priority?
Apart from that, I believe when we make statements about rotations or priorities we should probably add a reason for the calculation. Because it will be a difference if you take a certain timespan and see how many shots can fit in it and what priority will be useful for that timespan, OR if on the other hand you say, the time spent shooting is totally unclear (which is actually the case), you will choose a different rotation to be sure you have used the best shots first and only the less useful shots are left out if the fight ends abruptly.
As a simple example, lets leave out dots. You have 5 instant damaging shots. They do 1,2,3,4,5 damage.
If you now say you will check a timespan of 5 gcd's, the priority is totally irrelevant for the result and you can shoot 1,2,3,4,5, because you will always get the total damage of 15.
But if you say the timeframe is unclear, it could be 2 gcd's, 3 or 4. Then the priority is obviously 5,4,3,2,1.
Add in the dots again, and its obvious, that if you use a fixed timespan for your calculation which lets the dots fully tick and does not exactly cut out the best shot at the end, it will be better to use the dots first, because their boni will increase the damage of the other shots. But if that means that at the abrupt end of a fight your last shot was a Serpent Sting instead of lets say an Aimed Shot, you will lose damage.
In short, to have the best priority system, you need to know the exact fight length. Since this is an information you cant get, its probably still best to try and use the shots with the most damage per gcd first.
I need to do more testing, but for now it looks to me like pulling a point from Hunting Party to go into GftT is a very valid investment.
That depends entirely on your crit chance, your stats will increase while progressing in ulduar picking up gear, so at this point in time for your gear level maybe, but alot of the people posting in the max dps post via spreadsheet that they have seen crit chances of over 50% on a lvl 83 boss without master technician, this obviously was BiS gear. Then the point can be moved back from GftT to hunting party for more agility which agian gives more crit. i perosnally think around 60% crit is more than enough to feed your GftT.
Basically im trying to say even if this is the better dps option atm there will come a time when gear has been replaced better to suite 1 point in GftT.
I will run tests on your theory soon, im currently doing a graphics exam in college so i can do so at this moment in time.
Maybe smarter people then me can run the math, but my experience, at least in 10 man Ulduar the last couple nights, my DPS was slightly higher then last week with 2/2 GftT and 2/3 Noxious Stings. I don't even miss that 1% with SrS up.
Maybe smarter people then me can run the math, but my experience, at least in 10 man Ulduar the last couple nights, my DPS was slightly higher then last week with 2/2 GftT and 2/3 Noxious Stings. I don't even miss that 1% with SrS up.
It is entirely based on your stats. Your gear may warrant 2/2 GftT if your pet is being focus starved. An easy way to tell is look at the end of run report your guild publishes (whichever service they use) and see if your pet is no where near what a spreadsheet puts them at. For instance if the spreadsheet says the pet should be doing 1100 dps and it's only doing 800, there is a good chance he is being focus starved. For a very long time 1/2 GftT gave pets infinite amount of focus, but either Blizz has an error that needs to be hotfixed (explosive not proccing it) or we have to change the way the spreadsheets model this effect to choose the best way to allocate points. There may be better talents to pull from then Noxious Stings.
I noticed the same dps increase of about 200 after swapping a point out of nox into GftT, was more than worth it. I could not bring myself to take it out of HP, It is a must for keeping replen on the raid to have 2 points in HP. That is of course based on a rotation that puts ES> AS/MS> BA> SrS> SS.
I would prefer ES procing it again and being able to go back to 1. :P
Yeah, ES now procs TotH for (40% manacost)/3 each tick, but still doesnt proc anything else apparently, please someone from US realms bring up a new blue post about it!
With the idea of people moving talent points from the survival tree alot of people have either chosen HP or NS to move across, someone even suggested master technician at some point i believe.
However im considering moving the point from expose weakness and only leaving one in there, currently it may not be possible but at a later gear level towards 3.1 and onwards BiS then it may be worth considering. I will post results my findings tommorow as i don't raid until then.
I'm pulling points from Hunting Party and probably TotH after that (I might be forced to spec FA soon). Mana is no problem at all in a boss fight if there are no ridiculous amounts of small adds without JoW so you can get rid of at least 1 point imho.
MT is quite a lot of dps according to the spreadsheet, and so is NS while 3/3 Toth does nothing most of the time.
We ran clean up in NAXX 25 last night, and I was noticing my severe lack od LnL procs. It got to the point where it was painfully obvious something was wrong. I re-apply Black Arrow whenever availiable, so it's not just a mental lapse on my part. I was talking with the other hunters in the raid, and my fellow class leader sent me this from WWS this morning
Total shots:
Delvthar
Total of Explosive Shots = 929
Auto shot = 1245
Steady Shot = 626
Kill Shot = 23
Lock and Load procs = 103
Coach <---- Me
Total of Explosive Shot = 786
Auto shot = 921
Steady Shot = 422
Kill Shot = 19
Lock and Load procs = 44
Now the only glaring difference I see between us the amount of haste Delvthar has
So I guess my question is that, would that much haste cause a fairly comparable skilled and geared hunter get double the amount of LnL procs? or am I just unlucky???
04/23/09, 5:22 PM
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