Well i am more interested in the fact you had multiple LnL procs from one explosive trap ticking on multiple mobs, since that is what you claimed in your post earlier. Whether the application of the trap procs LnL 100% or not, getting multiple LnL procs after the application due to mobs standing in the Explosive Trap AoE would be insane of course. I would test this myself, but my two specs are MM and BM.
I just went and had a mess about and it definitely procs 100% off explosive but i let the mob bash away on me till LnL faded and the trap went off again and got nothing. Not exactly conclusive but yeah.
while ont he subject of trap dancing, my traps used to trigger LnL all the time, now it barely does. Traps I was using in the past were Frost trap or Immo.
while ont he subject of trap dancing, my traps used to trigger LnL all the time, now it barely does. Traps I was using in the past were Frost trap or Immo.
Are you sure? I see immo trap showing 10% fully talented.
You have a 100% chance when you trap a target with Freezing Trap, Freezing Arrow or Frost Trap and a 10% chance when you deal periodic damage with your Immolation Trap or Black Arrow to cause your next 2 Arcane Shot or Explosive Shot spells to trigger no cooldown, cost no mana and consume no ammo.
Unfortunately, no word in there about explosive, which is why the discussion.
Yah Running OS when I can. Only seen the sniper helm once, rolled 97 and lost. Between that and the fury of the five flights, I will continue to run it.
Raid buffs - I never paid it much mind before but I have been lately. Pally buffs are there, Sunders may be down, as our guild tanks are not warriors (well our main guys) and we don't have too many dps warriors to boot, so a good point. Enh shammy's also missing as far as I can remember.
Cooldowns - I used to pop Rapid Fire at the start of any fight and as soon as it comes up again. Now I will be honest I try to save it for Heroism pops, but that may hurt me as well. Food for thought. As for CotW, I may need to examine how I am using it.
Haste potions - This is a good point. I had a couple that I tried a bit ago, but they only last a few seconds so I dismissed them. Which do you suggest? Or do they all expire quickly?
Fights are generally quick. Our guild on the whole does good DPS, with 2 mages clearing 5k routinely, and a few others who are routinely mid 4000's
Sunders are huge. They rank right under BoM as the biggest increase to physical dps. If you don't have a warrior tank, make sure your dps tanks are sundering. If you don't have warriors at all, have a rogue keep up expose armor. They'll hate it, but it will be an overall dps boost to the raid (especially in 25s where it will benefit many people). Somewhere in these forums is a list of raid buffs and who gives them. You should make sure that you have a source for each of the buffs -- especially those that impact hunters.
You shouldn't try to stack Rapid Fire with Heroism. That will push you past the haste cap and "waste" some of the haste. Haste potions are basically a bit like Rapid Fire or Heroism -- a short-duration haste buff. Better than nothing, and for most fights, you won't need your potion CD for anything else, so might as well use it for haste.
I find your treatise on frost trap to be very interesting. I wonder if you could conduct a breakdown via a timeline to show exactly what you would be doing for a frost trap and black arrow comparison. I'm having a hard time understanding where you are getting the damage increase/decrease from.
Thanks.
It wasn't meant to be a treatise >.>
As for a timeline, I was just trying to model what you should normally be doing vs what happens with an LnL proc.
Normally you'd (at least in this assumed convenient time segment):
fire BA
fire ES because it came off cooldown
fire 2 steady shots back to back because all other shots are on cooldown
In the frost trap scenario you'd:
drop frost trap (get LnL proc)
fire ES because it came off cooldown
wait 0.5
fire ES
wait 0.5
fire ES
Now, neither of those scenarios are exact because other shots coming off cooldowns change things, but those are what I tried to model
I'm also still not satisfied with the "damage added to BA because of the chance it might proc LnL" math in the previous post, since it's not taking into account everything about LnL either, so maybe that should be taken out again. However we're by now approaching a situation in which it would be better to customise simcraft to drop traps instead of firing BA and do a full simulation to see which method nets higher DPS, since it's all pretty convoluted.
Anyone familiar with running simcraft locally want to take a shot at it?
Sunders are huge. They rank right under BoM as the biggest increase to physical dps. If you don't have a warrior tank, make sure your dps tanks are sundering. If you don't have warriors at all, have a rogue keep up expose armor. They'll hate it, but it will be an overall dps boost to the raid (especially in 25s where it will benefit many people). Somewhere in these forums is a list of raid buffs and who gives them. You should make sure that you have a source for each of the buffs -- especially those that impact hunters.
You shouldn't try to stack Rapid Fire with Heroism. That will push you past the haste cap and "waste" some of the haste. Haste potions are basically a bit like Rapid Fire or Heroism -- a short-duration haste buff. Better than nothing, and for most fights, you won't need your potion CD for anything else, so might as well use it for haste.
I've been pondering the benefits of using the 200 crit/200 spell power potion instead of the haste potion. To me it sounds like a better deal. However, I've not tested this yet.
I've been pondering the benefits of using the 200 crit/200 spell power potion instead of the haste potion. To me it sounds like a better deal. However, I've not tested this yet.
So you need 200 crit to be better than 500 haste, which means you need 1 crit to be better than 2.5 haste. That sounds highly unlikely even by intuition, and looking at the stats on the spreadsheet, it agrees (1 crit = 0.948 dps to 1 haste = 0.575 dps, so 1 crit ~ 1.65 haste).
Sunders are huge. They rank right under BoM as the biggest increase to physical dps. If you don't have a warrior tank, make sure your dps tanks are sundering. If you don't have warriors at all, have a rogue keep up expose armor. They'll hate it, but it will be an overall dps boost to the raid (especially in 25s where it will benefit many people). Somewhere in these forums is a list of raid buffs and who gives them. You should make sure that you have a source for each of the buffs -- especially those that impact hunters.
You shouldn't try to stack Rapid Fire with Heroism. That will push you past the haste cap and "waste" some of the haste. Haste potions are basically a bit like Rapid Fire or Heroism -- a short-duration haste buff. Better than nothing, and for most fights, you won't need your potion CD for anything else, so might as well use it for haste.
This tool is fantastic for seeing what buffs all classes and specs bring to the raid; not sure if it was what you were referring to but posting in case.
It seems that explosive trap triggers lock and load.
Do you think using it instead of black arrow can increase your DPS? I would like to see some math on that, whether LnL proc every 24 seconds will add more than blackarrow damage + 6% dps over 15 seconds + rare LnL procs from black arrow.
Well i am more interested in the fact you had multiple LnL procs from one explosive trap ticking on multiple mobs, since that is what you claimed in your post earlier. Whether the application of the trap procs LnL 100% or not, getting multiple LnL procs after the application due to mobs standing in the Explosive Trap AoE would be insane of course. I would test this myself, but my two specs are MM and BM.
For the record, I'm the one who made the comment about Explosive Trap and multiple mobs. I had really forgotten about the post until I came back to this thread. I was operating under the assumption that Explosive Trap was operating the same way Immolation Trap was. Hell, as was pointed out by tooltip links, Explosive Trap is not supposed to trigger LnL at all.
But, after testing it more tonight, specifically Auriaya's swarms, and the worm packs en route to Hodir, I am pretty certain that Explosive Trap does not have a periodic chance to proc. I never saw a LnL refresh while clearing tonight.
But if it is a 100% LnL proc on trap triggering, perhaps we're back to the trap-dancing days.
Edit: Though on second thought, this would now conflict even more with the current version of Sniper Training. Perhaps merely on fights where there are reliable adds spawning.
Edit: Though on second thought, this would now conflict even more with the current version of Sniper Training. Perhaps merely on fights where there are reliable adds spawning.
But since Sniper Training isn't ranged based you can basically stand just out of melee to shoot and move into melee to trap. Should work nicely. I'm also curious about the dps benefits. Quick napkin math seems like it's a dps increase though.
Having seen the comments here regarding Explosive Trap, I tried this out on a Naxx run last night and I can confirm that Explosive Trap procced LnL 100% of the time on activation, but I never saw an activation on ticks of damage.
Now, the question is, would this be an increase in DPS over using Black Arrow. Using the spreadsheet, my current theoretical max DPS is 6501, using standard shot priority (Kill > Explosive > Black > Serpent > Aimed > Steady). Spreadsheet calculates an average time between LnL procs from Black Arrow of 101 seconds, which seems reasonable - we've all had those fights where it takes forever to get LnL procs.
Removing Black Arrow from my shot rotation gives a theoretical DPS of 5998, with as expected ZERO LnL procs, so essentially a 500 DPS loss from not using Black Arrow. So, can Explosive Trap damage + extra LnL procs give more than 500 DPS? If Black Arrow procs LnL once every 100 seconds, with Trap Mastery Explosive Trap would offer a LnL proc every 24 seconds. So by dropping Black Arrow we gain 3 extra LnL procs in 100 seconds, plus the damage of 4 explosive traps. In order to make up the difference, then, I need to do 50000 damage in those 100 seconds from Explosive Trap + LnL procs.
On my last Ulduar run, using Explosive Trap on adds, my average initial damage was 1250. Tooltip says additional 900 damage over 20 seconds - I'm uncertain if the DoT damage scales with AP or not, but for simplicity I'll have Explosive Trap damage as 2150 per application. The spreadsheet calculates my average Explosive Shot damage (without Black Arrow in the rotation) as 11699 for 3 ticks (averaging crit & non-crit with my calculated crit% fully raid buffed), and my average Steady Shot damage as 2844. So with the extra LnL procs, I gain 6 explosive shots, but lose 6 steadies.
(6 x 11699) + (4 x 2150) - (6 x 2844) = 61730 damage over that 100 seconds.
Looks to me like this could, surprisingly, be a slight DPS increase over Black Arrow. I'll try this out tonight and try to post some WWS data.
Last edited by Danrith : 05/13/09 at 11:09 AM.
Reason: Fixed typos
I used explosive trap last night on phase 2 of Thorim in the arena. It does indeed proc LnL on every initial placement of the trap but does not proc from the periodic damage. Unfortunately, our WWS parse was from someone who ran the gauntlet and does not include that information.
For the record, I'm the one who made the comment about Explosive Trap and multiple mobs. I had really forgotten about the post until I came back to this thread. I was operating under the assumption that Explosive Trap was operating the same way Immolation Trap was. Hell, as was pointed out by tooltip links, Explosive Trap is not supposed to trigger LnL at all.
But, after testing it more tonight, specifically Auriaya's swarms, and the worm packs en route to Hodir, I am pretty certain that Explosive Trap does not have a periodic chance to proc. I never saw a LnL refresh while clearing tonight.
But if it is a 100% LnL proc on trap triggering, perhaps we're back to the trap-dancing days.
Edit: Though on second thought, this would now conflict even more with the current version of Sniper Training. Perhaps merely on fights where there are reliable adds spawning.
I use Explosive Trap on Auriaya's swarms for a healthy dps increase over the rest of my raid. You can also use this on XT and Mimiron phase 3 (I explosive trap + engineering belt + volley + explosive shot the bigger adds), as well as the Freya encounter. Don't be shy, trap dancing is not dead!
Having seen the comments here regarding Explosive Trap, I tried this out on a Naxx run last night and I can confirm that Explosive Trap procced LnL 100% of the time on activation, but I never saw an activation on ticks of damage.
Now, the question is, would this be an increase in DPS over using Black Arrow. Using the spreadsheet, my current theoretical max DPS is 6501, using standard shot priority (Kill > Explosive > Black > Serpent > Aimed > Steady). Spreadsheet calculates an average time between LnL procs from Black Arrow of 101 seconds, which seems reasonable - we've all had those fights where it takes forever to get LnL procs.
Removing Black Arrow from my shot rotation gives a theoretical DPS of 5998, with as expected ZERO LnL procs, so essentially a 500 DPS loss from not using Black Arrow. So, can Explosive Trap damage + extra LnL procs give more than 500 DPS? If Black Arrow procs LnL once every 100 seconds, with Trap Mastery Explosive Trap would offer a LnL proc every 24 seconds. So by dropping Black Arrow we gain 3 extra LnL procs in 100 seconds, plus the damage of 4 explosive traps. In order to make up the difference, then, I need to do 50000 damage in those 100 seconds from Explosive Trap + LnL procs.
On my last Ulduar run, using Explosive Trap on adds, my average initial damage was 1250. Tooltip says additional 900 damage over 20 seconds - I'm uncertain if the DoT damage scales with AP or not, but for simplicity I'll have Explosive Trap damage as 2150 per application. The spreadsheet calculates my average Explosive Shot damage (without Black Arrow in the rotation) as 11699 for 3 ticks (averaging crit & non-crit with my calculated crit% fully raid buffed), and my average Steady Shot damage as 2844. So with the extra LnL procs, I gain 6 explosive shots, but lose 6 steadies.
(6 x 11699) + (4 x 2150) - (6 x 2844) = 61730 damage over that 100 seconds.
Looks to me like this could, surprisingly, be a slight DPS increase over Black Arrow. I'll try this out tonight and try to post some WWS data.
Are you accounting for the fact that Explosive Trap does damage to all adds within trap range? Your formula only seems to account for the initial application of the trap to one target.
The only time you can really count the traps damage is on the boss imo, so I would assume that extra adds being in there shouldn't be counted (unless you are more interested in personal dps and not killing the boss).
As for the ticks, some fights might not get all of them, due to movement. I know that's not the majority of fights, but still it's something to think about. If the dps difference is that much more, then a few missed ticks shouldn't matter much, though.
I hit 5100 dps on Auriaya last night using Explosive Trap instead of Black Arrow, which was good for 2nd in the raid behind a rogue to give you a relative gauge. The trap itself did a negligible amount of damage, about 1%, so less than Black Arrow would have done. It definitely seems like it would be worth trap dancing still if you don't lose a lot of DPS doing so, although there will always be the outliers when BA procs 3 LnL's in a row, which can never happen with a trap dancing.
This is sort of disappointing because I personally I hate trap dancing. Black Arrow is a pretty lame stopgap design, hopefully when 3.2 comes it will have trap launching or whatever and they can get rid of it.
Are you accounting for the fact that Explosive Trap does damage to all adds within trap range? Your formula only seems to account for the initial application of the trap to one target.
No, I am not accounting for any damage done to adds, because it will vary highly from fight to fight. What I'm attempting to evaluate is whether use of Explosive Trap would be a DPS increase on a single target. If we can show this, then it is obvious that it will be an additional increase in DPS when the trap application affects multiple targets. Unfortunately, the current version of the spreadsheet does not calculate Explosive Trap damage, so I'm going to need some empiric evidence to help firm up the numbers.
Earlier in this thread I followed the discussion of the optimal shot priority, which, at the time, favored Serpent Sting over Black Arrow. However, I'm seeing more Hunters breaking down their behavior using a priority that places Black Arrow over Serpent Sting.
I routinely read these boards and check the spreadsheet against my gear/gear planner/talents/glyphs with every release. I know there is an argument for BA>SrS, but I can't make the numbers justify it. I've read the argument for BA>SrS because of earlier LnL procs, though they're only potentially earlier by 1.5 to 3.0s seconds before falling into standard rotation. I've also read that putting BA over SrS and weaving a shot between matches the cooldown of talented BA (24s) to the falloff of the subsequent SrS (21s); but I see no real value to this other than making it easier to anticipate when it's time to debuff the mob again, rather than the rolling "whack-a-mole" priority which seems to get the best results.
My spec is 0/16/55, and the elements relavent to my point are primarily:
Noxious Stings (3/3) (+3% all damage on SrS'd targets)
Resourcefulness (3/3) (-6s CD to BA)
The text of BA ("increasing all damage done by you to the target by 6%").
Using the spreadsheet, I've set it to use shot rotation results, changed the shot rotation order and then hit "test rotation." I sampled each 10 times, and I'm providing the deltas to demonstrate how "stable" each rotation is. I get the following values with all other considerations equal:
RF>KS>ES>SrS>BA>AS>SS: 6670.68 ± 12.22. My current priority, SrS > BA
RF>KS>ES>BA>SrS>AS>SS: 6666.07 ± 18.56. My current priority, BA > SrS
RF>KS>BA>ES>SrS>AS>SS: 6658.28 ± 25.49. To match BA CD to SrS duration by weaving ES
RF>KS>BA>SrS>ES>AS>SS: 6609.37 ± 22.65. Buff every damaging shot concept, BA > SrS
RF>KS>ES>BA>AS>SrS>SS: 6668.77 ± 12.58. To match BA CD to SrS duration by weaving AS
RF>KS>SrS>BA>ES>AS>SS: 6628.75 ± 20.54. Buff every damaging shot concept, SrS > BA
I pretty closely follow the first priority; I do my best to keep SrS up >90% and generally I use Explosive Shot before I'll BA, even if BA is off cooldown. The spreadsheet seems to show that this has the highest DPS potential and also makes sense to me on my debuff timer. It places the full duration of Black Arrow into the window of Serpent Sting, which maximizes the time when (most of) my damage is buffed by +3%, +6%. There's also some merit to matching the BA cooldown to serpent sting duration, weaving AS between (it's just as "stable"), but it means that occasionally you would want to wait for a BA CD before using ES.
My damage is pretty satisfactory, but like everyone else here, I'm always looking to improve - is there some logic I'm not factoring in?
So, I tried out trap dancing with explosive trap last night in Ulduar, with mixed results. A few things make this not the best comparison. First, I have fairly high latency (200-400ms), and second, I'm not a practiced trap dancer, so I did have trouble at times with trap placement.
It seemed to work best on Auriaya and XT. The rumblers on Kologarn also seem to be a good place for this strategy, but I got the bug where I was gripped just as the arm died and never got released, so I died early on that fight and can't give any good report there. Ignis and Razorscale were more problematic due to the kiting of the boss - my trap placement failures were amplified. If you don't place the trap well, and it isn't activated, then you have 24 seconds where BA is not on the target AND you don't get the benefit of the extra LnL proc.
I'm going to continue to play around with this, but I think it is going to be more situational rather than a definite DPS upgrade.
I have read the threads contained here, and used the spreadsheets, and am having a hard time understanding why the soft cap is 523. With the 15% haste from quivers (that we now get naturaly unless i missed something), plus ~360 haste, your steady shots should be at 1.5 seconds cast time. This allows for weaving them with ES, and not waitin for a cooldown, or alternatively being in the GCD when ES is off cooldown.
The other question this brings up, is that after the soft cap, does haste still relate to crit on a 1.65:1 ratio as stated in an earlier post, or is the 200 crit pot more valuable. I have noticed that haste procs off of gear do not seem to have as alrge an effect now that i have 10% haste from gear , which is why i am having trouble understanding why the soft cap is 523.
I apologize for asking this as a question as I am newer to the game, but in my world (engineering) simple math is normaly better, and I cannot find any math that tells me that 523 haste is the cap. If there is I would love to see it, as I cannot believe that this has been missed, and am assuming that I am jsut not folowing all the theory.
I have read the threads contained here, and used the spreadsheets, and am having a hard time understanding why the soft cap is 523. With the 15% haste from quivers (that we now get naturaly unless i missed something), plus ~360 haste, your steady shots should be at 1.5 seconds cast time. This allows for weaving them with ES, and not waitin for a cooldown, or alternatively being in the GCD when ES is off cooldown.
The other question this brings up, is that after the soft cap, does haste still relate to crit on a 1.65:1 ratio as stated in an earlier post, or is the 200 crit pot more valuable. I have noticed that haste procs off of gear do not seem to have as alrge an effect now that i have 10% haste from gear , which is why i am having trouble understanding why the soft cap is 523.
I apologize for asking this as a question as I am newer to the game, but in my world (engineering) simple math is normaly better, and I cannot find any math that tells me that 523 haste is the cap. If there is I would love to see it, as I cannot believe that this has been missed, and am assuming that I am jsut not folowing all the theory.
05/12/09, 1:55 PM
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