Zwaineroth

Think of it this way:

110AP * 1.1 (TSA) = 121 AP with raid buffs.

35AGI * 1.15 (LR) * 1.1 (Kings) = 44.275 AGI with raid buffs, which is 44.275 * 1.1 (TSA) * 1.25 = 60.9 AP with 100% Expose Weakness uptime. 44 AGI is about .5% crit, so the comparison is 61AP and .5% crit versus 121 AP with full raid buffs. Makes sense to me that the 121 AP will be better.

If there was a 2H AGI enchant with level 80 itemization budgeting (55 AGI or 60 AGI), it would blow Massacre away for Surv.

 

mako

Based only on the item budget, 35 Agi is far inferior to 110 AP, being valued at roughly 70 attack power. Accounting for lightning reflexes, it's still only valued at 80.5 AP. Add kings and you're at an effective 88.55 AP. At 100% uptime, EW will only add ~11.07 AP to this, giving you a grand total of 99.62 AP equivalence for the 35 agility enchant.

Seeing as survival is swimming in loads of crit to begin with, the crit you gain from agility over ap is negligible in this case, diminishing the value of the enchant further. Short of a WotLK 2h Agility enchant, survival should stick with massacre like our other specs.

Edit: Bah, looks like Zwaineroth explained it before I did. =[

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Elvinalfie

Thank you both, that explains the math behind what I was seeing in my spreadsheet. I guess I just got confused as I am seeing so many hunters of all spec's running around with the 35 Agility enchant, I figured I was missing something somewhere.

EDIT: Can I then assume that Boot and Glove enchants fall into a similar situation?

 

Zwaineroth

I don't think so, because there are level 80 enchants for those slots. I think Icewalker (12 hit/12 crit) will always be the best for boots if you can use all the hit; otherwise, 16 AGI to boots should beat 32 AP. Likewise, 20 AGI to gloves should come out ahead of 44 AP to gloves (Crusher).

Keep in mind this is all flipped for BM, where the AP enchants always win.

Also, for boots, if you aren't going to have an Unholy DK in your raid with Unholy Aura, you should consider a runspeed enchant (Cat's Swiftness or Tuskarr's Vitality) given how much movement there is these days. BM doesn't have to worry about this because of Kindred Spirits.

 

Rivkah

According to the spreadsheet for my gear, 110 AP only gives 6.5 dps more than the 35 agil enchant. Mat prices on my server currently put 110 AP at over 1k, which is just a ridiculous amount of money to spend on an enchant for that small a dps increase (especially since in a month or two the cost will drop significantly as abyss crystals become cheaper due to a lot more Naxx gear being DEd). 35 agil costs almost nothing and is better than the cheaper new alternative, 85 AP. So that is why you will see many survival hunters using 35 agil.

Another option is scourgebane, which is 140 AP to undead, costs very little, and since only 2 Naxx bosses, Malygos, Sarth and Archavon are not undead, it's a good option for current raiding. That'll change with the next raid instance no doubt but for now it's worth consideration.

 

Esoth

I've been looking into immolation trap and the associated glyph. The trap appears to follow this formula:
1885+RAP*.1
It ticks for 5 times over 15 seconds, so each tick should be:
377+RAP*.02
The glyph has some strange wording but testing showed it doubled the first three ticks and then removed the last two ticks. It does not tick for 5 times in 9 seconds. I believe this gives it this formula:
3*(377+RAP*.02)*2=2262+RAP*.12

So this is what I have for immolation trap DPS with no trap mastery or resourcefulness, just trap mastery, and both:


I don't have it in the sheet there, but immolation trap is still subject to full and partial resists. Assuming your physical hit capped at 8%, the target has misery, and you have 2/2 Survival Tactics, you're still looking at a 2% chance for a full resist. Partial resist penalty is assumed to be somewhere in the range of 6% (and no, spell penetration cannot help you as this is level based - 2% per level). Take that plus Noxious Stings, Improved Tracking (guessing it works on this now; I have not tested), Curse of Elements/Malediction, and you have a final multiplier of .98*.94*1.03*1.05*1.13=1.126. That's about a 32.75 DPS increase for the lower right cell - meaning absolute best case for 8k AP.

For gear sets I've tried on the spreadsheet, this is still falling below Glyph of Steady Shot and Glyph of Serpent Sting, but might have potential as the third glyph?

 

KraxisSingular

And that was sort of what I meant with the transitional position of MM. BM likes AP a lot, Surv likes Agi a whole lot. MM likes both if not as profoundly as either, so either can work within reason for the spec. Also, while Haste as a direct scaling stat is better for MM it is hardly a bad stat for Survival. We want as many Explosive Shots out there as possible. Given that there will always be three non-ES per ES, you will gain a fair amount of them by simply lowering the amount of time Steady Shot needs. So that allows the Hunter to pick up MM gear (or should I say set-gear?) and use it well as Surv.

 

Gupster

Just wondering I maybe being stupid but with all this talk of 'trap dancing' why not take 'Trap mastery' as 30% more dps from Explosive trap....

 

ankah

Trap dacing is not for the dps of the trap itself, but to force Lock and Load, that if you have 3 points into it, it gives you 100% to proc on a trapped target. Boom Boom, 2 back to back mana free, ammo free, cool down free (just the GCD) explosive shots

 

Gupster

but if putting a trap in for that why not benefit from the 30% extra on it ?

 

Markemp

Because you can put that 1 talent point into a talent that increases your DPS by more than 30% of an immo trap every 24 or 30 seconds.

 

tachycardia

I would wager that haste actually outperforms other stats for Surv on a point-budget basis, at least until the haste soft-cap. While agi and crit increase damage and certain surv procs, haste can be thought of as doing the same since it increases the frequency of these events.

There's also no reason haste would be better for MM than surv since it pretty much works the same either way. With surv you're trying to decrease the cast time of your steadies in order to be able to shoot ES more, with MM it's the same with chim.

 

Aern

You're going to confuse some of the readers here if you continue to say haste will let you get more explosive shots off. That is only true if you're mangling your rotation and still casting steady shots when your ES is off CD. I will agree with you that I think haste is a very strong stat until you reach a 1.5 sec steady cast time. After that it seems like your best bet is to go with Agi. It really seems like the only current point of contention for SV is if trap dancing will actually yield better dmg in fights than just standing back will.

 

◊ Tobin

Say Explosive comes off CD right as Steady is about to finish casting, then you should probably just let the Steady fly, then cast Explosive on the next GCD for simplicity's sake... More haste for Steady means fewer Explosives end up getting pushed back in this manner.

 

sanremuile

On a bit of an unrelated note, I've brought up the current issue of trap activation range versus a boss's hit box on the Blizzard DPS forums. I don't really want to bump it, but the folks posting other topics are fairly enthusiastic, and it keeps getting pushed off the page.

• Link: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Trap Range vs. Large Boss Hit Box

To summarize, I was just pointing out that, while potentially useful, granting Hunters APT (Arrow-Propelled Traps) wouldn't solve our current trapping issues on larger bosses such as Malygos. The issue I'm referring to is the case where a trap has to be laid directly beneath a boss's center -- a task which can become fairly difficult when the boss has an incredibly large hit box.

My proposed solution was to allow traps to activate based on an enemy's hit box proximity, rather than the proximity (and positioning) of an NPC model. Already understanding some of the downfalls of a hit box activation system, I'd like some feedback as the issue of APT has been brought up several times.

(I'd also like to stop bumping my own thread, heh...)

 

Suspiria

Only a question: how is possible that trap dancing dont cut off hunter's dps?
I means, even with a perfect management of GCD, firing Arcane Shot or Serpent Sting during the "dance", I cant figure a situation which we can set our traps without lose dps versus any type of caster that simply stand and fire.
Imho "trap dancing" can be fun, but not powerful.
There are many boss that can make this option impossible to applycate: we can go to set trap to Illidan during phase 3? Yes, with a demon spawned 5 yard from us, not a good trade... And KJ? Falling cause snare because we are too near the boss, and too far the "drake spot", is not amusing (two boss only for ex, there are many many situations like this).

 

sihyunie

Trap dancing allows you to replace one steady with an explosive shot by replacing one steady with one immolation trap. With next patch, steady shot and immolation trap damage will be pretty much the same, while explosive shot damage will skyrocket. It should be around 7~8k damage increase every 24~30sec, or ~200-300 dps increase.
I think you can trap dance on most naxx bosses (either immo on boss, or other traps on adds) without too much difficulties.
I believe the problem is that you can't consistently gain the benefit of sniper training the way encounters are made up right now, otherwise, going that rout will probably be better for overall dps.

 

Suspiria

I believe simply which we cant project any type of trap dancing with "heavy boss": if raid leader say "everybody groupped on the moon", you cant go near the boss because this is 200 dps increase. In each boss there are tactics which cant be ignored, and imho trap dancing bring us in that direction.

 

Valinnor

Illidan and KJ are indeed fights where trap dancing would be hard but as far as LK goes I can't think of a single fight in Naxx where it'd be impossible (though there are some where it would be difficult). Even maly, sarth, and archavon have plenty of opportunities where dancing would be viable. That said, trap dancing seems to be nothing more than an option that we have as survival. The consequences for entering a fight where we cannot trap dance come down to a few talent points that are not used every fight, and in terms of pure DPS I do not think that we "lose" very much at all by speccing into talents that enable us to trap dance.


I respect your concern. God knows that there were fights in BC that fit this criteria of "heavy bosses". The Eredar Twins in SWP are the most evil bosses in the game and this tactic would not have been viable. I think it's likely that encounters will be designed that require us to forego dancing in favor of survival (the living kind, not the talent tree) but as of now such encounters do not exist.

 

sanremuile

Just on the topic of Trap Dancing's viability, most bosses are in fact Trappable in one way or another. Even if the boss themself has a factor preventing you from trapping them, there are usually adds, or moments within the fight where conditions alter so that you can get an Immo. trap set beneath them. Thaddius alone is actually really easy to trap, since you'll find yourself running through him all throughout the battle.

As a Survival Hunter, you just have to take apart every battle you go into and consider the areas of the Boss Chamber that are going to be accessible. At some point in every battle the Boss will somehow migrate to one of those areas, or produce adds which will migrate around the room. If you don't want to eat a hateful from Patchwerk, just take a swim through the goo before you run up to him. Frost traps work great on Faerlina's adds if you're worried about getting into her range.

Trapping Grobbulus is actually really simple, as you can tag him with a trap every time he moves, or just before he stops. If you're really quick, you can even trap the oozeling he spews at the tank.

Trap Dancing just takes some creativity.

 

Rokh

Does anyone know off-hand what the crit cap (if any) on a shot like Explosive Shot is? I've been testing survival lately, and even in 10 man raids I'm seeing 70% ES Crit. I remember lots of discussion on this pre-BC, and some during BC, but none since. Not sure what it is, or if there even is one anymore (Other than 100% obviously).

 

Nandei

I would say there is none but 100%. I got this Loatheb WWS, where I have 97% crit on Explosive.

 

King-Slide

Wasn't crit cap melee specific cause of glancings?

 

Tinwhisker

It is mainly a melee concern but it works for every physical DPS class.

100% - chance to miss - chance to dodge - chance to parry (should be 0 for every DPS class) - chance to glance + 4.8% crit reduction = crit cap

For hunters the crit cap should be just under 100%.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Ferrari_13

I was also thinking haste is better for Surv then MM, for MM usually goes deeper into the BM tree getting 5/5 Imp AotH, that plus readiness/rapid fire means they have a lot of procs to keep them near the soft cap then Surv does.