Earlier in this thread I followed the discussion of the optimal shot priority, which, at the time, favored Serpent Sting over Black Arrow. However, I'm seeing more Hunters breaking down their behavior using a priority that places Black Arrow over Serpent Sting.
I routinely read these boards and check the spreadsheet against my gear/gear planner/talents/glyphs with every release. I know there is an argument for BA>SrS, but I can't make the numbers justify it. I've read the argument for BA>SrS because of earlier LnL procs, though they're only potentially earlier by 1.5 to 3.0s seconds before falling into standard rotation. I've also read that putting BA over SrS and weaving a shot between matches the cooldown of talented BA (24s) to the falloff of the subsequent SrS (21s); but I see no real value to this other than making it easier to anticipate when it's time to debuff the mob again, rather than the rolling "whack-a-mole" priority which seems to get the best results.
My spec is 0/16/55, and the elements relavent to my point are primarily:
Noxious Stings (3/3) (+3% all damage on SrS'd targets)
Resourcefulness (3/3) (-6s CD to BA)
The text of BA ("increasing all damage done by you to the target by 6%").
Using the spreadsheet, I've set it to use shot rotation results, changed the shot rotation order and then hit "test rotation." I sampled each 10 times, and I'm providing the deltas to demonstrate how "stable" each rotation is. I get the following values with all other considerations equal:
RF>KS>ES>SrS>BA>AS>SS: 6670.68 ± 12.22. My current priority, SrS > BA
RF>KS>ES>BA>SrS>AS>SS: 6666.07 ± 18.56. My current priority, BA > SrS
RF>KS>BA>ES>SrS>AS>SS: 6658.28 ± 25.49. To match BA CD to SrS duration by weaving ES
RF>KS>BA>SrS>ES>AS>SS: 6609.37 ± 22.65. Buff every damaging shot concept, BA > SrS
RF>KS>ES>BA>AS>SrS>SS: 6668.77 ± 12.58. To match BA CD to SrS duration by weaving AS
RF>KS>SrS>BA>ES>AS>SS: 6628.75 ± 20.54. Buff every damaging shot concept, SrS > BA
I pretty closely follow the first priority; I do my best to keep SrS up >90% and generally I use Explosive Shot before I'll BA, even if BA is off cooldown. The spreadsheet seems to show that this has the highest DPS potential and also makes sense to me on my debuff timer. It places the full duration of Black Arrow into the window of Serpent Sting, which maximizes the time when (most of) my damage is buffed by +3%, +6%. There's also some merit to matching the BA cooldown to serpent sting duration, weaving AS between (it's just as "stable"), but it means that occasionally you would want to wait for a BA CD before using ES.
My damage is pretty satisfactory, but like everyone else here, I'm always looking to improve - is there some logic I'm not factoring in?
@Beachwanderer
This is one of the posts. I was using a similar spec at the time (with 3/3 hawkeye). Problem is, most people would opt out of hawkeye and pick up trap mastery for more BA damage... putting BA ahead of SrS in terms of damage, I'm guessing. I just haven't done much without hawkeye, as I spec'd out of it right around the same time I started playing with MM as my alternate spec.
Your patchwork dps might be a tiny bit higher, but you would lose dps in virtually every fight in Ulduar.
Or I wouldn't. RNG is RNG, so spawns can work in my favor just as easily as they can work in yours. I'll take my chances without Hawkeye on fights like XT, Ignis, Mimiron, Kologarn, Auriaya, and Thorim. Now... off-spec with 3/3 hawkeye I'd definitely work with. I just don't know I'd run it full-time as a blanket dps increase over taking trap mastery.
This is one of the posts. I was using a similar spec at the time (with 3/3 hawkeye). Problem is, most people would opt out of hawkeye and pick up trap mastery for more BA damage... putting BA ahead of SrS in terms of damage, I'm guessing. I just haven't done much without hawkeye, as I spec'd out of it right around the same time I started playing with MM as my alternate spec.
So, it probably depends on spec.
RF>KS>ES>SrS>BA>AS>SS: 6670.68 ± 12.22. My current priority, SrS > BA
RF>KS>ES>BA>SrS>AS>SS: 6666.07 ± 18.56. My current priority, BA > SrS
I find it strange he has a ± of an extra 6.34 dps for BA > SrS. It seems they are both extremely so close in dps, without Trap Mastery. That assures me I should continue using the higher dmg shot first (BA). What I'd really like to hear from you is what instances you really feel the hurting of not have Hawk Eye. Right now we are working on Mimiron hard mode, and I can already feel the tough spots I'm being put in from the fires spreading. ATM I'm scared to attempt him without Hawk Eye as I literally have my back to the wall with fires spreading all around me and I see how much closer my group has to get to get their dmg in. Being too close to someone, especially a healer can instantly cause your demise as they save themselves and you get burned to a crisp. With that in mind staying so far from everyone makes the healer's job much easier and minimizes my dps lost time from disengaging, rocket booting and strafing from fires and mines. I'm of the opinion they should rename Mimiron "He feeds on your tears".
RF>KS>ES>SrS>BA>AS>SS: 6670.68 ± 12.22. My current priority, SrS > BA
RF>KS>ES>BA>SrS>AS>SS: 6666.07 ± 18.56. My current priority, BA > SrS
I find it strange he has a ± of an extra 6.34 dps for BA > SrS. It seems they are both extremely so close in dps, without Trap Mastery. That assures me I should continue using the higher dmg shot first (BA).
Yeah, it doesn't appear to make a huge difference either way - I just got used to doing it one particular way.
Originally Posted by Beachwanderer
What I'd really like to hear from you is what instances you really feel the hurting of not have Hawk Eye.
Well, so far, I haven't missed it a ton. Then again, I'm not currently working on certain hard-modes where I could use the reach. There are going to be fights I'm sure where I'll be trying to pewpew something... it's out of range... and I'll think about your posts and curse your name
But, on the whole, I think it would be an off-spec choice for me. I am, however, going to pay more attention to it and see exactly how much I find myself moving around. Mimiron, for example... 5/5 Imp Tracking is useless. I could rob points from that when we start hitting his hardmode.
Volley is a channeled spell. Rapid Fire does indeed increase it's dps. Haste affects volley the same way it affects all AoE Effects. The spell will do the same amount of damage, but in less time. The period between each attack is shortened, so there are the same number of attacks, hitting for the same damage, but in a slightly faster time.
I'm sure you are mistaking Rapid Fire with Bloodlust, which does affect Volley. I just logged back on to test it. Both with and without Rapid Fire my Volley sat at a nice 5.5 seconds. That fits my 10%ish passive Haste well enough. But it certainly doesn't fit 40% Haste. What might make people mistake it is that the sound of Volley is faster. Each 'shot' comes those 40% Haste faster, but in terms of actual arcane arrows dropping from the sky, nothing changes.
I would not consider switching from SV to MM until I see a compelling dps boost in the gear I have or may have shortly. Not worth doing the homework on MM that I've done on SV over the past year or so.
I would not consider switching from SV to MM until I see a compelling dps boost in the gear I have or may have shortly. Not worth doing the homework on MM that I've done on SV over the past year or so.
Just my two cents
There isn't that much "homework" to do, honestly. I've never played MM in my life and I picked it up surprisingly quickly. If anything, it's easier to play than Surv.
That being said, MM is only a DPS up over Surv in Ulduar gear, to my knowledge. It's best to check the spreadsheet, and if it's a big enough DPS increase, I would definitely switch.
Looks like hunter's mark is being buffed to 500 AP in 3.1.3. In the spreadsheet this gives me a 97dps buff assuming no imp mark or glyphed mark. The glyph seems to add another 48.54dps and imp mark is worth 24.26dps per talent pt. At those levels, it may be more worth having a hunter spec or glyph for it. In my sheet the glyph comes out only a few dps less than the serpent sting one, and imp mark's talent value is coming out about 3dps lower than hunting party, assuming someone else is providing the replenishment. No doubt it would depend on gear and how many hunters you're running (my raid usually only has 1-2 so we probably won't bother), but in a raid with 2-3 hunters regularly I could see it be definitely worth having someone go that route.
I also haven't been seriously looking at marks but as it seems to be making a comeback, is it easier to find spare talent points for imp mark in the marks spec?
I would not consider switching from SV to MM until I see a compelling dps boost in the gear I have or may have shortly. Not worth doing the homework on MM that I've done on SV over the past year or so.
Just my two cents
Homework? Load up the spreadsheet and change your spec and rotation. See which one is higher dps. Marks is edging out SV for me already, and with the 3.1.3 mana changes it's a no brainer now.
Looks like hunter's mark is being buffed to 500 AP in 3.1.3. In the spreadsheet this gives me a 97dps buff assuming no imp mark or glyphed mark. The glyph seems to add another 48.54dps and imp mark is worth 24.26dps per talent pt. At those levels, it may be more worth having a hunter spec or glyph for it. In my sheet the glyph comes out only a few dps less than the serpent sting one, and imp mark's talent value is coming out about 3dps lower than hunting party, assuming someone else is providing the replenishment. No doubt it would depend on gear and how many hunters you're running (my raid usually only has 1-2 so we probably won't bother), but in a raid with 2-3 hunters regularly I could see it be definitely worth having someone go that route.
I also haven't been seriously looking at marks but as it seems to be making a comeback, is it easier to find spare talent points for imp mark in the marks spec?
Yeah, my raid see between 2 and 4 Hunters, in that case a token MM (which should be pretty attractive now with the change to Master Marksman) with both glyph and Imp Hunter's Mark should provide a huge DPS boost overall.
Personally I like my BM offspec for soloing stuff, but this difference is big enough to make me go for it.
Tbh I do not really see a great difference in difficulty as far as the three specs are concerned. Every spec is likewise easy to learn and play. I guess individual skill makes up for the difference whether you outperform other dds.
As a matter of fact I greatly dislike the rng component of sv which is lnl. If you are lucky you can have 2 or 3 lnl proccs within one uptime of BA, but you might as well have no procc at all.
To me mm is slightly more reliable as there is no procc which account for a huge portion of dps. As mm you might be a little more dependant on crits than sv is since piercing shot gives you some dps. Yet all in all I have experienced mm to be a little more stable, less fluctuating in dps.
The master marksman buff is great. It eliminates the disadvantage and makes mm viable again.
I'm sure you are mistaking Rapid Fire with Bloodlust, which does affect Volley. I just logged back on to test it. Both with and without Rapid Fire my Volley sat at a nice 5.5 seconds. That fits my 10%ish passive Haste well enough. But it certainly doesn't fit 40% Haste. What might make people mistake it is that the sound of Volley is faster. Each 'shot' comes those 40% Haste faster, but in terms of actual arcane arrows dropping from the sky, nothing changes.
Whoops you're right, I had a brain fart. I even said "Haste" which Rapid fire does not provide.
I would not consider switching from SV to MM until I see a compelling dps boost in the gear I have or may have shortly. Not worth doing the homework on MM that I've done on SV over the past year or so.
Just my two cents
I replaced my BM alt specc with the MM one after following several threads about the MM comeback. I agree that from all 3 speccs, SV must be the hardest one to adapt and learn to play but you don't need to be an astronaut to figure it out. Couple of days playing it and you are ready to go.
What annoyed me the most and made my DPS unreliable was the Sniper Training Buff and the LnL proccs. Other than that I was happy with it, not extremely happy with it because some DKs and rogues with similar or lower gear were having sustainable higher dps than mine. I was providing mana replenishment and having raid utility so...like I said, happy with it.
Went to ulduar25 last night with my MM specc (7/57/7 standard one), one day after switching it and the difference is amazing. First off I can jump and run and strafe all I want (like a good old hunter should do) and don't lose dps, the burst damage seems quite higher than the SV one and the dps is quite reliable. Was pumping regular 5.3k dps on the Mimiron fight, 900DPS lower than the spreadsheet predicted. Something to work on in the future but still pretty good.
When in 10mans I still have my SV with mana replenishment on the secondary specc but on 25mans it will be MM all the way from now on.
Nothing like being open minded and giving it a go, you can always go back if things go wrong or get a better specc to work with.
PS - Had no mana issues whatsoever with a Retribution Paladin and a SV Hunter on the raid but still it's not much more problematic than the SV one. Rapid Recuperation and Readiness are up for it. The new Master Marksman tooltip will only be make it better.
Ok
Been clearing Ulduar as of late and seeing all the top gear together is stacked armor pen and crit rating.
Slapping my haste into the dirt.
Has the need for 1.5 steady shot been extinguished or is there a new way around this?
HELP PLEASE!!!
Ok
Been clearing Ulduar as of late and seeing all the top gear together is stacked armor pen and crit rating.
Slapping my haste into the dirt.
Has the need for 1.5 steady shot been extinguished or is there a new way around this?
HELP PLEASE!!!
Well as far as my gear level is concerned, 1 Crit or 1 Arp both benefit me more then 1 Haste... Since I am definitely way below the soft haste-cap , I can pretty confidently tell you that soft hast-cap is definitely not needed for a raiding hunter. Ofcourse it is a nice thing to have but still if you consult your spreadsheet you will see that in many of the cases haste rating will remain inferior to crit or arp...
(PS. Still if you really want that, you can pick a few points from Iaoth and get glyphed for it- Though I expect such a choice could lower your dps in comparison to other alternatives)
Ok
Been clearing Ulduar as of late and seeing all the top gear together is stacked armor pen and crit rating.
Slapping my haste into the dirt.
Has the need for 1.5 steady shot been extinguished or is there a new way around this?
HELP PLEASE!!!
Steady Shot is becoming more and more of a filler shot for Survival hunters. Thus, the soft haste cap is not nearly as important as it used to be. If you take a look at the sets put together for maximum Survival DPS, I'm 99% sure that you would see they don't that Improved Aspect of the Hawk or have enough haste to reach the soft haste cap. Thus, there is not really a need to aim for the soft cap. Haste is still good but not the end all, be all.
Sorry to ask this question if its been posted before but im part of our 25man yoggs brain group and we get the brain down fast enough but i wanna help with the DPS to all inside the brain by switching my imp hawk to 3/3 to imp hunters mark while saying this in guild they stated that, there is a enhance talent that makes hunter mark pointless ... im not about this talent there talking about any ideas or is it good to get imp hunter mark and glyph it?
Thanks ahead of time
I do have to admit I'm an old school MM spec hunter dating back to the MC days but I switched to BM for BC then to Surv for WotLK. Up to this point Surv seemed like the best dps spec (naxx) but with the design of the Ulduar encounters and the recent annouced buffs it seems MM is the easy choice. I could care less with what the spreadhseet says because it does not factor in all the movement required for Ulduar encounters. MM is a much easier rotation to master, has excellent burst damage and mana is no longer an issue in 25s.
well sv>mm if you need to switch targets because you need hunters mark to deal good damage. And if your raiddps isn't high enough mana will be an issue.
Sorry to ask this question if its been posted before but im part of our 25man yoggs brain group and we get the brain down fast enough but i wanna help with the DPS to all inside the brain by switching my imp hawk to 3/3 to imp hunters mark while saying this in guild they stated that, there is a enhance talent that makes hunter mark pointless ... im not about this talent there talking about any ideas or is it good to get imp hunter mark and glyph it?
Hunter's mark only improves ranged attack power not melee (since 3.0), so unless you're running with multiple hunters in the brain, you aren't going to gain much from that. After 3.1.3 hunter's mark is getting buffed enough that the damage gain per talent point is almost as high as hunting party/aimed shot/imp hawk (the places you'd most likely scavenge the points for it), at which point it'll be a more viable option (but still probably not a gain without another hunter to use it).
Also, unless you're running a very strange survival spec, you probably can't move your points from hawk eye to the marks tree. The only case I could see where you would be able to do that is if you somehow specced both hawk eye and trap mastery, which isn't very common.
I have a question regarding armor penetration versus haste. Is armor penetration a better/more valuable stat compared to haste for a survival hunter? I've been reading the discussion in this forum fairly often and it appears that armor penetration is better from what I've been reading (following the hit > crit > ArP > haste priority if that's correct), but I've recently come into a debate with the matter with a hunter in my guild. This is what he posted in regards to why he believes haste is a better stat versus armor penetration:
I am a bit of a theory crafter myself. I am one of those people that does spend hours upon hours on the PTR testing changes and DPS specs. Anyway, we got into a bit of a discussion about the value of Armor Penetration (ArP) to a Hunter. I stated that i valued Haste/Agility/crit over ArP/Ap because as a survival hunter Explosive, Black Arrow and Serpent Sting are considered Magical damage and don't aren't affected by the amount of armor a mob has. That might be slightly incorrect because i can't find the article i read stating that they are not affected by armor but by resistances and the actual amount of defense a person has.
Here is an article which has been tried and tested showing the value of ArP to a hunter and to which spec it most benefits.
As survival the reason i value haste over ArP (even though all my damn gear has ArP) is because there is a finite amount of space between explosive shot (our bread and butter shot) to fit in the other abilities. With the correct amount of haste you will not have that slight .5 second clipping of explosive shot when fitting a steady shot in your priority scale. As of current my "rotation" has me clipping the following explosive by about .5 seconds which forces me to wait almost a full global to use explosive. This is time which is wasted.
Another thing that a certain level of haste will do is allow me to channel talent points from Improved Aspect of the Hawk into a more beneficial talent area, likely Resourcefulness for a shorter black arrow cooldown (hence more LnL proc's) or maybe improved stings for higher over all serpent sting damage. OR with the release of 3.1.3 i might even be able to put those points into Imp Hunter's Mark and increase my AP by 300ish.
I honestly feel it is a misconception that Haste is a garbage stat for hunters. It isn't as strong as it once was, but it is still a very beneficial stat. I also believe that ArP is not very valuable until you are able to amass a LARGE amount. Unfortunately the way that T8.5 and subsequent UR25 gear is going we are forced into ArP as a way of life. Is ArP usefull yes, when taken in large quantities but little amounts are less useful than haste or crit. As soon as i find the other article it will be in here. I used to have it book marked but alas, i clear those out from time to time.
Can anyone thoroughly explain why armor penetration is a more valuable stat compared to haste for survival? I would appreciate it and thanks in advance.
Well the spreadsheet isn't perfect, but it can give you a rough idea of the relative values of haste versus ArPen. On the sheet with my gear (I'm a few iterations behind the current beta) I get a value of .714 dps for ArPen and .469 for haste. You should check the most recent spreadsheet with your gear for more customized values.
Also keep in mind that although ArPen affects only about 42% of our damage as survival once you count pet damage (auto, steady, aimed + multi, kill shot), haste only gives noticable gain to about 30% of our damage including pet damage (autoshot + steady till you get soft capped). These estimates are taken from my Ignis data from last week, obviously it will vary depending on the fight and gear but Ignis is a relatively straightforward fight (with maybe a little weaker steady shots due to the bounces). There are some benefits from finishing the steady shot cast a little faster which translate into slightly higher damage from other sources, but those are harder to measure. From a straight breakdown perspective it makes sense that ArPen would be worth more than haste.
Wouldn't you want to add Rhino the Tenacity pets list?
It's Stampede makes bleed effects do 25% more damage. The only other bleed hunters have is Piercing Shot but it is only available to MM hunter and only lasts 8 seconds and has a 30% chance. Contrary to the rhino's stampede which lasts 12 seconds and has a 100% chance of succeeding. I believe the Rhino is highly viable in raiding.
05/26/09, 2:07 PM
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