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Old 03/11/09, 5:14 PM   #1741
SpartanKillian
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Dalaran
Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
I agree with you there. I recently changed my UI and added things like recount, and other new mods onto my system. As a result in the last two weeks since I have had the UI my DPS has dropped by about 800 dps. Instead of being in the top 5 dps I've drop to near the bottom 15.

It's pretty distressing to see such a huge difference with no change in gear or rotation.

As an example

Patchwerk two weeks ago WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish
Patchwerk this week. WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

The odd thing. Looking at them. My explosive shot damage dropped a lot this week.

4.8k crits vs 4.2k crits with the same gear.

This beats the hell of out me.
A few things that might explain the dip:

Your dps time (%) is lower.
Unleashed Rage has a lower uptime.
Expose Weakness has a lower uptime.
Retribution Aura has a lower uptime (8% vs 0%, but still)
1 fewer LnL proc.

It's probably not worth shifting through everything, but if you're really curious, take a look when your crits occur. Did more take place under UR and/or EW in the first attempt? I'd guess yes, since they were active for more of the fight. That might explain the difference in your damage ceiling.

EDIT: Wow, talk about not seeing the forest from the trees--I missed something fairly obvious at first glance. I'm going out on a limb (ha!) here and guessing you did, in fact, cast Steady Shot at least once during the second attempt. None are recorded and your other damage sources add up to 100%, so I'm betting there's a pretty significant error at work there.

Last edited by SpartanKillian : 03/11/09 at 5:20 PM.

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Old 03/11/09, 5:25 PM   #1742
Eraist
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
I agree with you there. I recently changed my UI and added things like recount, and other new mods onto my system. As a result in the last two weeks since I have had the UI my DPS has dropped by about 800 dps. Instead of being in the top 5 dps I've drop to near the bottom 15.

It's pretty distressing to see such a huge difference with no change in gear or rotation.

As an example

Patchwerk two weeks ago WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish
Patchwerk this week. WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

The odd thing. Looking at them. My explosive shot damage dropped a lot this week.

4.8k crits vs 4.2k crits with the same gear.

This beats the hell of out me.
You know, that brings up a good point. I am using a new UI in the last month or so. I've always used recount and omen and Big wigs, and Bartender, but this new UI is called Spartan UI and I love it, but maybe it's causing some issues.

Maybe I'll try not standing so far away on Patch and disabling the UI for tonight and see if it gets better. The length of the fight I have no control over. If my Raid leader insists on bringin undergeared people that slow us down, well not my decision I guess.

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Old 03/11/09, 5:35 PM   #1743
SpartanKillian
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Dalaran
Originally Posted by Eraist View Post
You know, that brings up a good point. I am using a new UI in the last month or so. I've always used recount and omen and Big wigs, and Bartender, but this new UI is called Spartan UI and I love it, but maybe it's causing some issues.

Maybe I'll try not standing so far away on Patch and disabling the UI for tonight and see if it gets better. The length of the fight I have no control over. If my Raid leader insists on bringin undergeared people that slow us down, well not my decision I guess.
Small world. SpartanUI is the brainchild of one of my guild's founders. Ansu doesn't really play that much anymore, but I think he still works on the UI project, which has its own team. If it turns out to be an issue, let me know. A lot of us (Spartans) use it.

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Old 03/11/09, 6:03 PM   #1744
Phantasmique
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Aerie Peak (EU)
Originally Posted by Zeuxis View Post
To pile on here, getting sniper training's benefit on Patch is frequently a net dps loss due to loss of melee buffs. Patch has a big hit box. If the melee is on the opposite side of patch from you, and you're 30 yards out, you're almost certainly missing buffs. Myself and our other raid hunter tested this; one week, I stood at 30 and he was in close. I posted 4900, he posted 5300. The next week we swapped, and he posted 4800 and I posted 5500. We now both stand closer on patch (I actually trap dance in a desperate attempt to keep up with the felguard locks and FFB mages). DPS is now in the 5800 range and life is good.

Sniper training's benefit is the KS crit chance. The range-based benefit is almost never worth what you give up.

Im going to vote on this one

In the last few weeks my dps wasnt as high as supposed ( 5500+ ) and i was always missing a few hundreds . I thought that its the lag, or maybe i dont have the best rotation, but then i found out and it was the range . When i stood at closer range to get a better uptime of some melee buffs, my dps increased nicely and i was getting the number that i was expected to get ( 5500 - 5700 dps )

Stay at closer range and ignore the sniper training, its not worth in comparison with the rest of the missing buffs and their uptime

PS : The thingy with staying at 30 yards and getting both sniper training/melee buffs doesnt really work as the melee players are mostly further than patchwerk itself

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Old 03/11/09, 6:24 PM   #1745
Namarus
Don Flamenco
 
Orc Hunter
 
Demon Soul
Originally Posted by SpartanKillian View Post
A few things that might explain the dip:

Your dps time (%) is lower.
Unleashed Rage has a lower uptime.
Expose Weakness has a lower uptime.
Retribution Aura has a lower uptime (8% vs 0%, but still)
1 fewer LnL proc.

It's probably not worth shifting through everything, but if you're really curious, take a look when your crits occur. Did more take place under UR and/or EW in the first attempt? I'd guess yes, since they were active for more of the fight. That might explain the difference in your damage ceiling.

EDIT: Wow, talk about not seeing the forest from the trees--I missed something fairly obvious at first glance. I'm going out on a limb (ha!) here and guessing you did, in fact, cast Steady Shot at least once during the second attempt. None are recorded and your other damage sources add up to 100%, so I'm betting there's a pretty significant error at work there.
You sir are a genius. As part of changing my UI I messed up the steady shot macro. So Steady Shot was not firing even though I was pressing the button. Wow, I feel stupid.

However, it still doesn't account for the huge loss in explosive damage, that's a loss of 1.8k damage per explosive. I can't work out where that would come from.

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Old 03/12/09, 2:49 AM   #1746
Mistax
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
I know this has probably been ask before about the stat per point of arm pen. But in the 2 most recent naxx clears I've done i have noticed a huge difference in my Explosive Shot/Steady Shot/Auto Shot damage ratio compared to theirs.

I am using almost best in slot/ Other hunter is using mix and match right now working towards BiS has grim toll and some ArmPen/ Last hunter uses 4/5 T7.5 and mix and match off pieces.

Explosive shot - There about a 200-300k Difference here as I'm always ahead but the weird thing is based on wws the amount of hits done i could range anywhere from 40-80 less shot of ES and still have a huge margin of damage lead.

Auto shot/Steadyshot- this is where i am failing a bit my im usually anywhere from 20-50 shot behind, but their average damage lead from here is 350-500k for autoshot and 100-200k for Steady Shot. Most of the time their AVG autoshot/steadyshot damage is a bit higher than what i am able to maintain.

Rotation - Rapid->KS->ES->MS->SpS->Steady
LnL- Currently testing out ES->MS if its up or SpS if it needs refreshing->ES->wait 1.5->ES

Based on the information I have is armor pen being a very very valuable stat point or is their something wrong with either my rotation or FPS/Lag issues.

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Old 03/12/09, 4:29 AM   #1747
sihyunie
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Mistax View Post
I know this has probably been ask before about the stat per point of arm pen. But in the 2 most recent naxx clears I've done i have noticed a huge difference in my Explosive Shot/Steady Shot/Auto Shot damage ratio compared to theirs.

I am using almost best in slot/ Other hunter is using mix and match right now working towards BiS has grim toll and some ArmPen/ Last hunter uses 4/5 T7.5 and mix and match off pieces.

Explosive shot - There about a 200-300k Difference here as I'm always ahead but the weird thing is based on wws the amount of hits done i could range anywhere from 40-80 less shot of ES and still have a huge margin of damage lead.

Auto shot/Steadyshot- this is where i am failing a bit my im usually anywhere from 20-50 shot behind, but their average damage lead from here is 350-500k for autoshot and 100-200k for Steady Shot. Most of the time their AVG autoshot/steadyshot damage is a bit higher than what i am able to maintain.

Rotation - Rapid->KS->ES->MS->SpS->Steady
LnL- Currently testing out ES->MS if its up or SpS if it needs refreshing->ES->wait 1.5->ES

Based on the information I have is armor pen being a very very valuable stat point or is their something wrong with either my rotation or FPS/Lag issues.
I'm actually having a hard time understanding your question, but will try to answer it anyway.
First, it's hard to tell where things are happening without the actual WWS report. Also, what are these differences you are mentioning? Since they are in hundred thousand range, I'm assuming it's either from a boss kill or the collection of boss kills. Having a WWS report to look at would help.
From your explanation, it seems like you have better gear than the other two hunters, which would explain why your explosive shots hit harder. As for auto shot and steady shot number difference, I'm guessing that the other two hunters aren't using multi shot and/or have more haste than you. Since BiS gears don't really have much haste compared to others, it would change the number of auto shots made. Also, your rotation has you waiting only 1.5 sec, not 2sec, between the ES. This will clip last tick of explosive shot and may be one of the reasons why you have far less explosive shots recorded on WWS.
I'm confused about your question regarding armor pen. How can armor pen be valuable when you do better without them? It has been discussed in many threads that Armor Pen is a bad stat in terms of item budgeting and next patch only makes it just not as bad, but still not very good.

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Old 03/12/09, 5:37 AM   #1748
Mistax
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
I will PM you a WWS since the guild doesn't want it to be tossed around.

waiting 1.5 Second to fire the ES should be fine because of travel time the shot should land in perfect syn and not clip the last tick. If it does I'll go back to using ES/Multi/ES/Steady

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Old 03/12/09, 6:35 AM   #1749
sihyunie
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Bonechewer
So I looked at your WWS. If you just look at all bosses, the numbers are pretty much the same for all shots. You also critted more than the other people on Explosive Shot, which explains why your damage from Explosive Shot is higher than the other two. Humera has the most haste, so that explains why he has more auto shot, but other shots occur in similar numbers. Also, your dps numbers are pretty close to each other.
If you look at say the whole WWS report, of course numbers will be off a lot since you cast volley, move around and do other stuff as well. Just looking at the boss kills, I really don't see anything wrong with it, considering how your gears are pretty close to each other.
As for waiting 1.5sec, if time between 2 explosive shot is 1.5 sec (i.e. spam ES), it'll definitely clip the last tick. Both shots have the same travel time, so if you fire them every 1.5 sec, they will land with 1.5sec difference. I didn't look at your combat log to see if clipping actually happens and it might not because of latency and such (.5 sec isn't all that long).

Last edited by sihyunie : 03/12/09 at 6:53 AM.

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Old 03/12/09, 6:40 AM   #1750
Mistax
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
It's not just more auto shots. I think he only about 25 more? not sure since im not lookking at the wws right now but he is about 400k ahead in autoshot damage so that average to about 16k shots?

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Old 03/12/09, 8:46 AM   #1751
alienangel
Bald Bull
 
alienangel's Avatar
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Eredar
Regarding the Sniper Training/Melee buffs position, on fights like PW/loatheb at least it seems pretty moot, since trapdancing provides such a ridiculous damage boost, and requires you give up on ST. I usually get 8 procs per 2:50ish PW, compared to 2-3 when at Sniper Training range.

This week I got only 6 thanks to screwing up a bit, and lost a few hundred DPS, inspite of better gear than last week.

edit: ok, "a few hundred DPS" is exaggerating, mental math on the bus says each trapdanced LnL proc is a net gain of around 19k damage, while the two LnL procs I missed this week were worth about 30k damage total. So a net loss of 30000/170 = 176 DPS lost.

Still, if that napkin math is right (I couldn't remember the average auto and steady damage figures :S), going from 3 LnL procs per 2:50 fight with no trapdancing to 8 with trapdancing is equal to: 19000 x 5 / 170 = 558 dps lost?

You'd need to be doing 9300 dps from just steady, aimed and ES before the 6% damage from Sniper Training would gain you that much DPS. Of course you could get lucky and get an LnL proc every internal cooldown, that'd still be a total of only 5 LnL procs in 2:50.

Last edited by alienangel : 03/12/09 at 9:47 AM.

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Old 03/12/09, 1:13 PM   #1752
Belbo
Glass Joe
 
Troll Hunter
 
Staghelm
At the risk of beating a dead horse here... I have searched this post and i remember seeing it somewhere but can not find it so here goes...

I have 407 haste and depending on some gear swaps of stuff in my bag I can get 470ish...

At 407 haste it shows 12.41% haste on the paperdoll.

With 15% from quiver and 12.41% haste from gear - at what point do you not need any points in IAotH ?

armory link -http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Staghelm&n=Belbo

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Old 03/12/09, 1:29 PM   #1753
Malarahu
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Malfurion
Originally Posted by Belbo View Post
At the risk of beating a dead horse here... I have searched this post and i remember seeing it somewhere but can not find it so here goes...

I have 407 haste and depending on some gear swaps of stuff in my bag I can get 470ish...

At 407 haste it shows 12.41% haste on the paperdoll.

With 15% from quiver and 12.41% haste from gear - at what point do you not need any points in IAotH ?

armory link -http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Staghelm&n=Belbo
The haste softcap is 522.

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Old 03/12/09, 7:23 PM   #1754
Men
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Frostmane
I have a question about Steady Shot when Haste capped. Assuming my SS cast time was down to 1.5s and I'm using the Glyph of Steady Shot, is it desirable to try and fit 3 steady shots (or 2 SS plus 1 Aimed) in between each ES when considering server latency (I'm at about 100ms) and human latency? Also, I've read people recommending to wait for ES ticks during LnL. Is it understood to wait for all 3 ticks before firing the next ES? Any help I could get would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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Old 03/12/09, 7:54 PM   #1755
Perzyx
Von Kaiser
 
Perzyx's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Mistax View Post
I will PM you a WWS since the guild doesn't want it to be tossed around.

waiting 1.5 Second to fire the ES should be fine because of travel time the shot should land in perfect syn and not clip the last tick. If it does I'll go back to using ES/Multi/ES/Steady
Ummm, that cannot be correct. First off, the travel time it takes to land is the same as the shot prior (unless you moved a great distance) therefore if it took .5s for your first shot to land, it would be the same .5s for the 3nd shot to land.

Second of all, it is not waiting 1.5 Seconds to fire the subsequent ES's... ES ticks 2 additional times every second. Therefore it is 2 seconds that need to be accounted for. 1.5 seconds is handled by your GCD then another .5s "pause".

This is the 3rd time I've seen someone talk about "travel time" and I wonder where they got it from.

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