Ran some basic simulations on what the expected effective LnL procrate would be based on various combinations of LnL and resourcefulness talent investment. I ran these assuming a base rate of 7% proc rate per point in LnL (21% total for 3 pts, which is relatively in line with what the basic tests seem to be giving us) and assuming that BA was cast everytime it was up. The effective proc rate of LnL is obviously going to go down for more pts invested in resourcefulness, but the total BA procs would be up which would still mean more total LnL procs.
This all assumes that LnL proc rate is actually a flat percentage still and that it scales equally per talent point investment.
Note: none of this is based on in game tests, this is all coded simulation.
So that means, 3/3 Resourcefulness and shooting Black Arrow whenever the cooldown's up is better than delaying Black Arrow? If you cast BA everytime it's up, then Resourcefulness is obviously a good talent, but what if you delay BA?
I'm thinking about the new "Cookie-cutter" build. This should be the "base", but where should those last 6 points go?
BM with 1 point in Focused Fire seems quite as good as 3/3 Resourcefulness + 2/3 Hunting Party and Aimed Shot. What do you think?
Aimed shot is quite obvious as you max out Sniper Training.
Personally, I would skip 1 point from Master Tactician and go with 6 points in BM, getting 1 point in Focused Fire. Have to do some math to be sure - further, I'm not quite sure yet how to interpretate the simulation shown in #3026. I'll get back to it when napkin is full :P
You can't get both focused fire and aimed shot without dropping explosive. I also don't think completely disregarding resourcefulness is worthwhile since one point in it doesn't cause much of a drop in the LnL percentage. The damage from Black Arrow and the 6% damage modifier need to be figured in conjunction with the getting the optimal amount of LnL procs. For example, over the course of a six minute fight 3/3 in resourcefulness gives you an average of 8.55 LnL procs and 62.5% uptime on BA (or 3.75% extra damage over the course of the fight). No points in resourcefulness yields only 8.09 procs and only 3% extra damage over the fight.
Last edited by Eilleye : 08/16/09 at 2:11 PM.
Reason: For clarity
The results of my tests on training dummies today;
- a total number of 63 black arrows shot while the LnL is outside of the internal cd and i got 48 LnL proc's, around 76,2% of black arrows procced LnL. The chance of a black arrow triggering LnL is calculated with the formula 1-(1-r)^5 which is equal to 0.762 where "r" is the proc rate of LnL from each black arrow tick and "r" is found to be around 0.25(25%) from the equation.
- The previous calculation may be insufficient , so i followed the LnL proc's and the result i got is; LnL was triggered 48 times from 197 black arrow ticks (outside of the LnL internal cd) which makes the proc rate around 24,37%
I didn't take the combatlogs and I haven't calculated the standard deviation since It's been a lot of time since the last time i studied maths and i dont remember anything about statistical treatment of the experimental data.
I ran my simulation to get some additional data and I thought these numbers would be interesting.
21% LnL Base Proc Rate:
0 Res- LnL Effective Proc: 13.36%, Total LnL Procs: 133634, Total BA Ticks: 1000000
1 Res- LnL Effective Proc: 13.32%, Total LnL Procs: 142672, Total BA Ticks: 1071430
2 Res- LnL Effective Proc: 12.53%, Total LnL Procs: 144628, Total BA Ticks: 1153846
3 Res- LnL Effective Proc: 11.43%, Total LnL Procs: 142837, Total BA Ticks: 1250000
It would be interesting to take it a bit further and, based on average ES damage vs BA tick damage, calculate which results in the highest DPS. I imagine the 0 Resourcefulness case does, just because of the magnitude of the difference.
The next thing to simulate is waiting to apply BA again until the internal CD has worn off. I suspect this, with 3/3 Resourcefulness, will result in the highest DPS combination, but it would need to be simulated.
The next thing to simulate is waiting to apply BA again until the internal CD has worn off. I suspect this, with 3/3 Resourcefulness, will result in the highest DPS combination, but it would need to be simulated.
With 3/3 Resourcefulness and assuming my numbers are correct, you will have to delay the next BA 62% of the time (no LnL proc on the first and second BA tick). I have a hard time believing, it's an advantage to use 3 talent point where you won't use them to their full potential in the majority of cases. My guess is, if you want to delay your next BA until the LnL cooldown is expired, only take 2/3 (needs delaying in 49% of the cases, if no proc on first 3 ticks) or 0/3 (38%; no proc on first 4 ticks). With just one point in Resourcefulness you gain no extra leeway on how many ticks may not proc LnL before you have to delay the next BA. If you have any evidence that delaying BA is the superior strategy to using BA every time the cooldown is up, please share it.
Rivkahs numbers show the most LnL procs for 2/3 Resourcefulness. Compared to 3/3, that is a lose of about 5% of BA uptime. I wonder if the increased number of LnL procs is a large enough dps gain to sacrifice those 5% of BA uptime.
I plugged these modified rates into my test version of the DPS Analyzer to see what the difference would be between 2 and 3 pts in resourcefulness (with 3 pts in LnL). I tested both with the rotation test and the default. With the rotation test, there was a 1 dps gain from taking that 3rd pt in resourcefulness. With the default there was a 4 dps gain. Note that when testing 2/3 resourcefulness I didn't put that 3rd point in any other talent, so there's a spare talent point that could almost definitely be used to gain more than that small amount of dps.
The black arrow damage modifier based on uptime was the following:
Rotation test w/ 3 resourcefulness: 1.0350291909925
Rotation test w/ 2 resourcefulness: 1.0325
Default w/ 3 resourcefulness: 1.0363636363636
Default w/ 2 resourcefulness: 1.0340909090909
Note that LnL modeling in the spreadsheet and the DPS Analyzer is most likely far from perfect, given how difficult it is to get perfect execution with it. But the numbers do indicate to me that it may be worth dropping that 3rd point in resourcefulness. As it is, black arrow isn't our highest priority shot to begin with, so it's not uncommon for it to be pushed back for explosive or kill shot a bit, especially when LnL is active. So 2 seconds may spreadsheet well, but the reality is we often won't make good use of those 2 seconds, so with these latest changes it may be worthwhile to spend the talent elsewhere.
Also keep in mind that all these numbers are based on a lot of assumptions and other people's LnL tests that we haven't been able to establish solid numbers from, so we still need more data I think to make a firm recommendation on the topic.
I haven't thoroughly tested the math behind it but I believe that we still wouldn't ever want to completely delay Black Arrow for the internal cooldown on Lock and Load either. What I have been doing though, is prioritizing Black Arrow ahead of Explosive Shot when Lock and Load is not on internal cooldown. I haven't been exactly timing it or anything, but roughly thinking for the few points in rotation when Black Arrow and Explosive Shot are both ready to be fired at the same time, I'll shoot Explosive Shot if I've recent had a LnL proc, or switch to Black Arrow first if I have not (or at the very beginning of the fight).
As for the 3rd point in Resourcefulness, even in 89g and still now in 91b, I've had higher DPS as a 5/15/51 (1/3 Resourcefulness) and 4/15/52 (2/2 Resourcefulness) than going 3/15/53 (3/3 Resourcefulness). Right now (in 91b), my highest SV DPS spec ends up being 4/15/51
As for the 3rd point in Resourcefulness, even in 89g and still now in 91b, I've had higher DPS as a 5/15/51 (1/3 Resourcefulness) and 4/15/52 (2/2 Resourcefulness) than going 3/15/53 (3/3 Resourcefulness). Right now (in 91b), my highest SV DPS spec ends up being 4/15/51
Is it really worth losing the 6% damage bonus from all attacks that BA grants to slightly increase the LnL proc rate?
I was looking at the calculations on the 91b Spreadsheet for values pertaining to Black Arrow with my BiS SV gearset which pretty much uses all Trial of the Crusader (10/25) Heroic gear.
In trying to decide if it's beneficial to switch Black Arrow to a higher priority than Explosive Shot, I discovered some interesting things about the uptime of Black Arrow.
For the following tables, I used a the base 4/16/51 build from my BiS build (which had (1/3 Resourcefulness) and simply modified the talent points into Resourcefulness alone and didn't adjust talent points in other trees to skew the data. 3/3 Resourcefulness only had higher Black Arrow uptime than 2/3 if it was prioritized before Explosive Shot.
BiS gear had the highest Total DPS with either 1/3 Resourcefulness when Exp > BA, or only a 1 DPS difference by going 3/3 Resourcefulness when BA > Exp. The latter happens to require 73 talent points and is actually impossible though.
When doing the same test for my actually current gear (which is pretty close to Ulduar BiS), my highest total DPS actually came out at 2/3 Resourcefulness when BA > Exp. I believe it didn't end up the same because of the considerably large amount of extra damage from each Black Arrow with the additional uptime of the +6% damage modifier and higher chance of proccing more Explosive Shots. With BiS gear, the +6% damage uptime increase is overshadowed by the much higher damage Explosive Shots, and makes it not worth waiting the GCD to cast it.
Am I see correctly that SV is almost as good as MM with this 6,5% BA procc chance? (According to the spreadsheet)
With my current gear and equal gemming (agi and +10stat for meta), my MM and SV build outcome is almost equal with 6.5% LnL pr. talent. However, with an armPen build+gem I still see MM ahead with ~200 dps.
If you want some of the utility you can get from a Cunning pet and are worried about a slight dps loss, consider that you can spec our pet for Feeding Frenzy. This will cause a Cunning pet to out dps a Ferocity pet when the boss is at 35% or lower.
Ferocity:
+9% crit up at all times
+12% dmg (3/3 Spike Collar + 1/2 Shark Attack)
Cunning:
+9% damage up at all times (3/3 Spiked Collar)
+25% damage up when target is at/below 35% health
Also has a powerful attack in the form of Wolverine Bite which can hit for very respectable damage.
1/2 Wild Hunt also helps offset any dps loss vs. Ferocity
All in all, Cunning can deal some solid damage when it counts.
If you want some of the utility you can get from a Cunning pet and are worried about a slight dps loss, consider that you can spec our pet for Feeding Frenzy. This will cause a Cunning pet to out dps a Ferocity pet when the boss is at 35% or lower.
Ferocity:
+9% crit up at all times
+12% dmg (3/3 Spike Collar + 1/2 Shark Attack)
Cunning:
+9% damage up at all times (3/3 Spiked Collar)
+25% damage up when target is at/below 35% health
Also has a powerful attack in the form of Wolverine Bite which can hit for very respectable damage.
1/2 Wild Hunt also helps offset any dps loss vs. Ferocity
All in all, Cunning can deal some solid damage when it counts.
You need to consider the loss of Call of the Wild and Ferocious Bite to your own DPS as well, which is quite significant. Even in a fight like Yogg phase 3 where Feeding Frenzy gets 100% time I'm seeing a cunning pet beating a ferocity only slightly, while overall hunter+pet dps remains lower than with a wolf. Cunning pets in this situation would likely be more favorable to BM though.
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
I ran my simulation to get some additional data and I thought these numbers would be interesting.
21% LnL Base Proc Rate:
0 Res- LnL Effective Proc: 13.36%, Total LnL Procs: 133634, Total BA Ticks: 1000000
1 Res- LnL Effective Proc: 13.32%, Total LnL Procs: 142672, Total BA Ticks: 1071430
2 Res- LnL Effective Proc: 12.53%, Total LnL Procs: 144628, Total BA Ticks: 1153846
3 Res- LnL Effective Proc: 11.43%, Total LnL Procs: 142837, Total BA Ticks: 1250000
When I originally looked at this, what I found most interesting was that 2/3 Res actually had more procs than 3/3 Res.
However, looking at it again I saw that 1/3 Res has almost the same amount of LnL procs as 3/3 Res.
So then I started thinking, 2 talent points difference for what? Extra BA ticks. Well how much of a dps gain are those extra BA ticks?
After doing some very rough math, I came to the conclusion that the difference in BA ticks between 1/3 Resourcefulness and 3/3 Resourcefulness, is about 1% dps. The difference in LnL procs is neglible. So I'm thinking a 1% dps gain for 2 talent points is a poor investment.
However, Improved Aspect of the Hawk is a pretty poor investment for a SV hunter as well.
I'm highly considering a 0/17/54 spec which would include picking up a couple points in focused aim and then try to gear for 6% hit rating. However, if all I'm gaining is armor pen and haste, then those 2 talent points might be poorly invested.
Something else to consider would be a 0/18/53 spec, picking up 3 points in Improved Hunter's Mark. Obviously if another hunter in your guild already has it then it would be near worthless, but it might be better for a SV hunter to pick up this talent rather than a MM hunter. Hunting party gives about 19 agility per point in a 25-man raid (give or take a few based on gear). IHM gives 50 attack power per point. Obviously a bigger gain even if you are the only hunter in a 25-man raid.
You need to consider the loss of Call of the Wild and Ferocious Bite to your own DPS as well, which is quite significant. Even in a fight like Yogg phase 3 where Feeding Frenzy gets 100% time I'm seeing a cunning pet beating a ferocity only slightly, while overall hunter+pet dps remains lower than with a wolf. Cunning pets in this situation would likely be more favorable to BM though.
Not to mention the increased mana return from a cunning pet, which can result in less time in viper.
So then I started thinking, 2 talent points difference for what? Extra BA ticks. Well how much of a dps gain are those extra BA ticks?
Actually there are 2 things you gain from resourcefulness:
1) More BA ticks
2) More uptime of the BA 6% damage bonus
According to the numbers I ran, the difference between 2/3 resourcefulness and 3/3 resourcefulness came out to 1-4dps. So basically the additional LnL procs from 2/3 brought the extra BA ticks and additional BA damage bonus to pretty much a wash. The difference between 1/3 and 2/3 was 27dps for me though, so I think I'll stick with 2 pts.
Running the numbers on where to put the extra point, imp hawk seems to be the best choice at the moment for me, but I did some testing with the 2pc T9 bonus and with that imp stings would pull ahead slightly (even with the weaker 2pc T9 implementation we're working with).
One thing to keep in mind if you go the focused aim route btw, is that right now focused aim is only giving partial expertise benefit to pets. It's not a large amount of dps difference either way, but it's not performing at the same value as regular hit.
1) I'm at the point where I have the ability to hit the ArP cap with Grim Toll, yet when I use the spreadsheet and gem up with ArP my DPS drops signficiantly in the spreadsheet (2k fully buffed). I haven't tested it yet as I don't want to waste all the gold/etc. I figure it might be something I'm doing wrong with the spreadsheet? I tried it with both the Survival Spec I use and the MM I have as backup. Neither had the results I was expecting. Do I need more ArP on the eq?
2) On the WotLK spreadsheet, does the difference in DPS translate directly to what I'd see on recount/wws/etc.? I.E if it says that I'd gain 5dp, would/should that appear under the same circmstances/actionss as 5 more DPS?
Lastly, is it just me or are the EQ upgrades available with triumph badges just not worth it without the trophy? When I do the gear planner, none of the pieces offers much in the way of an upgrade without the trophy, and it seems like a bunch of tokens to lose over a smallish upgrade.
As to 2), I doubt you'd ever see a 5 DPS spreadsheet difference in "real" circumstances. Critluck, Procluck, Movement, Debuffs, Buffs, there is just too much RNG going on. You may have noticed that you don't DPS the same from try to try.
After doing some very rough math, I came to the conclusion that the difference in BA ticks between 1/3 Resourcefulness and 3/3 Resourcefulness, is about 1% dps. The difference in LnL procs is neglible. So I'm thinking a 1% dps gain for 2 talent points is a poor investment.
I did some testing on the spread sheet to see the difference in these specs.
Test were run with 3 variations of a standard 0/15/56 build and assuming best raid buffs/debuffs on a standard 6 min fight setup, and given my current gear.
Shot rotation: Rapid fire > Kill Shot > ES > BA > AS > Serp. Sting > SS
Variation 1 was with 1/3 in Resourcefulness, 3/3 EW, and 3/3 in Hunting Party.
Shot rotation: Rapid fire > Kill Shot > BA> ES > AS > Serp. Sting > SS
I got the exact same results as listed above for each variation.
So it would appear that the 0/15/56 build putting 2/3 Res, 2/3 EW, 3/3 HP offers the best dps (+18 over 1/3 Res) regardless of prioritization between BA and ES.
Did you have a build putting 1/3 in Res that offered a greater dps gain than 2/3 Res, 2/3 EW, 3/3 HP? If so can you please post the exact build with spreadsheet numbers.
Ehhh that is a tough one. That 1.5% crit is nice. I personally doubt the Shard of the Crystal Heart would be a great choice with other options that provide hit without the haste use option. The shoulders would be the best choice IMO just based off the fact that you won't need to give up gem slots and you'll be working towards your set bonus. The shoulders seem like they'd have many more advantages, even with hit stat allocation, than the other two options, but I guess I'd ask myself how reasonable is it that you can obtain those shoulders?
Glyphs, Steady, Serpent Sting, Explosive. Skinning. I usually set up the spreadsheet with minimal buffs. BOM, and 40 Ag food. So it’s the only part of the sheet not fully ramped up.
Wolf Pet. The World of Warcraft Armory
I know this spec is not dps optimal, but I really like having Heart of the Pheonix.
Gear – I assume you can just download from Armory link. I have Skinning.
This gives me
Hunter – 3373 Dps
Pet – 537 Dps
Total 3921 Dps
If I take one point from Go For the Throat (Without doing anything else)
Hunter 3373
Pet 476 Dps
Total 3850 Dps
So that the situation is not confused between comparisons, I do not use Aimed, or MultiShot in any of the rotation tests. In short, what I believe I am seeing is a straight 71 Dps loss from the pet by reducing it’s available focus by 50%.
This situation you describe seems entirely tracable to your minimal buff setup. Weak mana regen is definitely going to hurt the value of multishot/aimed, although you have to remember that the mana considerations will vary sharply from fight to fight depending on the length and other factors. The lack of a lot of standard raid buffs also affect your crit rate, which will hurt your mana regen as well as your pet's focus regen, thus amplifying the value of that 2nd point in go for the throat. Taking your gear and enabling all raid buffs, the 2nd point in go for the throat gives you no damage gain at all and multishot/aimed is worth using.
Is might really the only buff you have available in your raids? That seems pretty unusual. Even in 10 man I would think you'd have at least a few others.
Your situation is a good example of why people should check for themselves with the spreadsheet or website before making talent and gear changes, because different raid environments most definitely will have an impact on the effectiveness of general best practices.
08/16/09, 6:04 AM
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