75 is the max for PvP hunters. This is suficient to counter resistances such as that given by Improved Mark of the Wild. 70 for most Pally resistances.
Given that you'll ideally end a fight at or close to 0 mana, it's about timing things correctly more than hitting certain percentages, in my opinion. In long, fairly drawn-out fights, like XT hard mode, then there's no real drawback to going into Viper up to 100% if you find yourself going dry quickly (and assuming you're not on spark duty).
Mmm I agree there's no real drawback, but I was also wondering if there is a percentage of mana that results in the least time spent in viper even in long fights, i.e. the % max mana that results in the lowest dps drop. In a XT hard mode (sans spark duty) 10 man I find that with replenishment, I go OOM too fast if I get to 50% mana, but there's not too much of a time difference between 80% and 100%. I may be wrong but I've noticed that there seems to be a point where the time gains plateau off somewhat due to replenishment uptime.
Originally Posted by SpartanKillian
In Twins or Jaraxxus hardmode, for example, you know you need to be able to deal burst damage at certain times so it's obviously better to Viper right before these windows instead of worrying about hitting X%. It's more significant to line up your Viper time around fight-based events and yours various CDs.
Hmm yeah it definitely makes sense to viper up to sufficient mana for sudden burst requirements. I hadn't really considered that, thanks.
Originally Posted by Thetalisker
That depends. If you're in a fight where you go OOM when the boss at 40% HP, that means your mana has lasted the first 60%. Assuming mana consumption stays the same throughout the fight, you'd only need roughly 70% (40/60) of your mana to be able to finish him off. This way you'll spend as little time as possible in Viper.
I hadn't thought of that either!
Originally Posted by Thetalisker
That's absolutely viable - switching aspects is instant, so you're not missing out on any cooldowns. It can however make for an awkward rotation. You might consider just staying in Viper to get your mana back ASAP so you can basically forget about that afterwards and focus on your shots again - unless you get a LNL proc, in which case switching to Dragonhawk is the only sensible thing to do.
On fights where the boss is close to his demise, you'd be popping a mana-potions, of course... ;-)
Heh I was thinking it might get messy, switching back and forth. My mana would be jumping up and down like crazy. However, given perfect timing and switching, I wonder if that would result in a dps increase or there would be no significant differences...
I don't think I'll try that though, seems like a lot of work and training to get that good at coordination ^^
75 is the max for PvP hunters. This is suficient to counter resistances such as that given by Improved Mark of the Wild. 70 for most Pally resistances.
Well, Paladin Aura's are 130 Resistance at level 80, and they can stack with Mark. The 'cap' for a Druid and Paladin team would be 205, but even then there is a paladin talent to double the Aura's effect for a short time, giving a total of 335. Not many healing paladins will use a resistance aura though, so keep that in mind. The shaman totems are also 130 resistance (and stack with mark too).
However, given perfect timing and switching, I wonder if that would result in a dps increase or there would be no significant differences...
It would give a DPS increase over firing them off in Viper, but also don't forget about your other shots. If you switch out of Viper all the time, it will take longer to get back to a decent level of mana. So what about your Serpent Sting and Black Arrow? If you use them while in Viper they do less damage, and since it will take longer to get your mana back to full, you'll likely be losing more DPS on those than you would if you didn't switch.
I haven't tested or simulated any of this, mind you, but I myself stay in Viper unless I get a LNL proc.
Well, Paladin Aura's are 130 Resistance at level 80, and they can stack with Mark. The 'cap' for a Druid and Paladin team would be 205, but even then there is a paladin talent to double the Aura's effect for a short time, giving a total of 335. Not many healing paladins will use a resistance aura though, so keep that in mind. The shaman totems are also 130 resistance (and stack with mark too).
As a main paladin, I can assure you that MotW does not stack with resistance auras. We can double it for 10 seconds to 260 resistance once every 2 minutes. Nor do shaman totems stack, as I have seen in several Onyxia and Ignis raids where I have never seen my Fire Resistance go over 130 or 260 with Aura Mastery up.
Hej guys! my status in guild is casual, so i am not raiding atm. I only raid some pugs and try to improve my gear as best as I can. Momentarely I am getting Crusader's Dragonscale Bracers - Spell - World of Warcraft done. You maybe have any advice what more to improve?
I get aprox +50 dps more from femaldwarf if I put 2 points from Hunting party and 1 point from Expose weaknes and put the into Improved stings? so the new spec would be 0/18/53
I'm going to post the new PTR 3.3 patch notes since no one did.
Beast Mastery
•Mend Pet, Scare Beast had the mana cost of their lower ranks reduced.
Marksmanship
•Silencing Shot additional tooltip text - Non-player victim spellcasting is also interrupted for 3 sec.
•Aimed Shot, Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot, Serpent Sting, Volley, Hunter's Mark had the mana cost of their lower ranks reduced.
Survival
•Explosive Trap now burns all enemies for [ Ranged AP + 900 ] additional Fire damage over 20 sec. (Up from 900)
•Point of No Escape now increases the critical strike chance of all of your attacks on targets affected by your Frost Trap, Freezing Trap and Freezing Arrow. (Old - "Increases the critical strike chance of all attacks")
•Misdirection redesigned - The current party or raid member targeted will received the threat caused by your next damaging attack and all actions taken for 4 sec afterwards.
•Lock and Load now has a 22 sec cooldown. (Down from 30 sec)
•Wyvern Sting, Mongoose Bite, Raptor Strike, Counterattack, Freezing Trap, Explosive Shot had the mana cost of their lower ranks reduced.
..and earlier Patch notes:
Pets
•Avoidance: Now reduces the damage your pet takes from area-of-effect damage by 30/60/90%, but no longer applies to area-of-effect damage caused by other players.
Hunters only use Spell Pen for their PvP sets to get around resistances provided by GotW, Auras, etc. due to the majority of their damage coming from Explosive Shot or Chimera Shot.
It is not so much that the majority of our damage comes from ES or ChS, as it is that the entirety of our _burst_ comes from those sources. Burst is supposed to be bursty. When 25-50% of that burst is getting partially resisted, our damage flattens out in a predicatble, easy to heal through way.
Originally Posted by Furnurgler
75 is the max for PvP hunters. This is suficient to counter resistances such as that given by Improved Mark of the Wild. 70 for most Pally resistances.
75 is a good number. 130 is another. You should gear for the biggest advantage against team compositions your comp is weak against. For example, if you're a survival hunter, and are having a hard time with shaman teams(that are using fire resist totem!! Not all of them do), you should get 130 spell pen to completely counteract fire resist. If you look around on Arena Junkies, you'll see top rated MM and SV hunters all have somewhere between 75 and 130 spellpen. Epic gems have made going a little higher less of a pain. BM is almost burstless to begin with, and much less reliant on magic damage(just arcane shot, maybe a sting or 2), and so they tend not to gem in this way.
The BEST source of spell pen, point for point, is the 35 spell pen to cloak enchant. In gem sockets, you're looking at a 1/1 conversion with agi or some other stat you value.
I am currently using this build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft with one point removed from Resourcefullness and put into Improved Stings since I recently aquired the 2pc T9 bonus set. According to the spreadsheet, if I remove the point from Improved Stings and Aimed Shot and puts those points into 3/3 Resourcefullness and 3/3 Hunting Party I will see a 1dps increase if I replace Aimed Shot with Multi-Shot in my rotation. What would be the downside to that build and using Multi-Shot? I fell like I am missing something.
Am I missing something with point of no escape in the patch notes? The claimed new version is the version we have now, and the supposed "old version" is different. Does that mean it will maybe be going to a straight crit buff? Or is this just a big misprint all together?
As far as dropping aimed shot for MS goes I would not do it. Just because a spreadsheet gives you theory-crafted numbers that are better does not mean it's your best real world spec. The fact that aimed shot is an instant cast and can be fired on the run is more than enough reason to pick it up. Add to that the fact that it will not break CC and the debuff it applies makes it a must have for me. Fights like Faction Champions, Anub Arak, etc make it awesome. Especially if you run ten mans and do not always have that warrior/rogue.
According to the spreadsheet, if I remove the point from Improved Stings and Aimed Shot and puts those points into 3/3 Resourcefullness and 3/3 Hunting Party I will see a 1dps increase if I replace Aimed Shot with Multi-Shot in my rotation. What would be the downside to that build and using Multi-Shot? I fell like I am missing something.
There are 3 advantages beyond straightforward DPS that Aimed Shot brings over Multi-Shot.
Aimed Shot provides the Mortal Strike healing debuff.
Aimed Shot is instant and can therefore be used while you are in motion.
When you have CCed mobs around you cannot use Multi-Shot at the point where it is optimal in the rotation and will have to use Steady Shot instead.
Apart from this, it is generally a good idea to always use Multi-Shot in those places where you would be using Aimed Shot since there is often something else you can hit with it, which usually makes up the difference. Also, fewer buttons to press results in a smaller cognitive load, which seems like a trivial thing but can actually make a huge difference to many people.
Am I missing something with point of no escape in the patch notes? The claimed new version is the version we have now, and the supposed "old version" is different. Does that mean it will maybe be going to a straight crit buff? Or is this just a big misprint all together?
As far as I know, instead of doing what the tooltip says, PoNE currently gives you the crit bonus on all targets as long as you have something under the effect of your Freezing Trap/Arrow or Frost Trap. Therefore, you can freeze an add and get the crit bonus on the boss. I assume the patch note means that they are making PoNE do what the tooltip says.
I think the change to PoNE is that currently it increases crit chance of all attack (that means everybody, not just you) on the target if it's affected by one of the tree traps. The change will make it so that only your attacks will have increased crit chance, essentially nerfing it.
So what would be the best shot rotation now for a SV Hunter?
RF-ES-BA-SrpS-AiS-SS
Of course use KS when you get a chance. I've run the models with AiS and MS and they both are about the same with overall DPS, so I'm not sure which way to go.
Use Aimed shot if there is only one mob, or if you need the healing debuff. Use Multi if the attack will hit at least two mobs (iirc on faction champions multishot has the damage penalty though, so never use it there).
As far as the other shots go, I've been prioritizing serpent sting over black arrow due to 2t9. The rest is the same as your own.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
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12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
Just curious, with the changes to the Tier sets it seems like ArP is more valued over haste. So knowing we usually try to get enough haste to reduce SS to 1.5 gcd, it seems to me that gimping some haste for more ArP is the way to go?
Tbh, its very dependent on how the fight goes, I had the same issue, but and it could be different comp, or RNG like in Northrend Beast range is a factor on Icehowl, getting the debuff from the worms and having to move. But that really isnt much of a difference from what I personally seen in my chats to be worried about. And being SV different procs etc do effect our dps.
Also for Lord Jaxx, more RNG factors. Its just being part the encounter.
With my stats and being far below haste cap haste is still almost half what arp and crit are worth.
Has anyone considered forgoing haste completely and doing only 2 shots in between explosive shots? With gear available it's certainly possible to gear away from haste and have maybe ~100 haste rating at most. Gearing this way is preferable because of the poor returns on haste, and overall would be a dps increase naturally. This would put your steady shots at a 1.68 cast time, plus 3% from in raid if you have a ret paladin/moonkin. This means that if you had downtime on multi/aimed and dots that using 3 steady shots would delay your explosive shot by almost .6 seconds. Since my explosive shot does roughly 4.5 times the damage of my steady shot(and this also saves mana) it might be worthwhile to consider. Latency is also a factor, and could delay your steady shots even further.
With my stats and being far below haste cap haste is still almost half what arp and crit are worth.
Has anyone considered forgoing haste completely and doing only 2 shots in between explosive shots? With gear available it's certainly possible to gear away from haste and have maybe ~100 haste rating at most. Gearing this way is preferable because of the poor returns on haste, and overall would be a dps increase naturally. This would put your steady shots at a 1.68 cast time, plus 3% from in raid if you have a ret paladin/moonkin. This means that if you had downtime on multi/aimed and dots that using 3 steady shots would delay your explosive shot by almost .6 seconds. Since my explosive shot does roughly 4.5 times the damage of my steady shot(and this also saves mana) it might be worthwhile to consider. Latency is also a factor, and could delay your steady shots even further.
Before picking up the 3 258 haste items I have equipped now, I was at 0 haste rating, the spreadsheet still had a no-wait priority queue as my highest SV DPS (i.e. the "hit the highest damaging attack that's up, if not steady shot without caring how close you are to a better shot coming off cooldown" I'm using for MM). I only checked with the default wait time vs. 0 wait time though, in the MM case for the same rotation differences of a 10th of a second made a large difference, so perhaps more investigation for SV was merited.
Note that "gearing away from haste" means "gearing towards ArP", which increases the strength of steadyshot in relation to ES, which also pushes towards the "no-wait" case.
I am not trying to reduce the importance of spreadsheets anyhow, especially regarding the optimal shot-rotation feedback the latter deliver, though I'd like to share my experience of the past 5 months on figuring out what the ideal shot rotation of a SV hunter should look like.
I have concluded, after many tries to apply different spreadsheet configurations in-game, the following:
Even though different shot rotation setups resulted in varying DPS output, according to the spreadsheet outcomes, their application during a patchwerk-style fight resulted in a difference in dps that was negligible.
So, after all this experimentation, I realised that the best and easier to follow shot rotation should be one that's based on a first-come-first-serve pattern. The only thing one has to keep in mind is pop DoTs (BA and SS) at the beginning of the fight and keep them up thereafter, giving priority to KS, ExpS and AimedS (or Multi), with this order, while keeping Steady strictly as a filler. The latter should always be held back when a higher-prio shot is coming off CD in less than 1 sec.
This might seem like an overly-simplified method though it has worked for me and, presumably, all the other hunters who don't rely on any timer addons and want to keep manual control of their shooting strategy. This has managed to keep my dps at ~6.2k in 10mans and at ~7.1k in 25mans (figures varying according to mana efficiency and raid configuration of course).
Bottomline is, to my experience, shot rotation output from spreadsheets should be consulted but applied only to the point they are in line with the player's individual playstyle.
I think you have misunderstood the spreadsheet 'rotation' somewhat, as what you explain what you do it pretty much what it does. The list is a priority of skills. So essentially you have put your two DoTs on top of the list over KS and ES for instance.
Rotations are dead, pretty much everything these days are priorities. And I mean other classes too.
The set bonus from having two tier 9 pieces seems to make it worth doing some respeccing for the survival hunter... I realize most raiding hunters will continue to use Marksman, however when running the 5 man and in solo mode, I prefer the survival... I am curious however what others have considered dropping in order to put the three points into Improved Stings... It would seem that Hunting Party and Expose Weakness are the ones to cut... In addition, does anyone know how the Serpent Sting Glyph will affect the damage output???
Anyway, if you only want to go Survival for 5-mans it is somewhat pointless to go for Imp Stings. The gain over 2/3 EW and HP is there but not terribly great (50-60 DPS). And that is in a raid setting with buffs and debuffs. In 5-mans with no 13% spelldamage debuff (not to mention the fact that most of the health you deplete will not expend a full sting), far from as many crit bonusses etc etc, you not only lose a whole lot of the advantage in Serpent Sting with crits, but you also get a lot less EW uptime and you lose Replenishment which can be a major factor for smoothing runs in 5-mans for less downtime ("manabreak please guys").
Don't do it if you don't intend to use it for raiding, there are no advantages for 5-mans.
10/01/09, 9:29 PM
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